Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[DoubtingThomas]

wait vedith and firebringer died?

They sure did, Vedith did in fact leave the dance. They are both flipped town.

It's NAI that I missed that fact. what are you trying to consider?

why did vedith leave the dance?

[DoubtingThomas]

I mean, I've already said Thomas was nulltown. I'm trusting RC on Dann and Brie, so if I were to drop anyone it'd be Gamma... but any read on Gamma will get drowned out by IC WIFOM.

Not really... Gamma isn't getting lynched first for sure. That doesn't mean we don't need to make a choice about her literally in the next 5 days.

why not?

[DoubtingThomas]

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

[Nancy Drew 39]

i am thinking you mentioning dann's specific post 4610 to town read him is odd because you have a PT with him

Yes but I can’t quote from there. Like wtf man first you think I need to be “re-evaluted” for asking why you posted in the main thread and not in your PT and now, it’s “odd” that I quote a post -

that the entire playerlist has access to

, to make my point.

???

[Gamma Emerald]

Rushing anything is bad but I think a lynch needs to be done by tomorrow. (Tuesday)

Otherwise the more discussion is made, the more muddled our reads and perception of the game become.

Sensible. We're on a strict timetable here.

[DoubtingThomas]

Krazy holding onto a meta case that I've already kinda said doesn't even apply anymore

and complaining about how "I might not even post before I wake up"

but being in the thread while I am posting a lot but not really trying to interact with me at all?

that's not a good look

[Krazy]

why did vedith leave the dance?

Didn't like Fire ignoring the PT and thought Fire might be scum iirc

why not?

Well feel like there's enough other pairs that are priority PoEs that there's no reason to eliminate the IC'd pairing first, even if we think Gamma's scum at least she's spewing.

I think you said a bit ago that you weren't really sure on PB, can you go over your Worm-PB read again when you get a chance? I'm starting to think maybe I should just sheep Taly because my reads feel kinda fucked.

[DoubtingThomas]

i am thinking you mentioning dann's specific post 4610 to town read him is odd because you have a PT with him

Yes but I can’t quote from there. Like wtf man first you think I need to be “re-evaluted” for asking why you posted in the main thread and not in your PT and now, it’s “odd” that I quote a post -

that the entire playerlist has access to

, to make my point.

???

I didn't know you can't quote frmo PT. but i assume you can talk about thing we talked about in PT? just not directly quote it? let me know if i am wrong

that being said, no you don't need to be re-evaluated because you asked me about some irrelavnat shit. you need to be re-evaluated because that's how a game of mafia works. be open minded and realize a read you've made in the very first phase of the game will bound to be imperfect, so definitely reevaluate after flips

dont tell me you dont reevaluate slots that's LOL

[Krazy]

Krazy holding onto a meta case that I've already kinda said doesn't even apply anymore

and complaining about how "I might not even post before I wake up"

but being in the thread while I am posting a lot but not really trying to interact with me at all?

that's not a good look

You know every time you add a reply it refreshes my pedit, and I actually read it right LOL

anyway, you *saying* the meta case doesn't hold up is not the same thing as me *agreeing* the meta case does not hold up. It's something I actually need to think about.

And yes, you didn't post at all on Saturday basically, and I think this is the first time you've posted at all in this time window this game, unless I'm misremembering something from early pre-dance. You almost exclusively post in a 1.5 hour window which starts in about 8 hours from now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I kinda want to flip a coin that can only land heads up and just assume Thomas is town... maybe a F6 of us/Nannflor/TheMoment?

Has he posted something in your PT to convince you he’s town? Or are you solely basing that on his derping about Vedith/Fire?

Since I wrongly read scum!Varsoon for derping in BoR, I am not that quick to tr anyone solely based on that.

[DoubtingThomas]

why did vedith leave the dance?

Didn't like Fire ignoring the PT and thought Fire might be scum iirc

why not?

Well feel like there's enough other pairs that are priority PoEs that there's no reason to eliminate the IC'd pairing first, even if we think Gamma's scum at least she's spewing.

I think you said a bit ago that you weren't really sure on PB, can you go over your Worm-PB read again when you get a chance? I'm starting to think maybe I should just sheep Taly because my reads feel kinda fucked.

What exactly do you want me to go over?

I initially put Worm at a really high town read because I kinda had much fun laughing at his meta. PB at lower town for tonal reasons.

Then I saw 3 towns die (and apparently 5 now cuz of vedith) so obviously I feel the need to reevaluate my town reads. just from pure statistical point of view having 3 towns flipped, chances are my town reads are scums. I lost a lot of my initial town feels/reads I had on some people except Taly, then I liked your meta case on me so put you at town, and have just reevaluated worm and pb to the point of null and am waiting to interact with them to get a better read on them

[DoubtingThomas]

I kinda want to flip a coin that can only land heads up and just assume Thomas is town... maybe a F6 of us/Nannflor/TheMoment?

Has he posted something in your PT to convince you he’s town? Or are you solely basing that on his derping about Vedith/Fire?

Since I wrongly read scum!Varsoon for derping in BoR, I am not that quick to tr anyone solely based on that.

how is me derping about vedith/fire alignment indicative

[DoubtingThomas]

Alright, but he won't be posting for another 10-11 hours based on his schedule.

This is not really a gamestate that dramatically rewards going 10 hours of waiting for someone to post reads they should have posted 3 days ago.

it's kinda gross you keep a schedule check on me LOL

[DoubtingThomas]

Krazy holding onto a meta case that I've already kinda said doesn't even apply anymore

and complaining about how "I might not even post before I wake up"

but being in the thread while I am posting a lot but not really trying to interact with me at all?

that's not a good look

You know every time you add a reply it refreshes my pedit, and I actually read it right LOL

anyway, you *saying* the meta case doesn't hold up is not the same thing as me *agreeing* the meta case does not hold up. It's something I actually need to think about.

And yes, you didn't post at all on Saturday basically, and I think this is the first time you've posted at all in this time window this game, unless I'm misremembering something from early pre-dance. You almost exclusively post in a 1.5 hour window which starts in about 8 hours from now.

so you don't have questions for me prepared? Even though you had a very long case on me/scum reading me to an extent but not 100% sold on me being scum and wants to see my flip?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I really want to see Krazy's flip here.

Based on your deep wolf theory? What if you’re wrong and we just lost another helpful townie in this game?

We both agree on Taly being obvtown, so for that reason alone, I strongly oppose Krazy lynch at this time. He is also one of my strongest townreads. No offense but I trust Taly’s Krazy read over yours.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I will say if Dannflor flips scum he just spewed me and Thomas town really hard.

I kinda want to flip a coin that can only land heads up and just assume Thomas is town... maybe a F6 of us/

Nannflor

/TheMoment?

*confused*

[DoubtingThomas]

Also I will say if Dannflor flips scum he just spewed me and Thomas town really hard.

I kinda want to flip a coin that can only land heads up and just assume Thomas is town... maybe a F6 of us/

Nannflor

/TheMoment?

*confused*

what's to confuse about

[Krazy]

so you don't have questions for me prepared? Even though you had a very long case on me/scum reading me to an extent but not 100% sold on me being scum and wants to see my flip?

Yeah, I wanted to see your flip because I kinda reached the point that I wasn't sure I could sort you by asking questions.

Like, if it's not you first, then I would say I want to lynch PB for this progression on you:

Spoiler:

So my final suggestion is:
PvtUrist/Gamma
Moment/TheBrie
DoubtingThomas/SS
Allonely, I'm so lonely (8)

I support PinkBall's suggestions for pairings. It'll be interesting what input the people actually involved provide however particularly because I think there's likely some scum in there.

So my final suggestion is:
PvtUrist/Gamma
Moment/TheBrie
DoubtingThomas/SS
Allonely, I'm so lonely (8)

not bad

saying people are okay with pairing you with SS is basically saying they're okay with lynching you with dance 1 at this point, in case the subtext here isn't clear

I mean I kinda poe'd you as scum but I have never really seen anything that makes me think there's a smoking gun, I just haven't seen a lot of sorting from you. So if you think Pvt or Moment should be with SS instead of you, you need to kind of say why

Not true. I'm not scumreading either of them

mostly because I have a hard time comprehending why PB would put you at the bottom of his list next to Allo and then backpedal to saying he was "not scumreading" you.

I'm still not sure that's a stronger case than the one on you, and I'm still not sure I buy your "that's not my meta" rebuttal. I'm not a player that really thrives on lots of jerky interactions with someone who hasn't read the thread. Why would your reads right now be alignment indicative or make me feel better about you when you are only responding to what people say in real time based on things you don't have context for?

So yeah, if you're re-evaluating your PB read, I'd like to hear it... but it doesn't help me at all for you to say "well I'm not caught up and I'm not going to get caught up"... that makes your slot basically unreadable because it is unable to separate dumbtells from actual sorting. And I feel like you are capable of more cohesive processing as town.

Like, you seeming slightly more townie is something that makes me think, "Oh, maybe I should go reread PB again," not "oh I should spam 50 questions to someone who hasn't read the thread"

[Nancy Drew 39]

This is difficult. Gut reads I'm just gonna go 2, 3, 5 as town and 1 and 4 as scum

Am I the only one who found this incomprehensible?

THEBREAD is NOT reading!!

Yeah it does seen like she skipped my walls

you don't want to pressure thebrie for ignoring your post which has been a topic in the thread for several posts now?

either way that is anti town

Did she say it was intentional, because I don’t know why you’re assuming that?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

I originally gave DT a town read in #3418, which reading back, I believe are pretty weak reasons. The posts I outline in DT's ISO that I think are representative of towny thought processes... aren't that impressive? I may have too hastily lumped DT into my sudden strong PvT town read just due to DT's explanation in #3216 where he lowkey supported a PvT town. I'm not sure if that's something scum wouldn't point out that. The same goes for his other "towny" talking points.

#1265Gets referenced a lot when explaining town reads on the DT slot... and I don't get it? It's a bunch of gut/tone reads and then justification for not having to explain those.

i also partly dont like explaining every single small things that come to my mind because

1) chances are they are wrong
2) chances are my own opinion of them change later on
3) they clog up the thread unnecessarily we honestly don't need every single detail of thoughts that I have

now, if you accept my love reqeust and we get a lovers chat, i can, of course, explain all the little things you want

This actually pings me quite a bit. Sure, you can be like "scum would never wanna be this brazen and admit this," but I don't think that's a strong enough argument.

1) Town shouldn't care about being wrong. Rather, they shouldn't care about that potential making them look suspicious. Scum care if they're caught being wrong and the associatives look bad for them.
2) Opinion changes are natural and one of the hardest things in the game for scum to fake with authenticity.
3) Sure... But there's a difference between clogging up the thread unnecessarily with every single detail and just saying "x is town" and "x is scum" off of pure gut and tone reads.

My problem with DT is that the things people point to when they say he looks towny are fairly lazy and not proactive. His entire ISO is waiting for people to come to him and interact with him. Very rarely does he take the initiative in pressuring people and it doesn't look like he's trying to proactively solve the game. There's a lot of "engage with me," but not a lot of engaging that's actually solving.

Like, I actually am calling you a flat out liar about you claiming to come on at the same time as me.

how the fuck am i a liar?

i never fucking lie as either alignment

like as scum i would definitely scum read you for things i would scum read as town to begin with so i dont understand what you mean by calling me a liar lol

Stuff like this also makes me doubt the strength of town reads on him. I think people tend to like him for how genuine his reads seem, but their surface level enough that I don't see why it couldn't just as easily be faked by scum.

Look at his progression in the pre-dance too:

Spoiler:

i think i am at the point where i'd rather just out in pre dance if i dont get brie maybe

This pings me. Specifically because it's so noncommittal. RC and Ank were obv!town because it was blatantly obvious they both believed the other was scum and was willing to leave the dance to take the other one out. Here, DT suggests he might just stay out of the pre-dance since he scum reads both Gamma and SS. Hey! That might actually be good for town and it's obviously a town motivated thing to do. Except he's never gonna actually do this, so what's the point in saying this?

taly i am at the point where i can sheep you shamelessly


who should i pair up with

and who are your scum reads

can we like start talking about parnters

@everyone who doesnt have a partner

but that means i need an actual town partner

who wants to partner up with me :/

Gamma, are you town?

stop fucking fighting over nothing when your boi doesnt even have a partner and is about to die

You, Pvt, Allo, Gamma, me.

I'm annoyed Brie took Moment's invitation without waiting for him to okay it, but I feel like the fact that I waited and Brie didn't should make me clearly town.

I like this post

gamma, if ss doesn't accept my shit and take whoever you want, will you take me to da dance

I just don't like the progression from "maybe I should just sit out" to looking for reasons to town read one of SS or Gamma. This is the kind of desperation I don't like. I don't think it's genuine trying to figure out who among the last ladies is scummier or townies, it's just looking for reasons to town read one of them so he can look fine going to the dance with them.

I'm also concerned that DT isn't actually pushing anyone. Like SS/DT is probably gonna be the first or second lynch and yet... His big most recent wall post is just defending himself from Krazy's meta case. He isn't offering up alternatives, and idk what his scum reads even are atm. Gamma?

@Thomas,

which pair is your preferred first lynch? And why haven't you made any efforts to push there? What are your reads rnow? Is SS strong town? Have you guys interacted in your PT at all?

@SS,

I think you're pretty strongly town. What is your read on DT? Also, I know you're struggling because your scum reads are all strongly town read by someone. But who is your first lynch ideally if you had complete control? Me and Nancy? What if we both flipped town?

I really really don't think we should be lynching Moment/Brie first. I have Brie as pretty strongly town (something I should probably elaborate on when I have mroe sleep tomorrow) and while I don't have a good read on Moment, I really think the amount RC + Ank pushed for Moment!town + the fact Moment hasn't even posted yet means lynching there is a terrible idea. Obviously, inactivity is harmful either way, but we might be fucking up a really strong T/T pairing as Ank and RC thought without even letting Moment get her thoughts in. I feel like maybe scum saw Moment/Brie as a threat pre-dance and are now trying to quickly dispatch of them.

There's also the fact that the reads there feel... Pretty lackluster?

Nancy can't elaborate on her Brie read

, Gamma's scum reading Moment for... not answering some question 30 pages ago. I forget what else. It's just scaring me how this pairing is the first being pushed after RC and Ank died. At the very least, it shouldn't be the first flip imo.

VOTE: DT

Please don’t lump me in with any of this. Moment’s absence is definitely hurting the game, we can’t ignore that fact. There is only a little over 5 days left! And no, I can’t elaborate on Brie, because as I already told you in our PT, I don’t want to get into trouble. I’m kind of upset that you seem to have jumped to the wrong conclusion. Sure, I absolutely could elaborate on it but I don’t know how to do that without being in violation of site rules. Yes, it’s extremely frustrating but not wanting to risk a ban is /= to lacking reasons.

Whenever I say in any game ever, that I can’t elaborate or discuss anything, that is ALWAYS what I mean

. Krazy, I think was bordering on doing something similar with you and since I also couldn’t comment on that, for similar reasons, I tried to nip it in the bud, because explaining it, is against the rules not just on here but on any mafia site. Capiche? God!

scummy overreaction, tbh

How is this an “overreaction”, let alone a “scummy” one?

dude made an entire wall literally dedicated to how I am scum but then you had to make a paragraph to try to explain how "you don't want to be lumped in with us"

Why the fuck do you care about that as town?

Why don't you want to comment on his case on me? that's probably way more worth it to talk about right?

I have in our PT. A lot of your posts aren’t making a lot of sense to me, which is why I’m hoping that you, moment and everyone who hasn’t, post in their PTs. That’s what they’re supposed to be there for, so that the pairs can evaluate each other.

Based on soley on what I’ve been seeing in the main thread, Brie is way townier than you, here.

[Something_Smart]

STAHP BREAKING THE SITE D:

[DoubtingThomas]

so you don't have questions for me prepared? Even though you had a very long case on me/scum reading me to an extent but not 100% sold on me being scum and wants to see my flip?

Yeah, I wanted to see your flip because I kinda reached the point that I wasn't sure I could sort you by asking questions.

Like, if it's not you first, then I would say I want to lynch PB for this progression on you:

Spoiler:

So my final suggestion is:
PvtUrist/Gamma
Moment/TheBrie
DoubtingThomas/SS
Allonely, I'm so lonely (8)

I support PinkBall's suggestions for pairings. It'll be interesting what input the people actually involved provide however particularly because I think there's likely some scum in there.

So my final suggestion is:
PvtUrist/Gamma
Moment/TheBrie
DoubtingThomas/SS
Allonely, I'm so lonely (8)

not bad

saying people are okay with pairing you with SS is basically saying they're okay with lynching you with dance 1 at this point, in case the subtext here isn't clear

I mean I kinda poe'd you as scum but I have never really seen anything that makes me think there's a smoking gun, I just haven't seen a lot of sorting from you. So if you think Pvt or Moment should be with SS instead of you, you need to kind of say why

Not true. I'm not scumreading either of them

mostly because I have a hard time comprehending why PB would put you at the bottom of his list next to Allo and then backpedal to saying he was "not scumreading" you.

I'm still not sure that's a stronger case than the one on you, and I'm still not sure I buy your "that's not my meta" rebuttal. I'm not a player that really thrives on lots of jerky interactions with someone who hasn't read the thread. Why would your reads right now be alignment indicative or make me feel better about you when you are only responding to what people say in real time based on things you don't have context for?

So yeah, if you're re-evaluating your PB read, I'd like to hear it... but it doesn't help me at all for you to say "well I'm not caught up and I'm not going to get caught up"... that makes your slot basically unreadable because it is unable to separate dumbtells from actual sorting. And I feel like you are capable of more cohesive processing as town.

Like, you seeming slightly more townie is something that makes me think, "Oh, maybe I should go reread PB again," not "oh I should spam 50 questions to someone who hasn't read the thread"

if you want to interact with me, you are more than welcome but if you are just locked into pushing my lynch then... okay

what is your case on me disregarding a meta reason?

[Nancy Drew 39]

also i tried to make my pairing with brie happen, i just was busy and couldn't be on thread as much as i should have to play the game properly. sorry about that but i did go for brie pairing. she just accepted moment's especially after S_S wanted to wait and let moment choose. i think that act is kinda scummy in itself and not understanding why she is not getting more heat

also i hard defended myself because i town read SS and not scum read SS. that is not hard to understand. I think there are definite scum in Gamma or Brie. Maybe in PB, Nancy, etc if I look more into it. what are you curious about?

wait vedith and firebringer died?

They sure did, Vedith did in fact leave the dance. They are both flipped town.

It's NAI that I missed that fact. what are you trying to consider?

why did vedith leave the dance?

He was convinced on Fire scum.

[Krazy]

if you want to interact with me, you are more than welcome but if you are just locked into pushing my lynch then... okay

what is your case on me disregarding a meta reason?

I didn't like your reaction to RC's death, and I didn't like you exclusively focusing on my meta case and ignoring the fact that I didn't like your reaction to RC's death.

I don't like that you prioritized avoiding being lynched over refining your read of S_S in your response to my meta case, I didn't like that you seemed disinterested in sorting S_S prior to coming into the thread and defending yourself, I don't like that you come in and spam posts without reading back in the game first (even if that's a playstyle thing), and I didn't like the feeling you were trying to get me to direct your pairing in dance 1, when if you are town your own pairing would likely be your top concern.

There's a lot about your play this game, independent of meta, I don't like. But I also frankly think this game does loosely fit into your scum meta. However, as I have acknowledged, some of these could plausibly be playstyle conflicts. There's just a lot about your slot I would prefer to stop second-guessing myself on.

The strongest argument in your favor right now is that you were unaware that Vedith/FB flipped, but as you yourself have explained that is NAI.

That being said, it's not like your pairing is S/S. Maybe there is an argument to be made in favor of PB going first instead.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I mean, I've already said Thomas was nulltown. I'm trusting RC on Dann and Brie, so if I were to drop anyone it'd be Gamma... but any read on Gamma will get drowned out by IC WIFOM.

Not really... Gamma isn't getting lynched first for sure. That doesn't mean we don't need to make a choice about her literally in the next 5 days.

why not?

Because Urist is IC.

Speaking of @Urist, what is your current read on Gamma?