Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[Taly]

I played with scum!Taly in Labrynth and I locktowned him in SC 2 or have you forgotten about that?

My point is, do you disagree that he is the most widely read obvtown player in this game, if town?

I'm thinking about my Taly read, if Labyrinth Mafia is the most significant scum game for her that you're basing your read on I'll bear that in mind when I do a meta dive later this week

Didn’t someone also say, a scumtell for Taly, was to be town leader or something?

But he is nothing here, like he was in Labrynth. He was super aggressive in that, as in “how can you be townreading X” and I’m hard townreading Y with the negative utility role that can fuck town over.

Like if you disagreed with his reads, he hardpushed you. And there was also not an iota of the genuineness we see here. I don’t care how good someone is at scum, there’s just some things are not easily fakable. Like no offense to Taly but I just don’t believe he’s that good. I don’t even believe RC is that good.

eh. I've been known to be town leader and aggressive as BOTH alignments... but the circumstances, tone, and way I handle myself can be very different.

overall

nancy's

pretty accurate here - but me discussing self-meta isn't going to help you guys sort me. People have metadived me and jumped to false conclusions and lost before, so I'll make this easier for anyone who wants to use meta to read me.

So here are a few of my recent town games in the last year:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76441 -

My posting style and activity changed a bit from this. Thank god I don't do 1000 posts a time... I still am more conversational as town.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78296 -

I shamefully replaced out. But this is my latest town-game. It's worth reading.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78198 -

Another very recent town-game that I DIDN'T replace out. I recommend reading this as a given.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75978 -

This is my town-game at its best I believe, but also a bit more on the stress, "I want to fight" scale.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75347 -

I think this is the oldest of the linked games, but it still qualifies within the 1-year mark and has some reliable meta-tells on it.

A few of my recent scum games in the last year:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=76098 -

Perfect Scum Victory - My scum-game at its best so far. A reason why

the worst

doesn't trust me in mafia. lol

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=78138 -

I rolled town in one game, and scum in another... I got lynched by PoE D2 in my scum game. You'll see a BIG difference in my attitude toward the game from when I focused on my scum role in D1 - versus my town role in D2.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76341 -

Of course... the game everyone wants to mention me in. I was a traitor in Labyrinth and I replaced out late-game. Yes, it's a good example of me as scum but not the best imo.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76118 -

One of my first and weakest scum-games I think. Echo Bay has been mentioned, so I linked this.

~

I didn't like the sheeping, quick townreads on me in Pre-Dance - so everyone questioning their read on me is getting a +1.

Also, a PT with

Krazy

has only strengthened my townread on him. I have a good case on how he's very, very likely town.

[Taly]

Self Meta (Ignore At Will):

I would not IC

Urist

right after I scumcased him as scum. That's too risky, even for setting up a WIFOM argument.

I'm not a very risky scum-player.

~

RC/Ank

being town helps me feel better, and I'm glad that to see my push on

Urist

was misguided. I should've taken better initiative on my notes around

Allo

- I'm going to look at all the people who consistently dismissed his posting especially near late-Pre-Dance.

Gamma/Urist

coming in with reads tell me that they're being cohesive with discussion and therefore working to gamesolve. I feel better about this being a town/town pairing.

Gamma

Why is

Dann/Nancy

on the lower side of your reads?
Thoughts on

S_S+DT

?

Urist

You still haven't really responded to my case against you, though. Even if you're town, are you going to address those points?
Why do you think you're IC'ed?

Nancy

, how do you feel about

Dann

right now? I don't want a blanket statement on

"he's X alignment"

, I want to hear reasons.

[Taly]

Full transparency, my complacence with the lack of any push about me in first gamephase was because I was baiting the NK.

That plan halted when

RC/Ank

kept stating

Krazy

was scummy, and I got upset because I felt like I was being setup to suicide or become lynchbait. :/

I was going to say that I'm unhappy with anyone continuing the narrative that I've been pocketed - but I don't think that applies to the gamestate anymore?

[Pink Ball]

Before someone else says it, if I were scum I would've probably proposed to make Urist IC 'cause I was one of the few players saying he was town on D1, so I wouldn't have to keep defending him and still be consistent with my reads, 'cause I proposed a Gamma/Urist pairinh and from anyone's scum POV, that's a pairing you can take to an eventual LyLo.

But since I'm not scum and I doubt they thought about that 'cause I don't see anybody trying to frame me, I think the most logical answer is creating WIFOM for Gamma, who I think it's town

[Pink Ball]

And by the way, I had this written before Allomancer flipped but the thread locked before I could post it. I posted it in my lover thread with Dr Worm, which has been a blast for anyone wondering!

Allomancer, you poor fella
Sadly, you've been left out
Outside this game you'll find your bella
Of that I have no doubt

But now it's time to go
I hope you understand
Even if this is your death row
For you we all shall stand

[Firebringer]

pvurist is confirmed town here taly. why would he respond to ur case.

[Taly]

Your whole point here relies on a hypothetical idea - of which - you haven't really stated that you legit think

Vedith

is scum?

My point RISKS Vedith being scum. If he's scum, he could cause trouble. I don't know if he's scum, that's what I'm asking all of YOU about.

Likely I thought

Vedith

would be more oriented to get through the game upon Second Dance, but I'm not quite sure. I don't remember many - if any - experiences with him, so I don't know the grounds of why people were questioning him.

Is

Vedith

scum to you? It seems you do, otherwise you wouldn't make any plan that relies on the uncertain chance he's scum?

I don't think so, but it's not impossible. That's why I want other people's opinions...

(And also, Vedith being scum wouldn't automatically make the plan fail. He'd have to decide it was best and beat both RC and Ank to the thread.)

This makes more sense.

You've mentioned

Krazy

doing something that I assumed made you suspicion of him 3693, but you haven't said anything about the fact that he has 7 coins. What's the difference of here?
7 votes isn't enough to lynch someone before intermission.

Still, I figured it would be significant.

Side note - I was going to wallpost this, but too many words will drown out my thinking towards your posts in the past 2 days. Some of your reads seem based on how people interact with your slot, and I don't fully vibe with it?

Another thing is -

RC+Ank

aren't auto-suiciding very stupidly anymore to my understanding. So 3934 seems misplaced, and again, you're talking about how

RC

has an endgame plan but are listing how he'd play as BOTH scum or town here?

I don't comprehend your line of thinking here, and it reads as you not having many unique reads beyond what the thread has notioned in some form.

Go ahead and ask about anything specific that confuses you, I don't really know how to respond to this.

what plan were you talking about with

RC

that showed he had a way to win this game and why did it revolve around him and

Ank's

death?

[Pink Ball]

To do list:
- look who was content with Allo being left out / people wanting him yto stay. Decide which of the contents had no reasoning behind that / decide who defending him could've been trying to pair him with a potential mislynch.
- read Ank and RC's ISO
- push SS

[Taly]

Before someone else says it, if I were scum I would've probably proposed to make Urist IC 'cause I was one of the few players saying he was town on D1, so I wouldn't have to keep defending him and still be consistent with my reads, 'cause I proposed a Gamma/Urist pairinh and from anyone's scum POV, that's a pairing you can take to an eventual LyLo.

But since I'm not scum and I doubt they thought about that 'cause I don't see anybody trying to frame me, I think the most logical answer is creating WIFOM for Gamma, who I think it's town

What are your reads at the moment?

pvurist is confirmed town here taly. why would he respond to ur case.

I want him to defend and explain his reads or thought process at the time. My case didn't have 0 questions in them either.

He felt strongly about

Dann

, and I want to see the evolution of that read too, since he's town.

p-edit

To do list:
- look who was content with Allo being left out / people wanting him yto stay. Decide which of the contents had no reasoning behind that / decide who defending him could've been trying to pair him with a potential mislynch.
- read Ank and RC's ISO
- push SS

Weren't you OK with

Allo

being left out?

And why is someone defending

Allo

automatically someone who was trying to pair him up to as a mislynch? Am I scum because I second-guessed the reads there?

I don't remember anyone else entertaining

Allo

-town.

You're not evaluating all the flaws in the lack of reading his slot beyond

"this is scum-motivated"

.

[Taly]

If urist doesn't pair today and flips scum, I'll reconsider my read on DanceFloor.

VOTE: No lynch Dance 1 or whatever the phrasing was stupid phone posting p-edit yeah it was correct

Urist

is town. Does that mean

Dann

is likelier scum to you?

[Pink Ball]

@taly deciding who was defending him to mislynch him clearly implies that not everyone was doing that: you could've been defending him because you thought he was town. I want to reread to decide if I can get anything about Allo that could be useful. Yes, I was one of the players scumreading Allo and wanted him to be left out.

Also no, I said that if Urist flipped scum, I would've thought Dann was scum, not the other way. I said that 'cause the last scumgame I saw from Urist, the only push he commited to was his scumpartner

[Taly]

I need to leave, but I'll definitely get to your post

PB

But can you also talk to me about your

S_S

read? I want to see why you want to push them as I don't see much interaction or read about him in Pre-Dance from you.

[Pink Ball]

His "we sheep RC after he flips town" followed by RC dying

[Something_Smart]

what plan were you talking about with RC that showed he had a way to win this game and why did it revolve around him and Ank's death?

RC had near-lock townreads on Moment/Brie and Dann/Nancy, and the plan was simply to kill everyone except them. The problem was that RC's reads couldn't have been trusted to be 100% genuine while he was alive, so he needed to die for it to work.

[Something_Smart]

His "we sheep RC after he flips town" followed by RC dying

The whole point of that was I was so paranoid of RC I didn't want to trust his reads while he was alive... why would I then kill him as scum?

[Pink Ball]

His "we sheep RC after he flips town" followed by RC dying

The whole point of that was I was so paranoid of RC I didn't want to trust his reads while he was alive... why would I then kill him as scum?

To "trust" his reads and take advantage of it

[Something_Smart]

So you think his reads were wrong?

If I wanted to do that couldn't I just say he was town and kill the all-town pair he was townreading?

[Something_Smart]

That would be better, because then he'd push for the other pair to be the last pair alive...

[Pink Ball]

Yes I'm saying he could be wrong on one pairing and you could use that to your benefit. SS if you're town, you think this doesn't make sense? 'cause I think it's pretty easy to understand what I'm saying.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I played with scum!Taly in Labrynth and I locktowned him in SC 2 or have you forgotten about that?

My point is, do you disagree that he is the most widely read obvtown player in this game, if town?

I'm thinking about my Taly read, if Labyrinth Mafia is the most significant scum game for her that you're basing your read on I'll bear that in mind when I do a meta dive later this week

Didn’t someone also say, a scumtell for Taly, was to be town leader or something?

But he is nothing here, like he was in Labrynth. He was super aggressive in that, as in “how can you be townreading X” and I’m hard townreading Y with the negative utility role that can fuck town over.

Like if you disagreed with his reads, he hardpushed you. And there was also not an iota of the genuineness we see here. I don’t care how good someone is at scum, there’s just some things are not easily fakable. Like no offense to Taly but I just don’t believe he’s that good. I don’t even believe RC is that good.

eh. I've been known to be town leader and aggressive as BOTH alignments... but the circumstances, tone, and way I handle myself can be very different.

overall

nancy's

pretty accurate here - but me discussing self-meta isn't going to help you guys sort me. People have metadived me and jumped to false conclusions and lost before, so I'll make this easier for anyone who wants to use meta to read me.

So here are a few of my recent town games in the last year:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76441 -

My posting style and activity changed a bit from this. Thank god I don't do 1000 posts a time... I still am more conversational as town.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78296 -

I shamefully replaced out. But this is my latest town-game. It's worth reading.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78198 -

Another very recent town-game that I DIDN'T replace out. I recommend reading this as a given.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75978 -

This is my town-game at its best I believe, but also a bit more on the stress, "I want to fight" scale.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75347 -

I think this is the oldest of the linked games, but it still qualifies within the 1-year mark and has some reliable meta-tells on it.

A few of my recent scum games in the last year:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=76098 -

Perfect Scum Victory - My scum-game at its best so far. A reason why

the worst

doesn't trust me in mafia. lol

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=78138 -

I rolled town in one game, and scum in another... I got lynched by PoE D2 in my scum game. You'll see a BIG difference in my attitude toward the game from when I focused on my scum role in D1 - versus my town role in D2.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76341 -

Of course... the game everyone wants to mention me in. I was a traitor in Labyrinth and I replaced out late-game. Yes, it's a good example of me as scum but not the best imo.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76118 -

One of my first and weakest scum-games I think. Echo Bay has been mentioned, so I linked this.

~

I didn't like the sheeping, quick townreads on me in Pre-Dance - so everyone questioning their read on me is getting a +1.

Also, a PT with

Krazy

has only strengthened my townread on him. I have a good case on how he's very, very likely town.

Okay, now I understand why I couldn’t convince STW of my townread on you in SC 2.

However, what’s missing from that game and is present here and blatantly so in SC 2, is the sincerity of tone. It’s a nuanced tell that I didn’t see in that game.

[Something_Smart]

Yes I'm saying he could be wrong on one pairing and you could use that to your benefit. SS if you're town, you think this doesn't make sense? 'cause I think it's pretty easy to understand what I'm saying.

I think it doesn't make sense, yes. Even if there's one scum is Dann/Nancy/Moment/Brie, lynching all the other pairs won't win scum the game; those two pairs will still get a chance to figure it out. Furthermore, there's no guarantee that people will respect RC's reads after he's dead.

Killing the town pair in those two seems stronger from that position. That way, RC will be alive and actively defending the other one, and he'll push to have them endgame, since he said multiple times he expected to be paranoia lynched. The only way this would be worse is if I'd think it would be absolutely impossible to paranoia lynch RC, which wouldn't make any sense with the way I've been playing.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Self Meta (Ignore At Will):

I would not IC

Urist

right after I scumcased him as scum. That's too risky, even for setting up a WIFOM argument.

I'm not a very risky scum-player.

~

RC/Ank

being town helps me feel better, and I'm glad that to see my push on

Urist

was misguided. I should've taken better initiative on my notes around

Allo

- I'm going to look at all the people who consistently dismissed his posting especially near late-Pre-Dance.

Gamma/Urist

coming in with reads tell me that they're being cohesive with discussion and therefore working to gamesolve. I feel better about this being a town/town pairing.

Gamma

Why is

Dann/Nancy

on the lower side of your reads?
Thoughts on

S_S+DT

?

Urist

You still haven't really responded to my case against you, though. Even if you're town, are you going to address those points?
Why do you think you're IC'ed?

Nancy

, how do you feel about

Dann

right now? I don't want a blanket statement on

"he's X alignment"

, I want to hear reasons.

Dann and me, decided to jumpstart discussing our reads, pre-flips. I thought it was both a smart way to help me sort Dann and get a headstart on reads, in case I slept though Dance 2 like in Witches’ Ball.

Reasons. I wanted to see if Dann’s reads were both pre and post flips, to look for any obvious inconsistencies or things that might not add up later.

And I felt pretty good about his reads, being nuanced and non-agenday. What struck me the most, was that he seemed really shocked about the Urist IC.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Your whole point here relies on a hypothetical idea - of which - you haven't really stated that you legit think

Vedith

is scum?

My point RISKS Vedith being scum. If he's scum, he could cause trouble. I don't know if he's scum, that's what I'm asking all of YOU about.

Likely I thought

Vedith

would be more oriented to get through the game upon Second Dance, but I'm not quite sure. I don't remember many - if any - experiences with him, so I don't know the grounds of why people were questioning him.

Is

Vedith

scum to you? It seems you do, otherwise you wouldn't make any plan that relies on the uncertain chance he's scum?

I don't think so, but it's not impossible. That's why I want other people's opinions...

(And also, Vedith being scum wouldn't automatically make the plan fail. He'd have to decide it was best and beat both RC and Ank to the thread.)

This makes more sense.

You've mentioned

Krazy

doing something that I assumed made you suspicion of him 3693, but you haven't said anything about the fact that he has 7 coins. What's the difference of here?
7 votes isn't enough to lynch someone before intermission.

Still, I figured it would be significant.

Side note - I was going to wallpost this, but too many words will drown out my thinking towards your posts in the past 2 days. Some of your reads seem based on how people interact with your slot, and I don't fully vibe with it?

Another thing is -

RC+Ank

aren't auto-suiciding very stupidly anymore to my understanding. So 3934 seems misplaced, and again, you're talking about how

RC

has an endgame plan but are listing how he'd play as BOTH scum or town here?

I don't comprehend your line of thinking here, and it reads as you not having many unique reads beyond what the thread has notioned in some form.

Go ahead and ask about anything specific that confuses you, I don't really know how to respond to this.

what plan were you talking about with

RC

that showed he had a way to win this game and why did it revolve around him and

Ank's

death?

Right, I was just thinking about that. Everyone is just assuming that Ank/RC were killed for being obvtown but if RC was planning on not making it to endgame anyway, being seen as obvtown, was probably not the only reason for his kill.

[Nancy Drew 39]

To do list:
- look who was content with Allo being left out / people wanting him yto stay. Decide which of the contents had no reasoning behind that / decide who defending him could've been trying to pair him with a potential mislynch.
- read Ank and RC's ISO
- push SS

Would scum!SS kill RC after claiming we should sheep RC’s reads post-flip?

[Something_Smart]

I think the point is, I might do that if RC was wrong on a read.

But I'd never do it if he wasn't, so Pink's push is based on an unproven premise that one of Dann/Nancy/Moment/Brie is scum.