Newbie 1913 - game over!!

[YellowSnow]

Nope, I haven't had the time for it, you've avoided posting altogether for a good portion of day 1.

[the worst]

vote count 1.12

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (3) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr
L84Dnr (0) :
DoubtingThomas (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (1) : YellowSnow
SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, brassherald
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (1) : DoubtingThomas

not voting:

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- xwing is also coincidentally v/la this Monday
- quack

[volxen]

Volxen, as for your referencing me calling it "unfortunate" that Roo's answer seemed genuine and unrushed,

I only called in unfortunate because my

attempt

at getting a read ended in nothing more than "Possible town."

I understand that this can be seen as a good thing, but our goal here is to figure out who is scum, so in my opinion while a town read is helpful it was not what I was hoping for in the long run, as it would have been more fortunate to get a possible scum read, at least short-term.

Volxen, what do you think of this response? the bolded part gives me slight town vibes because town is pressured to find scum.

Though I'm a little confused on what he means by long run and short-term. @Saint, can you elaborate on that a little bit?


Anyway, I'd appreciate a little more pressure on YellowSnow for now. VOTE: YellowSnow. Would like to hear his answers and reactions to what have been said. Also, @Yellow, what do you think of Saint?

@Hearth, yes, Saint's response did give me some town vibes, and has caused me to be less certain that he is scum. This is why I've been engaging with him but haven't voted for him and placed him at L-1. This is Saint's very first game on site (he registered on 1/14/19), and what I would normally expect from newb!scum in this scenario is to take the "easy" route, which in this case would be Saint doubling down on his initial Roo scumread. Especially since Roo has been on Saint's wagon for some time, the "easy" route for scum!Saint would be to scumpaint Roo as the scum on his wagon. Instead, Saint admitted that when he took a deeper look at Roo's slot, all he could come up with is "probably town". Now, more advanced and experienced scum can and do fake re-evaluate their reads like this, because re-evaluating reads is something townies regularly do, and if done right it can be used as a tactic by scum to make themselves look more towny. However, this is not something I would expect from a brand new scum player in their first game on site, so unless Saint is being heavily coached on how to write his posts by a much more experienced scumbuddy, he was most likely being sincere in sharing his "disappointment" that his re-evaluation of Roo's slot led him to the conclusion that Roo is town.

And if Saint is scum and was coached on fake re-evaluating his read of Roo, I think that same scumbuddy would have also coached Saint on how to “fix” his botched up post 141. Instead, in post 247 (his second follow-up post to post 141) he claims to *still* not be sure what he meant to write in post 141 (for example, he talks about how he think he might have meant to replace my name with Yellowsnow's name, but he isn’t sure about this).

@l8:
i feel like saint's got no original reasoning, mainly pushing what others have stated..
his first vote on hearth was echoing what i thought..
his second vote was on blank (not sure if it technically counted coz of the formatting, but the intent was there), who was inactive/site flaked..
his third vote on roo was echoing what others were saying..
he's not even engaging tried to engage them..
so his votes also feel opportunistic and just wanting a lynch instead of trying to sort..

For the most part I'm trying to figure out how forum mafia works honestly, as stated before I've only really played Town of Salem which is much more fast paced than this, trying to learn as I go. I'm not trying to lead for any lynching based on the fact that I'm not sure how well any scum reading I might be able to pick up would actually be.

Same here. I'm used to a 24 hour day cycle, which is much faster paced. Posting will help you with that.

Right now I have to agree with xwing.

VOTE: SaintAngelDFE

So tell us, what are your reads? On Day 1 they're always weak, so no worries there.

Right now? My reads are that xwing is likely town, he is jumping around a lot and searching from information.
Brass makes me nervous because he is experienced, I'm not sure I'm ready or even able to make an accurate claim on him yet.
The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded? But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed. It was a reach and I should have voiced it.
I don't have too much of a read on Volxen based on similar issues as Brass, however I feel a little more sure that he's town.
Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.
DoubtingThomas is talkative and definitely trying to push forward to get information, but he hasn't really pushed for any. I think that's suspicious, but like I said I'm still learning.

My suspects right now are between Volxen and DT. VOTE: volxen

@l8:
i feel like saint's got no original reasoning, mainly pushing what others have stated..
his first vote on hearth was echoing what i thought..
his second vote was on blank (not sure if it technically counted coz of the formatting, but the intent was there), who was inactive/site flaked..
his third vote on roo was echoing what others were saying..
he's not even engaging tried to engage them..
so his votes also feel opportunistic and just wanting a lynch instead of trying to sort..

For the most part I'm trying to figure out how forum mafia works honestly, as stated before I've only really played Town of Salem which is much more fast paced than this, trying to learn as I go. I'm not trying to lead for any lynching based on the fact that I'm not sure how well any scum reading I might be able to pick up would actually be.

Same here. I'm used to a 24 hour day cycle, which is much faster paced. Posting will help you with that.

Right now I have to agree with xwing.

VOTE: SaintAngelDFE

So tell us, what are your reads? On Day 1 they're always weak, so no worries there.

Right now? My reads are that xwing is likely town, he is jumping around a lot and searching from information.
Brass makes me nervous because he is experienced, I'm not sure I'm ready or even able to make an accurate claim on him yet.
The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded? But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed. It was a reach and I should have voiced it.
I don't have too much of a read on Volxen based on similar issues as Brass, however I feel a little more sure that he's town.
Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.
DoubtingThomas is talkative and definitely trying to push forward to get information, but he hasn't really pushed for any. I think that's suspicious, but like I said I'm still learning.

My suspects right now are between Volxen and DT. VOTE: volxen

Wait, Volxen you are more sure is town than me, and he's a top suspect?

Your reads don't match your vote, explain ASAP

My bad for the late response to this one - long day at work. I had been typing this in between a couple of meetings and must have honestly gotten mixed up while reading it back through, no real excuse as to why I added Volxen or voted him.

I need to start re-reading what I type, especially if I'm going to try and post while at work apparently. My only "scum read" is on DT honestly, but I'm not completely sure about Yellow or Brass still.


VOTE: DoubtingThomas

My bad for the late response to this one - long day at work. I had been typing this in between a couple of meetings and must have honestly gotten mixed up while reading it back through, no real excuse as to why I added Volxen or voted him.

I need to start re-reading what I type, especially if I'm going to try and post while at work apparently. My only "scum read" is on DT honestly, but I'm not completely sure about Yellow or Brass still.

sorry saint, im not sold on your explanation..
if it was a mistype or mix up, then you should had have just one scum read and not two?
also, DT and volxen are waaaay too distinct from each other to have them mixed up..
lastly, your reads are almost all null or back tracking..
like what's your case on DT? he's "pushing forward for info but then not really pushing"? i dont get what you're saying..

I have no particular excuse outside of repeating the fact that I had meetings in between typing my post, my mind was in two different places.

It was likely that I had meant to include Yellow at the time instead of Volxen and merely gotten mixed up, but I'm not completely sure at this point

.

My read on DT was just that he is essentially beating around the bush, he wants information but at the time he hadn't particularly pushed on anyone like others have. Reading posts since then I want to say that his wall of text was either him getting too "into character" or an attempt at misdirection of some sort, I'm not sure how to read that one yet.

Volxen, as for your referencing me calling it "unfortunate" that Roo's answer seemed genuine and unrushed, I only called in unfortunate because my attempt at getting a read ended in nothing more than "Possible town." I understand that this can be seen as a good thing, but our goal here is to figure out who is scum, so in my opinion while a town read is helpful it was not what I was hoping for in the long run, as it would have been more fortunate to get a possible scum read, at least short-term.

I would think that newb!scum Saint would be pretty panicked over how badly he botched up post 141, and his scumbuddy would have helped him come up with a detailed response to account for all of the errors he made in that post. So the fact that he is still claiming he isn’t really sure what he meant to write in post 141 is more likely to come from newb!town Saint rather than newb!scum Saint.

[SaintAngelDFE]

In post 181, hearthstone1235 wrote:In post 141, SaintAngelDFE wrote:The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded? But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed.

It was a reach and I should have voiced it.

Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.Don't you find it suspicious that Yellow hasn't done that much? Can you elaborate on the red part?

By the red part I had meant that I should have explained why I was voting him when I did, I realize now that it would have been more helpful for getting the information I was hoping for.

@Volxen, do people really get friends to coach them in matches? That kind of defeats the purpose of a learning curve in my eyes. The most I've ever gotten were stories and a small explanation on the difference between this game and Town of Salem (Not including the duration, that much was obvious) and then basically told the only way I'll really learn is by playing.

@Hearth, long term/short term is based on my being used to a faster paced game, I'm much more used to trying to find as accurate a scum read I can before pushing someone, because in the game I'm used to a bad lynch can easily cost you the game, there's not enough time for a full discussion on each slip going either way so if I wagon one person it would normally lead to one to two other mislynches, usually ending in a loss. In the short term I want to find scum as fast as possible and be completely sure about it, but long term I understand that confirming town will end in a win if the game is played out near perfect. It's looking like gameplay on this level there is no real short term, as long as I get good then I should be able to get accurate reads early. It's basically just how I'm used to playing versus how I should be playing that influenced my calling it unfortunate.

Like I said, I definitely have a town lean from Roo, and repeating my possible scum reads; I'm still not trusting DT and I definitely understand the wagon on Yellow, but I am hesitant to vote on him (Putting him at L-1 I believe) and I would like to see more posts explaining some of his behavior like I've been pushed/trying to do.

Still no confident reads from Brass, but that's likely me being intimidated as a newer player and knowing that if he is town, he could be crucial for us later in the game.

Let me know if I missed any questions, I try to reread through recent posts as I make my replies to check for that, but there's always that chance.

[brassherald]

"IC_Question": What if scum plays exactly as they would if they were town? Wouldn't it be impossible to catch them?

@brass, Do you have anything to say/any reads? You haven't been generating a lot of in-game content so far, if any.

I play things close to the chest early for sure. That being said, I random voted Roo early because it was early to type, but I haven't liked his i

nteractions

too much and so I haven't moved my vote.

The super defensive response to someone asking about an L-2 wagon on me makes me uneasy.

What kind of interactions didn't you like, it implies that there is more than one interaction, although he only posted 3 posts at that time.

I also do think I might have confused Roo with someone else earlier since I did mention something about his reaction to my wagon, but I think he was actually on the other side of the conversation than what I had thought.

When did you do that? Can you elaborate more?

Okay, answered first part already.

Second part was exactly what I said, the interactions of someone who was super defensive about an L-2 wagon, but tying in the third one, I think it may have not been Roo who was that super defensive person in the first place, so third answer is when I made the post that the second question was directed at.

I could probably go back and check who was actually that defensive about L-2, but it was early and spit in the ocean compared to the rest of the game so far. Those are not enough to factor into my reads anymore, even. So much more has happened, and I'm happy with my vote on Saint.

I still do not like how Saint is hedging his bets by claiming he can't get a read on me, but also heavily implying he's scum reading me. I feel like his reads on my slot are fully setting up that he's going to use these to be opportunistic and join a wagon if a real one pops up.

He's my top suspect still, did not like his answer to why he voted incorrectly before, and I'm not liking this "newer player who's so intimidated" act

[brassherald]

I guess now is a good time to talk a bit about V/LA and weekends around here.

As you may have noticed, XWing has VLA on all weekends, that means limited access, so generally, the prod timer is given 1.5x length for them. Being VLA does not excuse you from posting completely, and it is frowned upon to abuse VLA to avoid playing the game, it is simply an alternative to dropping from the game when you can't constantly check in.

There is also a setting to display you are VLA for a duration of time in your User Control Panel, conveniently located at the top of the page. I encourage you to use it if and when you go V/LA

While I'm on it,

@mod I'll be VLA from February 4-9

Now, weekends themselves are generaly low activity anyway, people are probably off doing other things. It just happens, that's part of the culture of mafiascum. Please don't let the low weekend activity scare you away from the site.

[volxen]

@Volxen, do people really get friends to coach them in matches? That kind of defeats the purpose of a learning curve in my eyes. The most I've ever gotten were stories and a small explanation on the difference between this game and Town of Salem (Not including the duration, that much was obvious) and then basically told the only way I'll really learn is by playing.

To be clear, getting coached by someone

OUTSIDE

of the game is always against MafiaScum rules -- you cannot talk about ongoing games outside of the game thread. So when I was talking about coaching, I was talking about one scum coaching another scum in the Mafia PT. As town, you cannot really coach someone else or be coached yourself, since the only people you can talk about the game with are the other players in the game, and you aren't 100% certain of anyone else's alignment until they flip or become confirmed town (cop clear, etc.).*

*In newbie games at least, this is always the case. Outside of newbie games, hydras are allowed in some game setups (where multiple people play on the same account), and some game setups have roles like masons (where multiple townies are aware of each other being town and have a PT to communicate in with each other). So outside of newbie games it is possible to be "coached" as town by someone else you know for sure is town (e.g., your hydra partner(s) or a fellow Mason), but in newbie games when people talk about "coaching" it's almost always referring to a more experienced scum helping a lesser experienced scumbuddy in the Mafia PT.

So in short, what I was saying is that since you are a brand new player on this site, the way you have been posting recently is not consistent with what I would expect if you were scum in this game and had a more experienced scumbuddy coaching you in the Mafia PT.

[the worst]

vote count 1.13

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (3) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr
L84Dnr (0) :
DoubtingThomas (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (1) : YellowSnow
SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, brassherald
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (1) : DoubtingThomas

not voting:

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- prodding DoubtingThomas
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- xwing is also coincidentally v/la this Monday
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

[Roo]

Still no confident reads from Brass, but that's likely me being intimidated as a newer player and knowing that if he is town, he could be crucial for us later in the game.

If Brass wasn’t the IC and this was just a game with 9 random players from this site, what do you think your read on him would be?

[volxen]

I'm not going to reply because I've been voted on. Ask nicely and maybe I'll respond.

What is the town motivation with this kind of a response? Asking someone to unvote you because you don't like the fact that they are pressuring you is unlikely to get you what you want. If you are town, you should have a vested interest in engaging with the people who are voting for you, regardless of whether they are town or scum. If you're being voted by a fellow townie you should take that to mean that they are genuinely scumreading you, and you should want to get to the bottom of

why

they are scumreading you, and then convince them that you are town. You can start doing this by engaging with them and answering their questions and asking any questions of your own that you may have. If you are being voted by scum, that likely means they think you are a good mislynch candidate, and the more you engage with them in a back-and-forth conversation, the more likely they will be to slip up and reveal their true alignment. So either way, you have no excuse to not engage with and answer the questions being asked of you by the people voting for you.

[volxen]

I don't feel comfortable lynching the IC on the first day unless they make a major blunder, let's put it that way.

The IC could help other new players perform better and help town win the game.

@yellow:
okay..but we do have SEs who can help out with this as well..so that shouldn't be so concerning? besides, day1 lasts like 10 days so the IC can dish out a lot of info by then, dont you think?

Maybe I just consider myself a reasonably nice guy. The IC is doing the game a favor, I think I can do him a favor by not lyching him the first sign of trouble.

I find these quotes concerning, especially the last one where you link "not lynching the IC" with being a "reasonably nice guy" and talk about "doing Brass a favor" because he is doing this game a favor by being the IC. Brass should receive absolutely no special treatment or consideration just because he is the IC. If you are town you should be evaluating his slot just as critically as everyone else's slot. I don't even like buzzwords like "LAMIST" (for our newer players see: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations), but that's what these posts come across as to me, like you are trying to make yourself

look

towny by repeatedly saying that the IC should not be lynched on day one.

And also @Yellow, why is this the first game where you repeatedly want to give special treatment/consideration to the IC? I looked through your ISO in two of your previous towngames (Newbie 1906 and Newbie 1910), and you never once mentioned anything about giving the IC special treatment or consideration on day one or at any point in the game:

Link to Newbie 1906: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78044

Link to Yellowsnow's ISO in the game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10608392

In this game Micc was the IC (and he was scum), but you didn't have him as a scumread on day one, and you were scumreading Child over Micc on day two (Micc was lynched on day two). You never once brought up Micc’s IC status with respect to how you were reading his slot or whether he should or should not be lynched.

Link to Newbie 1910: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78203

Link to Yellowsnow's ISO in the game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10636095

In this game The Worst was the IC (and he was town), and you had TW as a townread on day one (TW was nightkilled on night one). You never once brought up TW’s IC status with respect to how you were reading his slot or whether he should or should not be lynched.

So why put so much emphasis on Brass being the IC in this game? Why not treat him the same as everyone else, just like you did with the IC slots in Newbie 1906 and Newbie 1910?

[Roo]

I'm not going to reply because I've been voted on. Ask nicely and maybe I'll respond.

What is the town motivation with this kind of a response? Asking someone to unvote you because you don't like the fact that they are pressuring you is unlikely to get you what you want. If you are town, you should have a vested interest in engaging with the people who are voting for you, regardless of whether they are town or scum. If you're being voted by a fellow townie you should take that to mean that they are genuinely scumreading you, and you should want to get to the bottom of

why

they are scumreading you, and then convince them that you are town. You can start doing this by engaging with them and answering their questions and asking any questions of your own that you may have. If you are being voted by scum, that likely means they think you are a good mislynch candidate, and the more you engage with them in a back-and-forth conversation, the more likely they will be to slip up and reveal their true alignment. So either way, you have no excuse to not engage with and answer the questions being asked of you by the people voting for you.

In addition to this point. When I asked Yellow to answer after he said this, he said that he couldn’t because he was working and didn’t have the time. Which is obviously true, we all have RL obligations. But why not just say that originally to hearthstone then? What was the point of giving this response first?

[L84Dnr]

YellowSnow's flat out refusal to answer questions strikes me as just plain anti-wincon. It makes no sense if you're scum or town. My vote remains on him because that's thunderingly anti-town but I'm worried that he's just really bad at playing town.

[L84Dnr]

@Volxen Thanks for posting those links to Newbie 1906 and 1910.

@Brass What's the rules on posting/quoting/linking material from previous games for meta?

I'm seeing some startling contrast between his post 266 and the ISO that Volxen linked from Newbie 1906.

[volxen]

I still do not like how Saint is hedging his bets by claiming he can't get a read on me, but also heavily implying he's scum reading me. I feel like his reads on my slot are fully setting up that he's going to use these to be opportunistic and join a wagon if a real one pops up.

He's my top suspect still, did not like his answer to why he voted incorrectly before, and I'm not liking this "newer player who's so intimidated" act

@Brass, frankly I'm much more concerned with the way Yellowsnow has treated your slot vs how Saint has treated your slot. Yes, Saint has been fairly non-committal on how he is reading your slot, and both Saint and Yellowsnow have brought up the fact that you are the IC. But this is Saint's very first game on site, so I could see why newb!town Saint would be intimidated to push you, even if he has gotten scum pings from you (which I'm not sure that he has). I can also see Saint being genuinely null on your slot. Yellowsnow, on the other hand, has been on this site for almost 2 months now and has multiple completed games under his belt, so it's less believable that town!Yellowsnow would put so much stock into you being IC, to the point where he thinks you should be immune to being lynched at least on day one anyways. If anything, this kind of "special treatment" towards the IC slot is something I might expect from someone in their first game. Not from someone who has multiple completed games under their belt, especially when Yellowsnow has

NOT

treated the IC slot like this in any of his previous towngames.

Are you concerned at all that Yellowsnow may be trying to hard pocket/buddy you?

[volxen]

@Volxen Thanks for posting those links to Newbie 1906 and 1910.

@Brass What's the rules on posting/quoting/linking material from previous games for meta?

I'm seeing some startling contrast between his post 266 and the ISO that Volxen linked from Newbie 1906.

You can post/quote/link anything from a previous game as long as the game is completed. Newbie 1906 and Newbie 1910 are both completed games, so you can refer to anything from either of those games.

[the worst]

vote count 1.14

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (3) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr
L84Dnr (0) :
DoubtingThomas (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (1) : YellowSnow
SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, brassherald
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (1) : DoubtingThomas

not voting:

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- prodding hearthstone1235
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- xwing is also coincidentally v/la this Monday
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

[brassherald]

@Brass What's the rules on posting/quoting/linking material from previous games for meta?

As long as the game is completed, it's fair game.

[brassherald]

I still do not like how Saint is hedging his bets by claiming he can't get a read on me, but also heavily implying he's scum reading me. I feel like his reads on my slot are fully setting up that he's going to use these to be opportunistic and join a wagon if a real one pops up.

He's my top suspect still, did not like his answer to why he voted incorrectly before, and I'm not liking this "newer player who's so intimidated" act

@Brass, frankly I'm much more concerned with the way Yellowsnow has treated your slot vs how Saint has treated your slot. Yes, Saint has been fairly non-committal on how he is reading your slot, and both Saint and Yellowsnow have brought up the fact that you are the IC. But this is Saint's very first game on site, so I could see why newb!town Saint would be intimidated to push you, even if he has gotten scum pings from you (which I'm not sure that he has). I can also see Saint being genuinely null on your slot. Yellowsnow, on the other hand, has been on this site for almost 2 months now and has multiple completed games under his belt, so it's less believable that town!Yellowsnow would put so much stock into you being IC, to the point where he thinks you should be immune to being lynched at least on day one anyways. If anything, this kind of "special treatment" towards the IC slot is something I might expect from someone in their first game. Not from someone who has multiple completed games under their belt, especially when Yellowsnow has

NOT

treated the IC slot like this in any of his previous towngames.

Are you concerned at all that Yellowsnow may be trying to hard pocket/buddy you?

I got in late last night and read the case and find it compelling.

VOTE: YellowSnow

[brassherald]

That's L-1.

Now, for an IC post, quickly, a mislynch day 1 is actually better than a no lynch. There's math out there and I'll dig it up when I have a chance later, but trust me for now. This is just a fact I drop every day 1 of a newbie game.

[Roo]

Since we're at L-1 and I've been suspicious of YellowSnow this whole time, I am giving intent to hammer. So it's claim time YellowSnow.


Just a note please nobody else vote for YellowSnow yet. I'm giving intent now so we have enough time to hear from YellowSnow, and then any time needed for any potential counterclaims/discussion.

[hearthstone1235]

there's something iffy about the above post.

[Roo]

there's something iffy about the above post.

What’s striking you as iffy?

[L84Dnr]

YellowSnow in Newbie 1906:

The correct answer is anything you do in the game may require explanation.

Your previous record only gets you so far.

This isn't poker. Town should be more transparent. Scum are expected not to be.

YellowSnow in this game:

I'm not going to reply because I've been voted on. Ask nicely and maybe I'll respond.

So aside from being ferociously anti-town, this response is completely at odds with his town playstyle. I'd be content to lynch him.

[hearthstone1235]

What’s striking you as iffy?

I suppose it would make more sense realizing the fact that there are 2 days left for day 1 to end. But I would still like to wait for YellowSnow to write up a defense, before even asking for a roleclaim.

And, I think there's might be something else. But I still have to confirm that.