Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[Nancy Drew 39]

i'm mentally checked out and i don't want to be giving highly weighted reads when i'm not playing the game anymore

but i stand by dannflor as towniest gent and nd/you as towniest women

+1 (plus Ank)

[Nancy Drew 39]

it's not you lol

i had a fantasy that this town would actually engage with my alignment in good faith after some of the stuff that was said earlier and when that was taken away with me i rly don't have any desire to play anymore

[Nancy Drew 39]

ppl are mad at ankamius but not even for a good reason. they're mad at her because she scumreads me. that's not the issue. the issue is that she's willing to lie and twist things to support her case because she knows her case doesn't have solid enough ground. if she knows her case doesn't have solid enough ground and she doesn't think she can get me lynched off of reality and she knows she can't read me well... she really has no business going after me. i can handle being scumread fine, it just so happens that most of the people who scumread me on this site scumread me for incredibly dishonest reasons as a masquerade to hide the fact that they really just don't like the idea of scum me winning.

I think you and Ank are tvt.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I've had my heart broken once already because I waited too long. Time to stop being a coward.

Nancy, will you go to the dance with me?

Spoiler: Flowers!

I accept!

What a lovely bouquet.

[Nancy Drew 39]

ppl are mad at ankamius but not even for a good reason. they're mad at her because she scumreads me. that's not the issue. the issue is that she's willing to lie and twist things to support her case because she knows her case doesn't have solid enough ground. if she knows her case doesn't have solid enough ground and she doesn't think she can get me lynched off of reality and she knows she can't read me well... she really has no business going after me. i can handle being scumread fine, it just so happens that most of the people who scumread me on this site scumread me for incredibly dishonest reasons as a masquerade to hide the fact that they really just don't like the idea of scum me winning.

This is the single most annoying thing you've said yet if you are actually town.

I believe defending Nancy is something you would do as either alignment. I believe you would be expected to do that as town, and understand that enough to do it as scum.

Your reads are sketchy. Your scumreads are... slots that have very little to no impact on the game, and me, somebody who you have had no trouble ever seeing as town when I was town before.

You didn't take the path to the easiest win and when I pressured you about it, you did this ridiculous commentary about how my scumgame is not worth it instead of simply saying that your reads are not to where you are confident in them enough to commit to that. <--

THIS

would've been a town response and I would have backed off. Instead, you got incredibly defensive at pressure that wouldn't phase someone who genuinely thought they would easily win against me, so no shit I turned up the pressure.

And now the only thing I can think of with how you are playing right now is that your plan to pocket someone and ride that to endgame has failed and you are playing to give town as little as possible to get your buddies to endgame.

Your game here has had a

scumgame

approach to it and frankly, I would have much higher expectations of your towngame than to let me chain you down and destroy your spirit entirely regardless of my alignment, because if this is your towngame in the first place, what would you have done if I ended up flipping town after you death tunneled me for the entire first dance?

I really don't care if you leave at the start of the first dance, tbh for scum you that's probably smart. But for town you, I'm very disappointed that you wouldn't give me enough credit to believe that I don't make this level of push on people I don't have good reason to believe has a good chance of flipping scum, and if that one little push is going to break you, then you really shouldn't be playing mafia in the first place right now.

You're acting in the same way now that you accuse me of doing. Either put your back into the game and get back into the groove of it, replace out, or just do whatever that doesn't involve complaining about how shitty of a person I am, because that helps a grand total of nobody in any way.

Let’s not make this personal. See, this is why I objected to this pairing and I still don’t understand how Krazy could have ignored the obvious bad blood between you guys, when he suggested it.

RC/Taly would have been a much better match, for this reason.

Anyway, doubling down on TvT and a terrible pairing. Why anyone could thing you two were an optimal match, is beyond me.

Pairs ideally need to be able to correctly read each other and it’s clear that isn’t the case here.

[Dannflor]

It is desperate. It also reads as fairly genuine. I'm not sure if he'd act that brazenly and obviously desperate as scum

Ahhhh. People keep saying Allo's tone is so genuine, but I read his tone as explicitly not genuine. It feels like it's trying too hard.

I need to meta him probably

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think the point of his early game setup spec was to set up scum being able to pocket their partners

And lo and behold... he pushed to do that himself for Taly

But I mindmelded with him on his RC case?

Who would you prefer Taly be paired with then, if not Krazy?

[Dannflor]

I accept!

What a lovely bouquet.

omg yay!

uh I mean *stoic nod*

Let's do this

[Something_Smart]

It is desperate. It also reads as fairly genuine. I'm not sure if he'd act that brazenly and obviously desperate as scum

Ahhhh. People keep saying Allo's tone is so genuine, but I read his tone as explicitly not genuine. It feels like it's trying too hard.

I need to meta him probably

Trying too hard to do what?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't understand why

Krazy

-scum would bring up 3+ strategies and weigh each of them out accordingly while being very forthcoming with how the town thought about it.

It seemed the most thoughtful approach of the setup, and I feel like scum would stick further to an agenda and a set plan, and control HOW people talked about the setup rather than give suggestions. 62 - 69 - 77 - 90 - 101 - 122

Plus, I haven't played with

Krazy

before, but our personalities mesh very well. I never felt like he was pocketing me, and he NEVER pushed this onto me.

1)

1474 - 1526 he veiled that he didn't expect me to immediately accept, it told me he asked NOT just because he wanted to pair with me... 1861 but this post implies that he didn't EXPECT me to accept, because he trusted his townread on me, and for me to NOT opportunistically jump at the first chance I get invited.

It told me that his townread of me was more genuine, rather than a strategy to get into a pair with a highly townread person.

2)

I wasn't even widely townread until around the 2000 post marks, I'd say, around the

S_S

came in was when people actively voiced their reads of me on a broad scale 2313 - 2491 - 2603/2604 - 2647

(and other posts that I'm not taking forever to look)

, and I felt that

Krazy

-scum would've waited for that interval to say he wanted to dance with me.

3)

Though he didn't, he made his thoughts clear to me early on in 880 - 1445 - 1518 - 1526 - 1864 - 2640 and from this point since, has worked with me as if any partner would, and has consistently checked up on my reads and thoughts of the game.

Yes,

Krazy

has put a LOT of energy focusing on a pairing with me, but I fail to see any scum-motivation, and working with him in a PT would help my view of the game better as opposed to multiple other gent options.

I think the point of his early game setup spec was to set up scum being able to pocket their partners

And lo and behold... he pushed to do that himself for Taly

This was my BIGGEST concern stated in the game, and I thought I made this very clear.

Please point out to me any fallacy in my logic - that I'm being misled or pocketed by

Krazy

. I want to hear you out because I thoroughly don't see it.

I don’t see why scum!Krazy towncases RC like he did but more importantly, if not Krazy, which gent does Ank have as an alternative for you, who is a better match than Krazy? Does Ank see Urist/DT as preferable matches? This is what’s got me legit confused.

[Nancy Drew 39]

My problem with Ank is that right before Taly is going to accept Krazy she says Krazy may be scum, and right after I accept Dr. Worm she says my reads are bad. Is like she's trying to set up WIFOM and future lynches.

Is Ank scumreading Worm? Since when?

And this is another reason I scumread Allo, he isn’t will to re-evaluate either Worm or my slot. Why is he so tunnelled? He seemed to be more willing to try to sort players last time, I think? I know I obvtownread him then.

[Taly]

Help me read

S_S

,

Dann

.

I'm signing off for now.

If it helps, I've only played once with SS; I was scum and he was town. I wanted to mislynch him and it turned out to be impossible, so I trust his town game enough to survive when he gets real pressure.

My most memorable experience with

S_S

was here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75347

S_S

replaced in, gave very passive and partial judgment, I overlooked it, and by the time I was NKed, nobody was in the position to fault him as scum.

Allo pairing? Me no likey

Is this because he asked for a pair? Or how he did it?

However, I do want to pair with someone who is a pretty easy lynch (though not necessarily widely scumread), because that seems to be how my slot is treated. (I still have the feeling that this is mostly because I'm the only replacement... discrimination ) That way, if we do end up getting mislynched at least two question marks will be removed at once, and if the person I pick turns out to be scum we get to see scum squirm to try to keep us alive for as long as possible.

This is one thing I liked from

S_S'

reply. You're looking at partnering similar to how I've been - actually, and you persisting to be OK with partnering by someone who is lynchbaity even with the suspicion of you a level of survivialism that doesn't read as scum...

1371 is a post I randomly came across while looking through stuff. Noting it here because it is the source of both my Allo and my Vedith townreads.

Dr. Worm's

points about post count and reads in 2793 and 2795 give an indication of a deepwolf in the game.

If that's true, gamestate says

Allo

and you are town... But that could be a red herring.

Questioning my reads right now will only push me back to indecision and waffling; I have faith and good reason for a lot of my reads right now and I want to stick to them.

I don't think

Allo

should 100% be the person left behind in the game - at least not with the understated reasoning on him, and I'm less suspect of

S_S

, whether these sentiments change my reads or the direction of them - I'm not sure yet.

who is a better match than Krazy? Does Ank see Urist/DT as preferable matches?

The problem with this is that I don't think

Urist/DT

are my best options on both a playstyle and read level.

[Taly]

The only reason I'm not accepting

Krazy

RIGHT NOW

is because I want to give

Ank

a fair hearing... even though I strongly doubt my view will change.

Also, I want

Krazy

to be present when I do it but that's not a requirement.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm sorry

Ank

, but if

Krazy

pocketing me was a big concern

You shouldn't have paired with

RC

before we sorted out pairs with EVERYONE getting a chance to speak.

(Granted, this is not all on you, RC should've stuck to his original thought and waited a day or so before pairing.

Suicide-pairing should be the LAST type of pair made in this setup, not the SECOND.)

And while I'm being hard-nosed here

(apology about that,

this interaction is NOT personal at all

Ank

-

<3 <3 <3

)

, I'm taking

full

accountability of my reads and I have good reason to accept

Krazy

.

Okay Taly, you should no longer be paranoid about any obvtown reads on your slot.

Yeah, this pairing was horrible for town. You obviously need to be paired and and afaik, Ank hasn’t advocated you pairing with either DT or Urist, so with RC off the market now, I don’t know what she expects you to do here.

[Dannflor]

Trying too hard to do what?

To capture that genuine tone. The random pop ins with "x is town" or "y is scummy" are brazen yes, but I'm not convinced it can't just be scum trying to capture that easy-going/genuine tone.

Maybe the playstyle difference is impacting my read. Like I said I'll meta him when I get time later, see if it helps me at all.

[Dannflor]

Townreads are, in playerlist order, RC, Allo, Worm, Vedith, Ank, Taly.

Also, I thought you were scum reading Taly. But maybe I misunderstood something.

[Pink Ball]

I'm really happy for Nancy and Dann

[Something_Smart]

That might be right overall, but I don't feel that with his desperate dance request. I doubt he goes "how do I look genuine? I know, I'll intentionally pretend to be super desperate."

I think that post only comes from Allo if he actually is desperate, which he could still be as scum-- but I also think he'd be more likely to hide it.

Especially if, as you're saying, he might be putting on an act, it'd be weoyto abruptly drop the act and show his genuine fear.

[Something_Smart]

Townreads are, in playerlist order, RC, Allo, Worm, Vedith, Ank, Taly.

Also, I thought you were scum reading Taly. But maybe I misunderstood something.

I was nullreading Taly. But I townread Ank and she seems to have a pretty strong grasp on Taly's meta.

[Dannflor]

I think that post only comes from Allo if he actually is desperate, which he could still be as scum-- but I also think he'd be more likely to hide it.

Especially if, as you're saying, he might be putting on an act, it'd be weoyto abruptly drop the act and show his genuine fear.

This makes sense. I guess I just find the progression from frustration that people are yolo-pairing and repeated assertions that people should wait as long as possible to pair, to suddenly asking a null read to dance without really interacting with her or doing anything else to be very jarring.

You're right though, it could be town desperation too, and that's how I read Vedith's early game play as well. I guess the difference is Vedith was honest with his desperation from the start.

[Krazy]

Taly any progress on bottom two ladies/bottom three gents? Given a few people listed Allo as their top fos, and he has offered a dance to Brie, do you feel Allo should be paired?

[Allomancer]

This makes sense. I guess I just find the progression from frustration that people are yolo-pairing and repeated assertions that people should wait as long as possible to pair, to suddenly asking a null read to dance without really interacting with her or doing anything else to be very jarring.

We're halfway through predance. It's time to pair

[Pink Ball]

I expect the scumteam to have me as null in this game, specially after pairing with dr worm who, despite being townread now, it's easy to "change their mind" about him and mislynch us. Guess what fuckos: not gonna happen

[Nancy Drew 39]

Actually, just for full disclosure on my problems with yesterday

(And to be fair here)

RC

should've spoken to ME in the thread about

Krazy

OR whenever he became 100% confident with

Ank

scum and thought pairing to leave her first dance was a VIABLE idea.

(Since Nancy was in the thread at the time, and RC townreads me/Her the most out of the Ladies)

This is why town NEEDS communication and teamwork in this game more than anything.

But you know... shoulda'coulda'woulda'

I'm done bitching. I'm gonna play.

(I'm liking this game a lot, tbh.)

Firebringer

, are we cool now?

I was completely shocked that he gave her an invitation in the first place. I was sure if he didn’t pick me, he’d pick you. However RC was right about him and me having a better shot at making it to endgame, because I’m still being scumread, so less chance we’d be NK’d.

Also Ank pairing with him out of concern for being lynched by him, makes less sense that giving him the power to leave her. I think this pairing was poorly thought out and emotionally based. This is why I believed it was better for me to leave pre-dance, than to be in a potentially emotionally volatile pairing.

But we need at least two obvtown pairings that won’t combust, so I think ideally both of us should have been paired with RC/Dan to ensure a town win. What’s the most important thing is, that you and whomever you pair up with, be able to accurately read each other.

That said, you probably shouldn’t rush into the pairing just yet. You’ve been playing extremely rationally, which others would be wise to follow suit.

[Pink Ball]

By the way, now that I'm paired I can freely claim my coinage: I'm the 5 coin lady