Newbie 1913 - game over!!

[the worst]

vote count 1.05

hearthstone1235 (1) : SaintAngelDFE
YellowSnow (1) : volxen
L84Dnr (0) :
DoubtingThomas (0) :
Roo (1) : brassherald
SaintAngelDFE (0) :
volxen (1) : YellowSnow
xwing (1) : hearthstone1235
brassherald (3) : DoubtingThomas, Roo, xwing

not voting: L84Dnr

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- vc was completely unnecessary but a pagetop is a pagetop
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- quack

[volxen]

I find it unlikely that players would admit to liking to play scum.

Being a dangerous scum player would increase the likelyhood of being lynched on that basis alone

.

What you are referring to in the bolded portion amounts to a policy lynch, which in general is anti-town unless there is a really, really good reason for doing so. Lynching someone solely on the basis that, if they are scum in the current ongoing game they are going to be really dangerous (based on their performance in previous scumgames), even if they haven't been scummy in the current ongoing game, is incredibly anti-town because they would be lynched over fear of how good they are at scum rather than because people are actually scumreading them in the current ongoing game. That's definitely not how Mafia is intended to be played, and over the long term policy lynching someone just because they are good at scum will lead to mislynches more often than not because everyone rolls town much more frequently than they do scum.

And regarding the first sentence, yes people do admit to enjoying playing scum in their ongoing town games. For example, in Newbie 1900 (link to the game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77781) Flavor Leaf (who was town and also the IC) openly

bragged

about how good he is at scum (links to some sample posts: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10562672, https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10565874, and https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10565878).

[hearthstone1235]

That's fair, actually. Best thing would be to not change your play style, right?

I suppose, though I wonder if the experience gained from playing more games would make any major shifts in one's playstyle.

Do you really think this was an attempt to try get people to lynch the IC? Why don't you think it was just typical day 1 pressure or even a little bit of kidding around?

Hmm, that's what the literal meaning seems to indicate. I think it is a possibility. I'm not sure how dangerous is an early L-2 is, it doesn't seem that dangerous to me because it is extremely unlikely that the IC would be hammered that early. and I think it wouldn't be the smartest of moves for scum if they just hammer.

I don't think they're kidding around. It is definitely possible that it is just a day 1 pressure vote. I think that possibility is even more likely. Though I find it hard to talk about pressure votes because they lose their kinda purpose once you mention that they are pressure votes. Which is why some people reply to questions asking for the reason for their votes with "Why not?".

But what doesn't sit right with me is, that they asked for a bandwagon after putting IC to L-2 without mentioning that it is L-2. Though they did post it after a votecount. It wasn't that obvious that brass was in danger of being lynched.

[hearthstone1235]

wagoning does not equate to lynch..did i say that anywhere or are you purposely misrepping me?
i said it was reachy, i didnt say it was scummy.. what kind of cases do you expect by page 2?

Wagoning does equate to voting. I do tend to say lynching a lot when I mean "lynch voting" by it. I thought it was clear from my message.

Or by "lynch" do you mean "lynch votes" as well? I'm pretty sure that you can't wagon without voting. What did you expect from suggesting to bandwagon brass? If another person hops on the bandwagon then they'd be at L-1 so early in the game.

I think that the definition of reachy is "Use small cases in order to get someone lynched(killed) without proper reasons", or "Trying to find any reasons however small to get a specific person to get lynched". I consider that as leaning on the scummy side. (Couldn't really find any documentation on its meaning), What do you think its meaning is?

do you think what you did was scummy?

Hmm, nope. And I don't think it was reachy based on what I think reachy means.

[hearthstone1235]

@brass, Do you have anything to say/any reads? You haven't been generating a lot of in-game content so far, if any.

@roo, How dangerous do you think L-2 is?

[brassherald]

@brass, Do you have anything to say/any reads? You haven't been generating a lot of in-game content so far, if any.

I play things close to the chest early for sure. That being said, I random voted Roo early because it was early to type, but I haven't liked his interactions too much and so I haven't moved my vote.

The super defensive response to someone asking about an L-2 wagon on me makes me uneasy.

[brassherald]

I find it unlikely that players would admit to liking to play scum.

Being a dangerous scum player would increase the likelyhood of being lynched on that basis alone

.

What you are referring to in the bolded portion amounts to a policy lynch, which in general is anti-town unless there is a really, really good reason for doing so. Lynching someone solely on the basis that, if they are scum in the current ongoing game they are going to be really dangerous (based on their performance in previous scumgames), even if they haven't been scummy in the current ongoing game, is incredibly anti-town because they would be lynched over fear of how good they are at scum rather than because people are actually scumreading them in the current ongoing game. That's definitely not how Mafia is intended to be played, and over the long term policy lynching someone just because they are good at scum will lead to mislynches more often than not because everyone rolls town much more frequently than they do scum.

And regarding the first sentence, yes people do admit to enjoying playing scum in their ongoing town games. For example, in Newbie 1900 (link to the game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77781) Flavor Leaf (who was town and also the IC) openly

bragged

about how good he is at scum (links to some sample posts: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10562672, https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10565874, and https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10565878).

I will reiterate that I have actually complained multiple times that I can't find a game where I roll third party. Like, legitimately would love to get Serial Killer in a game some day. Has not yet happened. But, I am also limiting my number of games so less chance until one of my games end so I can go and find an SK game.

Serial Killer seems fun to me, is what I'm saying.

[brassherald]

Oh, and volxen is town lean from that, forgot the game relevant portion to talk about my desire to be Third Party.

[YellowSnow]

That's one player. That hardly makes it common or the expected answer.

[brassherald]

That's one player. That hardly makes it common or the expected answer.

Why does there have to be a common or expected answer? The question itself is about personal preference.

I mean, again, someone's preference does not determine their role in this game. I will restate that mafiascum randomizes roles and alignments, you cannot actually queue up to be town or mafia specifically unless its something similar to the Greatest Idea mafia (I think that's the one).

You can probably find the two Greatest Idea mafia where we have this discussion, actually. Micc ran both, they were micros and I was also in both, though one was as ManWithNoName.

But, legitimately, your preference does not and cannot establish your actual alignment in most games. Anything that makes it seem that way is explicitly against the rules of the site.

[YellowSnow]

My point is that answering that question is like answering when people ask "are you town" at the beginning of the game.

[brassherald]

My point is that answering that question is like answering when people ask "are you town" at the beginning of the game.

Again, it is not the same, because preference does not play into roles assigned. I just want this to be perfectly clear for anyone who may be doubting, mods are required to randomize roles and keep a record of randomizing. Your personal preference has nothing AT ALL to do with your role. Suggesting otherwise is suggesting that the games do not follow site rules.

[L84Dnr]

Hi all. I just got subbed in and am catching up on the game.

No prior experience on this site but 3 previous games on another site with a slightly different format.

[brassherald]

Also, based on the tone and the amount of push Yellow Snow is really levelling on this relatively useless question in the first place, I'd like to give early town lean here. I feel like a scum partner would tell him to drop it by now if he was in the scum thread.

My next post, in a few minutes provided my boss does not come into my office will be an IC teaching content post, which I will differentiate by just not talking about the in game content. I don't think I've mentioned that's what I am trying to do. I'll talk about read lists and why I don't like them, but some do.

[YellowSnow]

I'm not saying it's an important discussion, I'm just giving my opinion and feel my position is the right one. I appreciate your town lean though.

[brassherald]

So, read lists are something people will occasionally ask for which is where you actually tier your reads on everyone.

Traditionally, the top of the list is town, some people put themselves at the very top for posture, they look something like this, using names from not this game outside of myself so no one thinks I am actually doing a read list here.
{brassherald}
{Nauci}
{Mathdino}
{ceejayvinoya}
{Gamma Emerald}

So, there, it would be I am mod confirmed town, Nauci is a town lean, Mathdino is neutral, ceejay is a scum lean, and Gamma Emerald is a straight up scum read.

Now, some people do this often and I will not ever be able to explain why, because I hate them, but it's useful to know how to read them.

Why I don't like readlists

There's two reasons here. First, they are extremely easy to fake. Take people's names, assemble them into a list that orders them, and provide no real information. I don't find it compelling to just have a list without reasons. Even with reasons, it would not be, to me, immediately clear why Gamma would be scum and ceejay is not as strong of a read.

Second, they just are not very useful to me, personally. My reads are more abstract, in general, ranking them is pretty tough, and I don't even like locking anyone as town ever. That's just how I play the game. Once I put something into a read list like this, I am less likely to question my reads later on. It's just the way I work. I would need the read list in literally every post with updates as things happen to realistically help me with my game, and no one has time for that.

So, can you do a read list?

Of course! I'm all for doing what works for you. I think I am at the point where no one will ever convince me that it is helpful, but you should be forming your own opinions constantly and doing what is best for your thinking and your play style. If a read list is how you do that, so be it. Don't let this idiot stand in your way, but, now you have both the information on them and probably the only person on site who vocally opposes them.

[L84Dnr]

I find it unlikely that players would admit to liking to play scum.

Being a dangerous scum player would increase the likelyhood of being lynched on that basis alone

.

What you are referring to in the bolded portion amounts to a policy lynch, which in general is anti-town unless there is a really, really good reason for doing so.

Misrep. Having an increased chance of being lynched because you're a dangerous scum player (dubious) is not the same as a policy lynch.

Lynching someone solely on the basis that, if they are scum in the current ongoing game they are going to be really dangerous (based on their performance in previous scumgames), even if they haven't been scummy in the current ongoing game, is incredibly anti-town because they would be lynched over fear of how good they are at scum rather than because people are actually scumreading them in the current ongoing game. That's definitely not how Mafia is intended to be played, and over the long term policy lynching someone just because they are good at scum will lead to mislynches more often than not because everyone rolls town much more frequently than they do scum.

Agreed with all the rest though. Just because you

enjoy

playing scum doesn't even mean that you're good at it and is no indicator of what the randomizer gave you this game. NAI.

[L84Dnr]

Roo, you're being unusually quiet. Perhaps a little pressure on your wagon will get your tongue wagging.

VOTE: Roo

[L84Dnr]

Why I don't like readlists

There's two reasons here. First, they are extremely easy to fake. Take people's names, assemble them into a list that orders them, and provide no real information. I don't find it compelling to just have a list without reasons. Even with reasons, it would not be, to me, immediately clear why Gamma would be scum and ceejay is not as strong of a read.

Second, they just are not very useful to me, personally. My reads are more abstract, in general, ranking them is pretty tough, and I don't even like locking anyone as town ever. That's just how I play the game. Once I put something into a read list like this, I am less likely to question my reads later on. It's just the way I work. I would need the read list in literally every post with updates as things happen to realistically help me with my game, and no one has time for that.

Decent arguments against them, but what about the Pros?

- They can be easy to fake, especially if you just have a list without any reasons, but unless you're talented later day readlists with reasons get trickier. Now scum has to say, "Brass looks scummy because, err.. umm... reasons..." It's one more thing that scum has to lie about and one more place to look for tells.

- It helps keep town informed about your suspicions if you get mislynched or NKed. You don't take it to the grave with you.

[brassherald]

Why I don't like readlists

There's two reasons here. First, they are extremely easy to fake. Take people's names, assemble them into a list that orders them, and provide no real information. I don't find it compelling to just have a list without reasons. Even with reasons, it would not be, to me, immediately clear why Gamma would be scum and ceejay is not as strong of a read.

Second, they just are not very useful to me, personally. My reads are more abstract, in general, ranking them is pretty tough, and I don't even like locking anyone as town ever. That's just how I play the game. Once I put something into a read list like this, I am less likely to question my reads later on. It's just the way I work. I would need the read list in literally every post with updates as things happen to realistically help me with my game, and no one has time for that.

Decent arguments against them, but what about the Pros?

- They can be easy to fake, especially if you just have a list without any reasons, but unless you're talented later day readlists with reasons get trickier. Now scum has to say, "Brass looks scummy because, err.. umm... reasons..." It's one more thing that scum has to lie about and one more place to look for tells.

- It helps keep town informed about your suspicions if you get mislynched or NKed. You don't take it to the grave with you.

I'll accept this as a valid counter argument to mine, and a differing viewpoint, but I will usually let people know any strong reads when I am about to be lynched or if I think I'm going to be NKed.

I also do feel people accept read lists as basically analysis, which I completely disagree with. It may just be a culture of the site thing.

[xwing]

[snip]
But what doesn't sit right with me is, that they asked for a bandwagon after putting IC to L-2 without mentioning that it is L-2. Though they did post it after a votecount. It wasn't that obvious that brass was in danger of being lynched.

i know this isnt addressed to me, so im just gonna ask the last part..
do you mean if i indicated that it was L-2, it would be fine with you?
so is your issue with my vote being the unannounced L-2? or the appeal to wagon the IC?

wagoning does not equate to lynch..did i say that anywhere or are you purposely misrepping me?
i said it was reachy, i didnt say it was scummy.. what kind of cases do you expect by page 2?

Wagoning does equate to voting. I do tend to say lynching a lot when I mean "lynch voting" by it. I thought it was clear from my message.

Or by "lynch" do you mean "lynch votes" as well? I'm pretty sure that you can't wagon without voting. What did you expect from suggesting to bandwagon brass? If another person hops on the bandwagon then they'd be at L-1 so early in the game.

I think that the definition of reachy is "Use small cases in order to get someone lynched(killed) without proper reasons", or "Trying to find any reasons however small to get a specific person to get lynched". I consider that as leaning on the scummy side. (Couldn't really find any documentation on its meaning), What do you think its meaning is?

do you think what you did was scummy?

Hmm, nope. And I don't think it was reachy based on what I think reachy means.

huh..if by your definition it wasn't scummy, why would you want me to vote for it, when i said it was reachy, but i didnt say it was scummy?
reachy reasoning for me means it's a stretch..
so for me yes your reasoning on suspecting volxen based on 7-minute joke is reachy, but i didnt find it scummy at that point, hence the "meh" comment..
whether you are trying to get someone lynched or not doesn't make it any more or less reachy..

@brass, Do you have anything to say/any reads? You haven't been generating a lot of in-game content so far, if any.

I play things close to the chest early for sure. That being said, I random voted Roo early because it was early to type, but I haven't liked his interactions too much and so I haven't moved my vote.

The super defensive response to someone asking about an L-2 wagon on me makes me uneasy.

^i concur..

[xwing]

Wagoning does equate to voting. I do tend to say lynching a lot when I mean "lynch voting" by it. I thought it was clear from my message.

Or by "lynch" do you mean "lynch votes" as well? I'm pretty sure that you can't wagon without voting. What did you expect from suggesting to bandwagon brass? If another person hops on the bandwagon then they'd be at L-1 so early in the game.

sorry, forgot to comment on the rest of your reply to me..
a wagon does not result in a lynch if there are not enough votes on it..
a wagon is indeed needed to get a lynch, but will not always result in one (see above)..
i dont understand what you mean by "lynch vote" compared to just a "vote"..

i'll throw the question back at you..what do you think can be achieved by forming a wagon? i even specifically chose the IC, who is the most experienced player among all of us..
my action loses it's power by me needing to explain it..

[xwing]

Roo, you're being unusually quiet. Perhaps a little pressure on your wagon will get your tongue wagging.

VOTE: Roo

hey l8, what do you think of the rest of the player list?

[brassherald]

First game, so I may need a bit of help.

Do you have any experience at all with mafia or werewolf games before this site?

Like in person games, or Throne of Lies or Town of Salem?

[the worst]

quack