Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[RadiantCowbells]

like im concerned about potentially having a townie pairing LYNCHED

no lynch? sure leggo

[RadiantCowbells]

like if anything i still thin ka power play is for everyone to NL as soon as they get into the thread

[Krazy]

I'm not writing productive things at this point so I'm just gonna take a break from this game for tonight

[Ankamius]

RC am I getting through

[RadiantCowbells]

i have heard what you're saying

[Ankamius]

are you still certain I'm going to leave at 6p

[RadiantCowbells]

i really don't want to talk to you publicly

[Ankamius]

well

I tried at least

[RadiantCowbells]

pls clarify that you caught the word publicly?

[Ankamius]

I did, yes

[Dr Worm]

ALLOMASTER - SINCERE and reading EVRYTHING w/o picking at DUMB SUPERFICIAL STUFF

it seemed like you felt pretty good about this read at the time, when did he stop being town in your heart?

in HEART SLOWLY over 4 ZILLION posts in this game,, in DR WORM"S MIND RECENT starting 2604!!

HEART and MIND big DIFFRANCE!!

[Something_Smart]

The only person casting shade about you in regard to your ability is S_S and he's probably scum or something anyway

I don't recall doing this, unless you meant when I was talking about Lone Wolf, which was more about how I didn't think I'd get along with RC than anything.

But the real message here is more troubling... not only are you implying that my opinion on RC's skill is somehow related to my alignment, you're implying that anyone questioning RC's skill is scummy.

That is, at the very minimum, silencing dissenting opinions in the manner of groupthink. Although this could have been manipulative, it's likely you were just trying to reassure RC.

Which is a reasonable goal. But don't do it like that. It contributes to a harmful mindset and it helps nobody.

[Krazy]

Spoiler: Just don't read this

Am I supposed to be reassuring RC?

That's what fucking pisses me off about this. RC implodes every other game day 1 because he thinks people will give him shit about his scum play, when his scum play is to be gross and manipulative on the emotional level. So his solution is to be gross and manipulative as town instead? What the fuck?

I thought he was fine *until he started using his leaving the dance as a means of driving his agenda* while simultaneously apparently not thinking about what advantages that gives scum both in dance 1 and in intermission

He wants to play the game, he can promise to continue sorting so that we can see whether people actually scumread him or not. How the fuck are we supposed to interpret people's reactions from his slot? Why would scum fucking deal with his slot at all? He's turning RC-Ank into a black hole of reads where the scum team has no motivation to care about defending a read one way or the other, unless someone like Dann is scum and is just trying to gain towncred for calling it T/T

I just wish I could have a game where I could actually fucking sort him without him making it seem like the higher priority should be in talking him off a goddamn cliff. And since that has now never happened on his main account I don't see why I would bother thinking the pattern would change.

He made it so that the first serious question we were dealing with him was not "what is RC's alignment" but instead was "should we try to stop RC from leaving the dance"

which is a STUPID

FUCKING

QUESTION

Like, me getting pissed at him here does not make him town. Like, am I supposed to be promising him he is an "endgame pairing" when I have not fucking wanted to discuss who I see as endgame pairings since that makes it easier for scum to decide who to kill in intermission? I don't see how RC approaches this game from a Town POV and sees "either I'm in the final pairings or I'm dead immediately" as the best options. Why the fuck would he not just accept he MIGHT NOT be one of the last 4 pairings and try to lynch as much scum before then and get the best endgame pairings? Why not project confidence and try to eat a bullet? Why would he announce he is committing suicide when that assures he will not eat a bullet instead? Why would he announce he is leaving the dance BEFORE second dance? Why would he announce he is leaving the dance rather than simply *leaving the dance* when he is ready? Now he has me wondering whether this is all just Wifom BULLSHIT so that he CAN deepwolf. If he thinks scum will usually shoot him, why not just try to eat the bullet and therefore protect his townreads? The way he has done this not only fucks my scumreads but they fuck his and I don't get why he would play it like that

And of course his choices have made it exponentially more difficult to read him, but HE COULD HAVE JUST NOT MADE ANY THREATS

If he's going to do this shit, then let him do it. He thinks he's not an endgame pairing, I see no reason to disbelieve him. I just want him to stop making it so fucking obvious because he is actively making it more difficult for the people who are playing the game to scumhunt.

I'm just really fucking done with him to be honest.

[Krazy]

But the real message here is more troubling... not only are you implying that my opinion on RC's skill is somehow related to my alignment, you're implying that anyone questioning RC's skill is scummy.

No, I am saying that posts like this:

Scum-RC's basically a god of scumplay. No, he's not ACTUALLY a god of scumplay, but he's BASICALLY a god of scumplay...

RC is a very strong scum player. Since you haven't played with him as scum, I'd recommend you not allow him to get above null-town unless you're explicitly sheeping someone else who knows him better.

are the wifomy bullshit posts that apparently seem to validate his sense that his slot cannot be evaluated objectively

So no, I am not saying people questioning RC's skill is scummy, I was saying you specifically made a very loaded accusation against him, and you were basically the only one in the thread to do so, but he basically acts like everyone thinks like 2271 is how people actually see him

[Krazy]

I probably should have tossed that into scream into the void but whatever

I just don't want Ank thinking that me being pissed here means I actually have a stronger townread of RC when I don't, and my uncertainty just makes me even more angry.

And I don't want Nancy coming in and thanking me for trying to talk RC out when that's not even what I was doing

[Ankamius]

Let's just take things one step at a time for now and the OoG stuff can come in after the game is over

It's not impossible that we are in a situation where all this is completely unnecessary and it turns out we kill all 3 scum by the end of first dance or something

Just focus and let the two of us work through what we need to; RC is at least willing to talk to me in a private PT and that's hopefully a good sign that we will be able to get through the rest of the game without imploding

[Gamma Emerald]

Here's my point;

If I can't convince people of my allignment, then I'll let my flip do so.

Problem is, my dear, you flipping town won't convince people of Dann's alignment. So please, don't talk like you're going to get lynched. I won't let them.

Okay interesting

[Gamma Emerald]

like im concerned about potentially having a townie pairing LYNCHED

no lynch? sure leggo

like if anything i still thin ka power play is for everyone to NL as soon as they get into the thread

Wtf this is still being considered a good idea?

[Dannflor]

Hi, I can't sleep, so I'm back, but I got my break. I'll also be busy all day tomorrow so wanted to get one last check in before I'm gone for potentially 24 hours. (also relatively busy most of the week)

Spoiler: pvt and dt

So, PvT is town. I don't see any other explanation.

Right now I'm more worried about what I can learn from the game, rather than what I can do for town here. Regardless of Dann's actual allignment, I've royally screwed myself with my tunnel in a place where I'm not feeling the ability to push it (first time for this to appear), as well as the ability to read the game without tilt or bias.

I'd avocate for a Dann flip, but it's much more for my selfish, ego related reasons than what's potentially best for the game.

Just haven't been knowing how to interact or progress with the game for the past few days.

This alone makes me feel somewhat better. It circles back to what was said before about how scum has basically no motivation to put themselves in this position or 1v1 me at this stage of the game. This post outlines that... and it's genuine. I really believe that Pvt really believes I am scum, and is unable to see past that to the the rest of the game.

@Pvt

, I want to ask you, if you pretend I flip town, who do you think is scum? It's kinda okay if you can't answer that though, I don't expect you to. I fully believe you just can't see past me in this game. While unfortunate, it definitely makes you town.

didnt read Pvt's iso at all, but in general

scums do not want to be too dense with their behavior in the thread. when confronted, they are likely to cooperate, unless they are lika a pretty experienced scum if you know what i mean i think when i checked his post count it wasn't too many posts

idk if there are people better at reading him and they read him town and if his 'attitude' is a main reason you scum read him, chances are, he's just a stubborn town who is just being a stick up his butt because they cant handle being 'wrongly' scum read (cough cough nancy cough cough)

This too, simultaneously makes me feel good about both Thomas and PvT. I'll admit I've been very frustrated with not being able to engage with Pvt, but this logic of "scums do not want to be too dense with their behavior" is absolutely correct. And is much more sense than whatever emotions I was feeling.

As far as DT, I really like the logic here and it's consistent with other good towny thoughts he's had:

it's just gut tone read. they seem to have "i dont care about what others think" and expresses opinion in a bold way

of course, scums also try to manipulate this kinda tone, but the genuinity is different slightly, imo, when they are scum and town

scums are afraid to admit this and publicly announce it

I like this sort of logic a lot and I think reads based on it is a lot more likely to be driven from a town place than not. It's not surface level and it's the type of logic I mindmeld with a lot. Additionally, I think DT is town for similar reasons I strongly townread Taly. A Town vs. Town 1v1 between me and PvT is good for scum. Straight up. Pvt likely gets lynched at some point and enough paranoia is sewn about me that maybe I can get lynched later. Town vs. Town 1v1s are ALWAYS good for scum and that's what I strongly believe this is now. DT stepping in to try and explain why my read on PvT may be wrong and not stoking the flames is a very town motivated move.

While I'm catching up on the most recent pages, I can also say Pvt is town for the same reasons, for this:

I'm feeling one/both of you are missing eachothers points here

Not as strong as what Taly or DT did of course, but combined with all the other stuff, also makes me feel good about Pvt. Anyways, moving on.

Pvt's case on me is... I mean, I believe he thinks it means I'm scum. And I'll admit my entrance was not the best or leastways not the most alignment indicative. But, Pvt, I do see you conf biasing and I think you're just straight up avoiding my later play? By conf biasing I mean the way you interpret my #211 to be complaining about the state of the game when I'm responding to being called out for my NAI mech talk (which is fair) by pointing out that no one has done much of anything AI. This is fluffy game. More egregious is your interpretation of my #339? You're trying to imply I flipflopped on my Nancy read but where are you getting that I implied I didn't scumread Nancy in my #339? I very clearly did at that point.

I think if you continued to read my play throughout the game with an unbiased eye you would come to different conclusions too. I have a very transparent playstyle where I do go into several reads and explain why I have them. And I would hope people that think I'm scummy would point out where that is in my thought processes, if things seem contrived or if my logic is agenda driven. I've been actively trying to advance this game for a while, and my NAI entrance doesn't change that.

However, I don't expect to change your mind. I don't think I will, unfortunately. You've changed mine though, you're very town. + Pink Ball's meta case finally makes sense to me.

====================

Spoiler: reads ig

Okay, one last reads list and stuff as I gather my thoughts since I'll be busy this coming week and my activity will probably be lower until the pre-dance deadline. I don't think posting full lists is as dangerous anymore considering we have the main pairings figured out and the others are coming together.

The reads in the individual lines aren't in any particualar order

Confident Town: Taly, Nancy, Pvturist
Town: DoubtingThomas, Krazy, Ankamius, RadiantCowbells, Dr Worm, Pink Ball
Prolly Town: Firebringer, Vedith, TheBrie
=====
Null: Gamma, Moment
=====
maybe scum?: Something_Smart (this is a volatile read)
Prolly Scum: Allomancer

Actually, writing it at, my pool for scum is pretty low. But I'm okay with that, I feel like I have good reasons to town read the people I town read. The gamestate is still problematic because I think things would feel different if scum were actually in trouble, but maybe I'm wrong. Almost wrote out several paragraphs on that topic but realized it was useless to talk about now and we should probably just cross that bridge when we come to it. Firebringer is maybe my least sure town read, but I think that's only because it's been a while since I've seen him do anything and I've mostly been trusting people that can read him/his style well.

After working through my PvT read logically, I really really don't see how he can be scum beyond some WIFOM arguments. But even the WIFOM arguments don't make sense.

So with that, my personal ideal pairs would probably be TheBrie/Doubting_Thomas or TheBrie/Pvturist as a strong town pair. Than whichever gent of those two doesn't go with Brie should go with the most town out of Gamma/Moment/Something_Smart. I'm including S_S because my read on him keeps oscillating every time I look at his ISO and I think he could potentially be a town read depending on what he does going forward. The remaining two can pair, that last one will probably be the first lynch.

Still don't think Allo should progress

[TheBrie]

DoubtingThomas and Pvturist haven't asked me though, and Moment and Allo have. Still stuck between them. So if people want to be helpful, they can tell me why I should go with one of the other, or why I should hold out for another invitation.

Good night.

[Taly]

I would, however, like to know in advance who SS is pairing with. I think he's town, but if people are going to lynch him anyways I would like him paired with a scummier Gent.

If you think

S_S

is town, then why are you OK with a lynch there?

also I'm skimming right now, but I'm a bit sad that people are continuing to say

Me+Krazy

is a bad pairing when I gave multiple opportunities for several people to case a reason, AND an alternative. I also outlined my reasoning for the pairing, and I don't think people have really engaged with that as much as they should, if they feel this doubtful.

I don't think people are being fair here.

[Taly]

I have math to do; I just wanted to drop in and see the thread, I'll be on later.



I woke up in a slightly stormy mood.

[Taly]

Krazy

, we're not forcing anything until it's discussed between both us and the public thread.

A reason you have my coins is because you seemed less quick to vote based on how you strategize and approach this game/setup.

Don't let emotions rule you. ^_^

[Something_Smart]

So no, I am not saying people questioning RC's skill is scummy, I was saying you specifically made a very loaded accusation against him, and you were basically the only one in the thread to do so, but he basically acts like everyone thinks like 2271 is how people actually see him

2271 is not an accusation of anything. It is a claim that he is very good at playing scum. That statement is objectively true or false irrespective of the number of people who have said it.

[Taly]

OK actually, that 2 second pity part is over.

Krazy

- maintain homestasis and chill

<3 <3 <3

OK I need to prepare for Math tutoring session in 45 minutes so bye

*final thought; now is a

SHITTY

time to discuss which pairings are endgame-material because that tells scum how to play *