Newbie 1913 - game over!!

[BlurryX]

Tough to take over for someone, but I played really poorly. Definitely never replacing into a game again.

VOTE: Blurry

[L84Dnr]

Blurry, I hope that you didn't just self-hammer.

[Roo]

Didn't know that was allowed. All right then

[volxen]

Blurry, I hope that you didn't just self-hammer.

Damnit, that's exactly what happened. He felt he was caught red-handed as scum, so he self-hammered to try and force the day to end early to cut off discussion. This thread is going to be locked as soon as the mod comes back, but we are allowed to keep posting until that time. Right now we are in "twilight", the time in-between the hammer vote being placed and the mod coming back. So anything you (or anyone else) wants to share before night 2 starts needs to be shared ASAP.

In case I am not around tomorrow,

please don't just just autolynch Saint

. I really do think there is a strong likelihood of there being scum on Yellowsnow's wagon.

Please take a hard look at Brass and Roo

as I believe one of these two is BlurryX's scumbuddy.

[L84Dnr]

I'm not sure it is. Not seeing a rule so I'm awaiting the Word of Mod.

Blurry, assuming you aren't lynched, please don't give up. Replacing in is tough and you may not think that you've played as well as you could have, but you can always try and pull it off. This is just a game and it's a n00b game, so perfect play is hardly what's expected.

[volxen]

That self-vote should be taken as a scumclaim from Blurry, so now would be a good time to look for associatives before this goes to the night phase.

[L84Dnr]

Agree with Volxen. Autolynch is the height of bad town play. Saint is a top suspect but look at everybody.

[volxen]

I'm not sure it is. Not seeing a rule so I'm awaiting the Word of Mod.

Blurry, assuming you aren't lynched, please don't give up. Replacing in is tough and you may not think that you've played as well as you could have, but you can always try and pull it off. This is just a game and it's a n00b game, so perfect play is hardly what's expected.

? No, a self-vote definitely counts. Blurry is 100% lynched. Self-hammering is a legitimate scum tactic (as long as you aren't the last remaining scum of course) if you feel you are caught and the best thing is to abruptly end the day to cutoff discussion.

[L84Dnr]

OK, the games I play self-votes often don't count.

The biggest associative tell so far is what looks like a distancing vote by Saint on DT/Blurry followed by Blurry's reluctance to vote Saint. That plays into the auto-lynch Saint theme though, so looking deeper.

[volxen]

DT/BlurryX-Brass interactions/associatives:

VOTE: The Worst

@The Worst if you thought being the mod would stop me from voting for you during RVS, think again buddy.

Let's get a wagon going against TW!

Here's a good teaching moment for the newbies, voting the mod is never funny.

Why not?

VOTE: brass

DT's first vote is for Brass

did brass keep their rvs vote on me?

DT asks if Brass kept his vote on him, when Brass never voted for him in the first place.

did brass keep their rvs vote on me?

I never voted you this entire game.

Wait, do you think your vote on me is me voting you?

That's not how to read a vote count.

yeah LOL that's what happened lmfao ok

what reads do you have brass?

"IC_Question": What if scum plays exactly as they would if they were town? Wouldn't it be impossible to catch them?

I wouldn't say impossible. At the end of the game there's always a question of why someone is there. Night Kills generally aim for people who are either super Towny, an obvious PR or sometimes just someone who is too close to solving the game.

That being said, it can be very hard to catch a skilled scum player who has a scum range which closely emulates their town. If someone gets that reputation, people will probably just start lynching that individual before end game to be safe

It is not impossible because they have exactly different players they need to lynch to win

For example if I am in a game of 13 players, there are usually 3 scums.

Say I am town. My goal is to find 3 scums out of the 12 players, or 9 towns out of the 12 players (excluding myself)

Say I am scum. My goal is to mislynch the other 10 players (excluding myself and two teammates, total of 3 mafias in a 13 player game)

In the process, maybe I can also bus my other two teammates for some credit, but in the end I have to kill at least 7 town players as scum (because 3 towns - 3 scums is a parity win condition for scum so i need to at LEAST kill 7 players), whereas as town, I have to find and kill other 3 scum players, while in the process towns will be night killed and potentially be lynched, but I can theoretically win the game after only 5 players have died (by lynching all 3 scums back to back to back meanwhile during the nights 2 towns are being night killed)

I know that explanation kinda sucked, but that is basically the core reason.

Don't forget, during the process of the game, the logic/reasoning for one person to use for scum reading a town as a town and wolf and also scum reading a scum/bussing a scum as a town/wolf will have differences, inherently

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

I think this post is extremely bad in a scummy way

First problem

He attacks the post which was merely an ANSWER to another player's question

Second problem

I see really no point of making this post at all.
He's asking a very simple question that can be kinda inferred to (that I made this post in a third person way) but also at the same time, the question itself doesn't contribute to ANY scum hunting at all. The answer to whether or not I wrote the post in a third person does not help brass know my alignment at all.

Third problem

Then he goes on to attack my post in a way that's NAI and kinda pointless to point out. That "he hates walls" again which is his opinion, and he is free to express it. However, by expressing this opinion along with a pointless question he asked above, he is literally contributing nothing to the thread but still commenting on a post which was not directed towards him at all.

I think him giving out a negative opinion about the post which is not about the content of the post and how that may be townish/scummish of me is usually how scums tend to try to

shade

other players.

Overall, this post has 3 things I hate so much

- Belittling a post in a very indirect yet meaningless way
- Using that negative factor of the post to attack my slot/give a negative impression to others about me
- While in actuality if you look into this post, he contributed absolutely nothing. He did not enhance a conversation between me and him nor gave any useful analysis wrt my post

Furthermore, I think his complaint about how "he hates long post" and "if you have a succinct way of say something, say it in a simpler way" is just kinda really bad approach to the game

I can understand disliking long posts and I am sorry if you think that it makes the point I am trying to get across to be lost in the middle of it, but I make long posts because I tend to get on a tangent and write about all the thoughts I have in the process. To partly show a transparent thought process I have. This way, I can show others how/why I felt/thought abotu something in a certain way and discuss about it with them. Which will help me understand the other person's alignment better

You can dislike long posts and hate my post for not getting straight to the point, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

At the same time, I now think it's

REALLY SCUMMY

for you to just attack my post based on the fact that it's a long post and I didn't get my point across with it. rather than talking/expressing about how that makes me townie/scummy nor actually trying to ask me questions about the confusion you have with the post.

Because if you are town, you should be curious about the confusion you have. You express that you did not understand my post completely, but really don't ask a legit question that will help your clarification. Rather, you focus on how that makes my posting bad. Again, I think that comes from a scummy agenda that you want to give others the impression that I am posting badly.

I believe you are scum here, sir.

VOTE: Brass

DT tries to vote for Brass again even though his vote was already there.

did brass keep their rvs vote on me?

I never voted you this entire game.

Right now, I've got some suspicions to Saint because I didn't like that answer but I'm willing to wait until he responds to xwing.

YellowSnow for reasons discussed before, in fact I don't think he posted yesterday at all, and it feels lurky to me compared to the last game I played with him.

Doubting Thomas is asking very general questions rather than pointed ones, that seems like being active lurking. I mean, there is a difference between asking someone what they think of the gamestate and what they think of a specific slot or a specific post. I feel like we are at the point where the questions should be specific rather than general. The questions just seem too easy.

I also find Volxen's silence uneasy. That's an SE slot barely participating.

The other 4 of you get passes for now into what passes for a town block on the basis of not being as suspect.

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

what reads do you have brass?

I feel like I just answered this one, and it seems this is the only question directed at me right now. Not too much change here.

I like XWing for town, though, independent of there being too many scumspects.

That being said, I don't see a townslip from DT, and I will also remind people town slips can be faked, if it's even there.

Also, slight IC tip in a game related post, you can highlight a portion of a post and hit the Quote button to just quote that portion of the post.

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

I think this post is extremely bad in a scummy way

First problem

He attacks the post which was merely an ANSWER to another player's question

Second problem

I see really no point of making this post at all.
He's asking a very simple question that can be kinda inferred to (that I made this post in a third person way) but also at the same time, the question itself doesn't contribute to ANY scum hunting at all. The answer to whether or not I wrote the post in a third person does not help brass know my alignment at all.

Third problem

Then he goes on to attack my post in a way that's NAI and kinda pointless to point out. That "he hates walls" again which is his opinion, and he is free to express it. However, by expressing this opinion along with a pointless question he asked above, he is literally contributing nothing to the thread but still commenting on a post which was not directed towards him at all.

I think him giving out a negative opinion about the post which is not about the content of the post and how that may be townish/scummish of me is usually how scums tend to try to

shade

other players.

Overall, this post has 3 things I hate so much

- Belittling a post in a very indirect yet meaningless way
- Using that negative factor of the post to attack my slot/give a negative impression to others about me
- While in actuality if you look into this post, he contributed absolutely nothing. He did not enhance a conversation between me and him nor gave any useful analysis wrt my post

Furthermore, I think his complaint about how "he hates long post" and "if you have a succinct way of say something, say it in a simpler way" is just kinda really bad approach to the game

I can understand disliking long posts and I am sorry if you think that it makes the point I am trying to get across to be lost in the middle of it, but I make long posts because I tend to get on a tangent and write about all the thoughts I have in the process. To partly show a transparent thought process I have. This way, I can show others how/why I felt/thought abotu something in a certain way and discuss about it with them. Which will help me understand the other person's alignment better

You can dislike long posts and hate my post for not getting straight to the point, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

At the same time, I now think it's

REALLY SCUMMY

for you to just attack my post based on the fact that it's a long post and I didn't get my point across with it. rather than talking/expressing about how that makes me townie/scummy nor actually trying to ask me questions about the confusion you have with the post.

Because if you are town, you should be curious about the confusion you have. You express that you did not understand my post completely, but really don't ask a legit question that will help your clarification. Rather, you focus on how that makes my posting bad. Again, I think that comes from a scummy agenda that you want to give others the impression that I am posting badly.

I believe you are scum here, sir.

VOTE: Brass

Oh my god, can you get an editor or something? Because these posts are so long and say basically nothing.

I asked you directly what you were doing in your previous wall post, it was the first sentence of my post. And you don't think it's a "legit question".

Serious advice, don't fall in love with your own voice so much that you can't learn to stop talking and make the point you are trying to make.

Here DT posts an over-the-top scumread of Brass, and it doesn't even phase Brass. He basically just criticizes DT for making the post too long and tells him to "not fall in love with your own voice", but he doesn't take the scumread itself seriously at all and the whole thing seems to have completly unphased Brass. Considering Brass previously expressed suspicions of DT ("he's asking very general questions"), Brass should have taken this more seriously and given a real response to this scumread from DT.

The only other one I would lynch today is Saint right now, tbh. DT slot is too far from lynch to be realistic with 10 hours left.

I'm not sure that Scum!YellowSnow claims a VT, to be honest, because he knows the optimal fake claim on the basis of me saying it in our last game.

But, we are also in the 11th hour, so my lynch pool is {YellowSnow,Saint} and I think if either of them are town, the last is BlurryX(I'm pretty sure he is the DT replacement?)

UNVOTE:

To give me a chance to catch up on what is going on.

I apologize for this being a bit disjointed, but its almost impossible to really come to grips with 14 pages of content in the 24 hours we have to reach a decision, so I'm going to just list things as they come to me.

First person to get up to any notable number of votes was brassherald. Only interesting vote was the third one, the "Lets wagon the IC vote". Not really an indicator of anything.

As for brassherald:

Most of his posts have been IC related, which in my books don't tip the needle in either direction so I will choose to ignore them. Also a lot of posts about the game in general, what roles he prefers. Nothing noteworthy there.

First real post of any kind of leaning was his response to hearthstone about why he had not been particularly active up until that point. Stuck to his guns about Roo, which I like, and he picked up the amoutn of contribution as the day went on so his response is consistent with how he behaved.

Next post that was specifically game-related was him taking Roo away from L-1 which leans town to me. Wanting to allow for the whole day for discussion to get as much information as possible seems like a towny thing to do. More discussion can only benefit town because it gives us more to go off of when trying to figure out who is scum/town.

His later reads seem to be well reasoned for the most part. I will say, I'm not sure how relevant analyzing prior activity is with regards to YellowSnow considering real life obligations have a large role in how much time you can devote to the game, and consequently how you play. Also, there is likely not enough game history to really come up with anythign conclusive. I haven't looked through his prior games, but, has there been a game where he played as scum, and if so, did he play significantly different in that game compared to others? Just because he is playing different this game does not necessarily mean its because he has a different role.

While the defeatist "I don't defend myself against awful wagons" isn't the best of responses, I honestly would chalk this up to not dealing well with pressure instead of scumminess.

My gut feeling so far is this push against YellowSnow has more to do with his playstyle than any kind of actual scumread against him. So far not convinced that he is the best lynch target for today, although I realize time is running out and lynch is better than no-lynch.

So the first person BlurryX mentioned after replacing in was Brass, and he took a 100% null position towards Brass's slot, with his overall conclusion about Brass being that there was "nothing noteworthy there".

My overall conclusion is that a lot of these interactions between Brass and DT/BlurryX look like SvS distancing. DT and Brass for example both shaded each other, but neither seriously tried to push the other to lynch. Brass didn't give a proper response to DT's scumcase. He shaded DT throughout the day, but had a clear preference of lyching Yellowsnow or Saint.

[the worst]

vote count 2.03

L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (==[]) : volxen, Roo, L84Dnr, BlurryX
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (1) : xwing
volxen (1) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: SaintAngelDFE, brassherald

with 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-02-08 11:30:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

[the worst]

BlurryX has been lynched.

He was a.......

Spoiler:

MAFIA ROLEBLOCKER!

[the worst]

It is now Night Two.

This phase will end in (expired on 2019-02-06 07:00:00).

Please submit allnight actions before then.

[the worst]

volxen has been killed.

He was a.......

Spoiler:

Town Jailkeeper

[the worst]

vote count 3.00

L84Dnr (0) :
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: L84Dnr, Roo, SaintAngelDFE, xwing, brassherald

with 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-02-13 07:30:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

[L84Dnr]

Scum has bee having unusually good luck with their NK. I was hoping that our remaining PR could shed some light on who was doing what.

[L84Dnr]

Interesting that the NK was on the wagon again. Now it looks like:

vote count 2.03

L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (==[]) :

volxen

, Roo, L84Dnr,

BlurryX

Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (1) : xwing
volxen (1) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: SaintAngelDFE, brassherald

That rather narrows the suspect pool for Roo and I.

Since scum don't like lynching scum I doubt that the other scum was on the wagon. That leaves Xwing, Brass, and Saint.

There's a lot of evidence pointing to Saint, but I'd like to examine all the possibilities. As Volxen said, we don't want to waste Day 3 by autolynching Saint and find ourselves in MYLO/LYLO with no further information.

[L84Dnr]

@The Worst

Question on mechanics if you can answer it. If Player A jails Player B and Player B NKs Player A what is the outcome? Would the jailing thwart the NK?

Volxen makes sense as an NK target but I was hoping that our scum would be in jail.

[the worst]

@The Worst

Question on mechanics if you can answer it. If Player A jails Player B and Player B NKs Player A what is the outcome? Would the jailing thwart the NK?

If this happened, the roleblock action of the jailkeeper would resolve before the night kill action of the killer.

Therefore no kill would occur.

[Roo]

I'd also like to hear from Saint.

VOTE: Saint

Saint, your ISO looks awfully lurky. Is there a good reason for that?

My lurking, especially in the last week, has been mostly work related. I plan on being a lot better about posting from here on out, my apologies.

I'll be posting a detailed read list in the next couple of hours after I have a chance to read back through day one a bit, I'd like to make sure I've got everything right before I make a mistake like I did last time.

I'm thinking I'll try and get as accurate read I can on the SE's and the IC because like L8 said, it's kind of weird that they survived when I think scum would have wanted to get rid of someone more capable of calling them out.

Was there anybody that Hearth was particularly suspecting? I didn't notice anything specifically aimed at anyone until the wagon on Yellow, but I'll be rereading again just in case, not saying they're scum it's just something I want to look back on.

@Saint Definitely still very interested in this reads list of yours that never came. Or just where you think we are in the game right now, and who you suspect after the nightkill

[L84Dnr]

@Xwing

@hearth:
to backtrack means to reverse your position on someone or something, but in a scummy/unnatural way..
also brass is right, drawing associations is far too early, i just combined my two biggest scum reads to make the scum team..hence saint-yellow..

@DT: this is important!!!
scum know who their fellow scum are, and they know everyone's alignment already..
they also have a private thread where they can communicate/interact at anytime (called daychat)..
what they dont know is who the town power roles (TPRs) are..
depending on the setup we are in though, they *may* have roles to find out who the PR is (e.g. mafia rolecop)..

i think DT may be town by virtue of townslip..

I know that you later said this was a mistake, but at the time why did you think that DT might have townslipped?

[L84Dnr]

@BrassHerald Would you like to comment on Volxen's post 459 above?

I'd also be interested in an explanation for your Day 1 vote on YellowSnow. There wasn't a lot of context.

I still do not like how Saint is hedging his bets by claiming he can't get a read on me, but also heavily implying he's scum reading me. I feel like his reads on my slot are fully setting up that he's going to use these to be opportunistic and join a wagon if a real one pops up.

He's my top suspect still, did not like his answer to why he voted incorrectly before, and I'm not liking this "newer player who's so intimidated" act

@Brass, frankly I'm much more concerned with the way Yellowsnow has treated your slot vs how Saint has treated your slot. Yes, Saint has been fairly non-committal on how he is reading your slot, and both Saint and Yellowsnow have brought up the fact that you are the IC. But this is Saint's very first game on site, so I could see why newb!town Saint would be intimidated to push you, even if he has gotten scum pings from you (which I'm not sure that he has). I can also see Saint being genuinely null on your slot. Yellowsnow, on the other hand, has been on this site for almost 2 months now and has multiple completed games under his belt, so it's less believable that town!Yellowsnow would put so much stock into you being IC, to the point where he thinks you should be immune to being lynched at least on day one anyways. If anything, this kind of "special treatment" towards the IC slot is something I might expect from someone in their first game. Not from someone who has multiple completed games under their belt, especially when Yellowsnow has

NOT

treated the IC slot like this in any of his previous towngames.

Are you concerned at all that Yellowsnow may be trying to hard pocket/buddy you?

I got in late last night and read the case and find it compelling.

VOTE: YellowSnow

[L84Dnr]

vote count 1.19

hearthstone1235

(0) :

YellowSnow

(==[]) :

volxen, hearthstone1235

, L84Dnr, brassherald, Roo
L84Dnr (0) :

BlurryX

(1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (2) : xwing,

YellowSnow

volxen

(0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting:

BlurryX

The Day 1 mis-lynch vote looks a bit more interesting now too with the new flips added.

[L84Dnr]

@Saint Do you have any thoughts on why BlurryX wasn't voting at the end of Day 1? To be precise, if you are town, then this vote count looks like scum paradise:

vote count 1.18

hearthstone1235 (0) :

YellowSnow

(4) :

volxen, hearthstone1235

, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (0) :

BlurryX

(1) :

SaintAngelDFE

Roo (0) :

SaintAngelDFE

(3) : xwing, Roo,

YellowSnow

volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting:

BlurryX

All that BlurryX had to do was hop on your wagon to produce two town wagons, both at L-1 with just a few hours until end of day. Chaos abounds and some poor townie mislynches another townie. If he's lucky, you hammer YellowSnow, which pretty much sets you up to be a guaranteed Day 2 mislynch. Can you think of a good reason why he might not have seized that opportunity?

[L84Dnr]

VOTE: BrassHerald

To provide added incentive for you to reply.