Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[Nancy Drew 39]

OK, would you like Taly IC'd? This would be the most informative for me, since that effectively solves the game from my point of view.

@Nancy, didn't pedit for Dann sorry

I just hammered on two town, so I don’t want to lose us the game.

I think Dann not ICing me was townie because he immediately ICing me, would be scummy.

There is no reason to rush this and I don’t think there should be any IC.

Taly is still my strongest townread, yes.

But we have sometime. I hammered m-tb, to give us that time.

[Krazy]

Let's see.

Most recent scum game on my Jenga alt: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78234

Day 1 of a town game on my main: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

But the more relevant games will be on the alt I've been slow-rolling, but I guess this would be the time to out it since it's on Nancy's mind.

DVa is probably the more relevant alt for evaluating my play, and I planned to out it at the end of this game anyway. I believe Dann at this point is the only living player unaware I am DVa.

Excalibur (town): https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Witches Ball (basically this setup, town): https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Most recent scumgame as DVa (only -d posts, hydra with Auro who did most of the weightlifting): https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Probably my most tryhard scumgame, coalition: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

[Nancy Drew 39]

P.edit. I was thinking either the game would end with the hammer but I knew that prolonging the inevitable, was pointless because I was never going to be able to resolve the dichotomy between what my gut was saying and how it made absolutely no sense for Brie not to be DT’s partner.

I’m stll in somewhat of a shock because I still don’t understand how this game not ending makes any sense.

[Krazy]

So I don't want to make it seem like I have trust tells. I can present the games and simply argue, this game is outside my scum range. That demeans my scum-range, and you might not believe it. Theoretically, I'm not the one that should be making this argument. But that's why I include coalition, which is the game people would usually point to and say, "but actually maybe this is kinda like how you play as scum." I am showcasing my strongest scum games and saying--look at them, please. If you look at my average scum games, my general preference is to lurk. Actually there's another schadd game I should even bring up here.

Another example of my scum play on my main: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

This is not my scum play. I know I am town, and if you are doing an argument from meta, then I believe after evaluating my play in other games, you should probably conclude I am town.

Now, we are dealing with a situation where someone is playing a very strong scum game. My inclination at this point is to think that player is Dann. But I don't know that, which is why I would prefer to get an IC so that my solving process is focused on two players. This is how me and Chibi did it in Witches Ball, it worked there. If I seem kind of less tilted here than the rest of you, it's probably because I was in the 4-way mylo the last time this setup was run so "sudden twist, the person in the mountainous I thought was scum flipped town" doesn't phase me that badly I guess.

At this point, I look at the setup and I say, okay, the first thing I do is decide who I would be most okay with losing the game to, and then I IC that person. I wouldn't mind losing to Nancy, which is why I volunteered her to be the IC. Nancy has argued convincingly that she would have caught Taly by now, so I am not strongly opposed to Taly being IC'd. Frankly, I could be wrong on any of the three of you, and I just accept that. If I lose this game to someone who has dramatically expanded their scum range, then GG. Dann is the one who has been most suspected by other players, and who I myself have second guessed the most posts of, but every player has at some point been case or discussed as possible scum at this point. If it's Nancy, then Firebringer gets to pat himself on the back I guess. If it's Taly, Pvt is laughing in the grave. If it's Dann, then PB probably has some mixed feelings.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think prematurely ICing anyone, could lose us the game. Once we have all reassessed the game, done metachecks etc. God, knows I need to since I still don’t understand where I went wrong.

I honestly wasn’t expecting that lynch to be so quick and if even one other person had either backed me on moment weighing in, or further discussion, I absolutely would have waited but you were all locked in and probably moment wasn’t going to add anything more to what he’s already said anyway, and it was obvious that no more discussion was happening in the game pre-flip.

And I knew I was never going to come to a decision and with the clock ticking, I just couldn’t see the wisdom of delaying my vote and risk time running out, if I was wrong but more than that, I thought the game would just end.

[Nancy Drew 39]

So I don't want to make it seem like I have trust tells. I can present the games and simply argue, this game is outside my scum range. That demeans my scum-range, and you might not believe it. Theoretically, I'm not the one that should be making this argument. But that's why I include coalition, which is the game people would usually point to and say, "but actually maybe this is kinda like how you play as scum." I am showcasing my strongest scum games and saying--look at them, please. If you look at my average scum games, my general preference is to lurk. Actually there's another schadd game I should even bring up here.

Another example of my scum play on my main: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

This is not my scum play. I know I am town, and if you are doing an argument from meta, then I believe after evaluating my play in other games, you should probably conclude I am town.

Now, we are dealing with a situation where someone is playing a very strong scum game. My inclination at this point is to think that player is Dann. But I don't know that, which is why I would prefer to get an IC so that my solving process is focused on two players. This is how me and Chibi did it in Witches Ball, it worked there. If I seem kind of less tilted here than the rest of you, it's probably because I was in the 4-way mylo the last time this setup was run so "sudden twist, the person in the mountainous I thought was scum flipped town" doesn't phase me that badly I guess.

At this point, I look at the setup and I say, okay, the first thing I do is decide who I would be most okay with losing the game to, and then I IC that person. I wouldn't mind losing to Nancy, which is why I volunteered her to be the IC. Nancy has argued convincingly that she would have caught Taly by now, so I am not strongly opposed to Taly being IC'd. Frankly, I could be wrong on any of the three of you, and I just accept that. If I lose this game to someone who has dramatically expanded their scum range, then GG. Dann is the one who has been most suspected by other players, and who I myself have second guessed the most posts of, but every player has at some point been case or discussed as possible scum at this point. If it's Nancy, then Firebringer gets to pat himself on the back I guess. If it's Taly, Pvt is laughing in the grave. If it's Dann, then PB probably has some mixed feelings.

And if it’s you, well then moment is taking a victory lap in dead chat.

[Krazy]

Yes, ICing someone can certainly lose us the game. But we would be losing the game quickly, based on who we believe is already town and who would win anyway, rather than losing the game slowly, in a manner that would be more tilting. At this point, I know I'm never going to be totally sure on which is the correct answer, because scum has played too well. So I would prefer to save myself 1/3rd of the effort, frankly.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes, ICing someone can certainly lose us the game. But we would be losing the game quickly, based on who we believe is already town and who would win anyway, rather than losing the game slowly, in a manner that would be more tilting. At this point, I know I'm never going to be totally sure on which is the correct answer, because scum has played too well. So I would prefer to save myself 1/3rd of the effort, frankly.

That last vote really took a toll on me and if it weren’t for an approximately 3 day deadline, I wouldn’t have hammered, because I frequently get fresh new insights once I sleep on it. I think this setup is inherently scumsided because the coin mechanic, made no lynching the safest choice, which pushed us immediately into 2nd dance.

I think next go round, FG should abandon the whole coin thing because it’s just makes it too much of a pressure cooker.

[Krazy]

Yes, I also hate the coins, although it's probably supposed to be related to the post-intermission IC pairing. Beyond that, our early game was damaged by Firebringer making it impossible to make the high coin male a consensus townread, which dramatically increased the incentive to simply skip first dance. Some of the issues here were caused by town play, some of the issues were caused by setup. It's a fast paced setup no matter what though.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes, I also hate the coins, although it's probably supposed to be related to the post-intermission IC pairing. Beyond that, our early game was damaged by Firebringer making it impossible to make the high coin male a consensus townread, which dramatically increased the incentive to simply skip first dance. Some of the issues here were caused by town play, some of the issues were caused by setup. It's a fast paced setup no matter what though.

At least there weren’t 5 replace outs, back to back.

[Krazy]

Thought about it and I'm still ready to IC Nancy.

It's between Taly and Dan and it might actually maybe be Taly?

There's a few different factors here for me. The main thing is that I feel like Gamma came into post-intermission with high motivation, and I just have a really hard time imagining Gamma feeling good about this game if the scum team was exactly Gamma-Nancy-DT, since Nancy/DT have like an ongoing personality conflict. Additionally, I kinda felt like both Nancy and Gamma were trying to become partnered with me, and I find it really hard to see that coming from S/S.

Beyond that I just would be more shocked and impressed with Nancy scum.

There are some things to think about here:
-Did Nancy keep her cool too well for DT joking about her?
-Did Nancy keep her cool too well for Gamma saying she has an "authority complex" as town?
-Was Nancy threatening to replace out possibly related to being partnered with DT?

The other issue I'm seeing going back through isos is that Taly's interactions with both DT and Gamma seem kinda blah.

There's like one post in particular from Gamma that almost makes me townread Dann on its own.

Bottom line here is that I'm pretty sure Nancy never flips scum here. If the answer to the three questions above are all "no" then we should do a hammer test because if Nancy is the scum I think we just lose. I feel like Nancy mostly did "normal Nancy" reactions to those phenomena.

Kinda where I'm at right now.

That being said I'm curious about Dann's reluctance to IC Nancy and Nancy's lack of enthusiasm for being IC'd. Dann, if there's something in your PT that bothers you, you should probably say so.

[Krazy]

Taly is bleeding town

taly i am at the point where i can sheep you shamelessly


who should i pair up with

and who are your scum reads

Obviously there's ways to second-guess this.

Not in love with this as W/W

[Krazy]

Hi I see that I have 3 votes on me rn, could we not before I can present my case and stuff? I've found all the quotes I need so it'll probably be done in 18 hours tops.

Also let's give Pvt a chance to give some reads before we send him off? I don't really feel bothered by being voted but I feel like no one realizes the impact of removing the IC before they've had a chance to give reads

I have such a strong feeling that

Gamma is Grima Wormtongue whispering into the ear of our King IC PvTheoden

I'M WHO????

This is the post that bothers me for scum Dann, I feel like Gamma does these weird over-exaggerated reactions much more to town than in S/S

[Nancy Drew 39]

Thought about it and I'm still ready to IC Nancy.

It's between Taly and Dan and it might actually maybe be Taly?

There's a few different factors here for me. The main thing is that I feel like Gamma came into post-intermission with high motivation, and I just have a really hard time imagining Gamma feeling good about this game if the scum team was exactly Gamma-Nancy-DT, since Nancy/DT have like an ongoing personality conflict. Additionally, I kinda felt like both Nancy and Gamma were trying to become partnered with me, and I find it really hard to see that coming from S/S.

Beyond that I just would be more shocked and impressed with Nancy scum.

There are some things to think about here:
-Did Nancy keep her cool too well for DT joking about her?
-Did Nancy keep her cool too well for Gamma saying she has an "authority complex" as town?
-Was Nancy threatening to replace out possibly related to being partnered with DT?

The other issue I'm seeing going back through isos is that Taly's interactions with both DT and Gamma seem kinda blah.

There's like one post in particular from Gamma that almost makes me townread Dann on its own.[youtube][/youtube]

Bottom line here is that I'm pretty sure Nancy never flips scum here. If the answer to the three questions above are all "no" then we should do a hammer test because if Nancy is the scum I think we just lose. I feel like Nancy mostly did "normal Nancy" reactions to those phenomena.

Kinda where I'm at right now.

That being said I'm curious about Dann's reluctance to IC Nancy and Nancy's lack of enthusiasm for being IC'd. Dann, if there's something in your PT that bothers you, you should probably say so.

I’m not reluctant to be IC, I just don’t think anyone is an IC. If you want me as your top town, then I’m good with that.

Spoiler:

[Krazy]

Okay, I don't think I'm getting to the point where I present a final solve yet. Making my way through Nancy page 1.

Obviously Nancy has a lot of content before DT even enters the game, and on rereading it's really interesting that her threat to leave the dance *occurs before DT basically does anything* so I'm kinda not thinking we can say it was ragetilt over a pair she doesn't like; actually it was because she thought there was an unfair case somewhere in Dann/Taly, particularly in regard to a strange misunderstanding from Taly that surprises me on a reread.

Yes, Vedith seems too eager and isn’t trying to sort the ladies.

My main concern is making it to the dance.

I do recall Vedith being similar in the last one we were in together and he was town

God help us in that case.

First interaction of Nancy--> Gamma. There's a lot of pretty NAI interactions of Nancy-->Gamma and I guess I should reread where Gamma comment son the authority complex thing, I think that was page 2.

Ok so Firebringer, Nancy, Krazy and Gamma are all town. Alisae and Taly are close to town. I have my doubts about Dannflor and Allomancer is nothing like the obvtown I got last game.

I need more gents' townreads.

I’m mindmelding with most of your reads here, especially Fire and Gamma. I feel pretty good about Alisae and Taly as well. I think I can sort Krazy, so I’m hoping he asks me.

Nancy can you expand on why you were arguing for Gamma town in early predance?

Okay, so apparently I’m scum for not automatically being convinced Allo’s scum here, got it.,

No. That's not at all why I scum read you.

Okay, why then because I’m not seeing it.

Hate to go back to such early pre-dance but it's worth thinking about why Dann was scumreading Nancy at this point (in regard to the merits of each slot)

I think Taly tries harder to obvtown as scum in this situation

I don't think it's likely he's scum here

Taly seems nothing here, like he was in Labrynth.

why are you asserting a meta scumread on me when you havent really repsonded to my latest explanation to you? about my

allo

scumread and your other reads

also, i dont get

pink balls

consistent mindmeld with you here

I’m not, the exact opposite in fact. I’m saying I think you’re town in this game. Are PB and Alisae the only ones correctly reading my posts here?

This is the thing I mentioned earlier -- why did Taly think that Nancy was scumreading her by saying she's "nothing like she was in labyrinth"? This is such a strange thing to misunderstand

yeah your read doesnt seem justified at all

I think you’re probably freaking town here, because you sound NOTHING like you did in Labrynth -

where you were SCUM

. God!

I still think it's a bit odd to get so hung up on the connection to Labyrinth, given that was an unusual scum game, and also Taly actually did not have that much presence in the thread (afaik?). Then again maybe that's why it seems so different?

thing about my meta.

I've played a game with you and I've read a game with you in it. You have a very distinctive style

Allomancer, do you still scum read Vedith, and if so would you share reasoning?

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE FREAKING EXPLAIN THIS To Me ALREADY BECAUSE MY HEAD Is HURTING.

What was going on here again?

@mod please replace me.

This is like MBoS all over agian and I’m not fucking putting myself through that. Sorry.

Nancy
Ank (it’s not within her scumrange to be hurtful to me as scum)
Alisae
RC
Gamma
Taly
Vedith
Pink Ball
Krazy

———————————

Dann

——————————

Fire
Worm
Dann
Allo


I’m sure I’m missing some people.

This is just interesting. DT is the only name missing from the list right? Which makes sense, since DT had not posted yet. Does Nancy as scum omit DT from her first list that includes basically everyone else? I wanna say probably not? But I'd like to hear from Dann and Taly on their interpretations of this list.

hello nancy WILL YOU DANCE WITH ME

Uh, after that MU lovers’ game, I still have bad memories.

Why am I your first choice here?

I'm more including this here to indicate that 1038, toward the bottom of page 1 of Nancy's iso, is where DT finally enters the thread. If we can eliminate these interactions as W/W, which is my current theory, then we should proceed with ICing Nancy.

[Krazy]

I just don’t think anyone is an IC.

Just to be clear, what I'm saying is that some point we do a hammer test. I.e., Dann would vote me, I would vote me, and then you would make a post without a hammer. Since we are friends, I would hope at that point that if you were scum you would hammer rather than drag out the game. If you are town, at that point Dann knows you're not scum (from his point of view), so he keeps his vote on me+Taly, and then I would unvote for further discussion. That's what I mean by "making someone an IC."

[Krazy]

I don't want to overwhelm the thread, I know there's still Big Mood over being in 4-way mylo and there's already an immense amount of content to process.

I think I'll hold off from diving further into Nancy's iso tonight, and wait for Taly and Dann to discuss the potential of ICing Nancy based on what has been said so far.

[Dannflor]

Bottom line here is that I'm pretty sure Nancy never flips scum here. If the answer to the three questions above are all "no" then we should do a hammer test because if Nancy is the scum I think we just lose. I feel like Nancy mostly did "normal Nancy" reactions to those phenomena.

I'm in the middle of writing a big wall post and the first half is dedicated to this.

I was hesitant because I had lingering doubts about Nancy and I didn't want to be too hasty in case I found something against her. Bottom line, I've gone back through everything quite a few times now and I highly doubt Nancy ever flips red. I'm okay with her being our "IC." I'm confident enough in this I'd be fine banking the game on it and doing a hammer test.

However, I'm at a cross roads in writing my post right now and you're latest posts are making me second guess myself. I assumed if you were scum you would turn the end game into a 1v1 with me, because that would be your best shot at winning and kinda seems like something you've been prepping for all game. But the fact that you haven't done so gives me pause. You're seriously considering Taly as the potential wolf and I'm not sure scum!you does that when Nancy basically just gave you a free out by saying her top town read is Taly.

Of course, since I was thinking you might be the wolf, your play this game (if scum) is certainly capable of doing this too. But, it's still enough to give me pause. And it actually makes me think of a post I really need to talk to Taly about before I go any further.

Krazy[//b], why should I stay in the dance?

I need to ask this question.

Taly, what answer were you expecting here?

In fact, why did you ask it at all? Krazy's response isn't particularly strong or unique, and there's no follow up to it. Why did you need to ask it?

[Dannflor]

Town Cases ~ Part 1: Why is Nancy

Town

?

I've been up and down Nancy's ISO. I've read and reread our PT together at least a few times now. There is not a universe where you could convince me Nancy is scum.

To begin with, there have been a couple times when Nancy has gotten emotional during conflicts with another player that demonstrate her alignment.

EXHIBIT A: FIREBRANGER

If you don't remember, Nancy had a conflict early in the game that resulted in her nearly replacing out. Largely, it was a conflict that sparked between her and Firebringer.

It started in post #294.

allomancer is scum this game btw

Why?

nancy don't make me suspect u this early

Why? Because I want to know why you think Allo is scum?

It continues and reaches a climax in posts #561 and #564. Phrases of interest bolded for clarity:

I don’t know if I even want to get picked anymore. I feel like I’m being scumreading without any basis and every single attempt I’ve made to ge clarity on this, seems to get viewed as some kind of scumclaim. I’m seriously contemplating replacing out at this point and they can toture my replacement instead. :/

I think you should stay and we should probably PT together like a pair of masons! \o/

It’s better for town, that I just bow out now anyway and if no one picks me

, then I won’t need to be replaced. I honestly don’t know what else to do at this point. I just know, I’m not having fun anymore

@mod please replace me.

This is like MBoS all over agian and I’m not fucking putting myself through that. Sorry.

First of all, to state that it might be better for town if no one picks them is an

incredibly dangerous

claim for scum to make, because there's the very real chance town will take them up on the offer—especially so at a time when the slot is so widely pressured/scum read. The fact of the matter is, it's not a desperate grab for town cred. If you consider that emotion to be faked, you also have to consider that the replacement wasn't genuine, and to replace out of a game for town cred is not something I believe Nancy would ever do.

EXHIBIT B: DOUBTINGTOXIC

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

Lolwut?

You were town in that game and it was blatantly obvious, soley based on what you posted in our DC.

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

Lolwut?

You were town in that game and it was blatantly obvious, soley based on what you posted in our DC.

wtf? why are you lying you literally cussed me out in discord lover PT for thinking you could be scum

you said "you are just scum at this point for not obv town reading me" then you got banned for angleshooting (lol)

don't pretend you correctly town read me. you literally subbed out cuz u thought i was a scum for not reading you town

which was kinda insane

I obtown read you and yes, thanks for reminding me of something I’d really rather forget. I was trying to do whatever I could think of to get you to see that I was town, so we wouldn’t lose the game with our mislynch.
I knew I had majorly fucked up by wrongly pushing El pair mislynch and you promised to lynch us if they flipped town, so yes I really was that desperate for you not to lose us the game because you totally sucked at reading me. Happy now.?

Yeah, and I paid the price for it, as you’ve already said.

Gamma, interesting. What connection do you see between Moment and I and DT then?

Also it's time to get this moving along.
VOTE: Doubting Thomas

L-1

DT was consistently pushing both me and TB but voted me for most of that period and was up my ass. That tells me the TB push was likely distancing.
Also VOTE: TheBrie again

I’m just really glad he’s out of the game.

He was being toxic and him throwing that game in my face like that, was really mean.

Spoiler:

My argument was that you should have had reads three days ago and that town is on the clock. I think I made exactly one post about it. Stop acting like I was talking up a storm about your post activity, that was simply me refuting the notion that there wasn't enough to work with irt your slot to get a read.

i town read SS and not scum read SS. that is not hard to understand. I think there are definite scum in Gamma or Brie. Maybe in PB, Nancy, etc if I look more into it.

As far as I know this is your reads right now. We have 5 days to solve the game. Who gets lynched today DT? Why are you continuing to bitch about me not spoonfeeding you interactions when you are presenting 0 indications of a solving mindset? Do you want Brie lynched today? Do you want Gamma to go first? Why in that order?

I have read your games and you are not this directionless as town. I feel like you just want to throw dirt at whoever is online and posting rather than working toward a gamesolve.

I thought I made my reads on other players to a certain degree so I am confused as to why you are trying to shade me this hard.

I think Gamma is obv scum but didn't realize she is partners with IC. Thinking maybe we can let them live technically just because we know for sure her partner is town and you made a fair point about gamma 'spewing'

I think Worm/PB are pretty null.

I think Brie's "reads" have been very subpar. I explained this before but you haven't read my posts properly so I will say it again

These are all of her "reads" that she made today:

Leaning towards scum on Moment, but he's not giving me anything to read. Conflicted on Pink Ball.

I went and did meta on Gamma. Her game is quite similar as town and scum, as town she's got more questions that force others to get involved and are really challenging, as a little less "Explain this" and sort of mechanical stuff, or comments on how people are playing. But it's close, and I can't tell which side this falls on. Maybe a tiny bit towards the scum side, but not enough to say anything solid. It's not outside her town range.

There's a few things that give me a scummy feel, but overall... I've not gotten her sorted out. i just know I'm not putting her solidly in as town.

In summary, she basically just says, "I lean scum. but he doesn't have any content to base my read on him. Idk Pink ball. I did meta on Gamma. I can't tell if she's town or scum. maybe a little scum. Don't have anything solid.

This is definition of hedging and she is refusing to take a stance. I think that is an overtly scum trait.

I also don't buy her explanation of insta accepting moment's invitation, as S_S pointed out

Mostly because I was afraid life would hardly let me on before the deadline. i had a couple days of full on work (waking up at three am), and I didn't know then how tired I would be the rest of the time. Bad reason.
Also, I wasn't really townreading SS then, and didn't really want her with Moment.

i don't really see scum!Moment asking scum!SS when he had a reasonable chance of town!me accepting. So currently townreading SS. Not townreading Moment, but I want to see him post again before making a final judgement.

I think this is >rand scum thing to do.

I also think Nancy constantly talking about my lover PT is >rand scum. I cannot understand why she thinks that would be NAI and scum read me for it. sounds scummy.

I think Worm's tone is townie, but I am confused as to why he completely ignored you and my interaction to talk about me at all in the last 10 pages that I read

I think Gamma has done very little solving and noone really town reads her. I think the way she got mad and attacked me out of nowehre is extremely scummy because she was blatantly lying about my progression on her. I think she can go, but I can accept why people wouldn't want to lynch her because she is lovers with an IC.

In that sense, I think Brie also has very high scum equity especially with her performance today. I haven't read Moment at all. hopefully he comes back soon. maybe ill iso him eventually.

I think nancy has good scum equity as well for oddly attacking me for not talking in lovers PT when i simply havent been on. I also think it was weird for her to give a reason for twon reading dann by using a post itt despite having lovers PT she so loves to talk about with him. i think dann is kinda townie for his posts tho and i initially town read nancy, so i personally prefer brie's lynch who i scum read harder and have no opinion on the lover for

i made all of this pretty clear in my recent posts so don't give me the "i dont see any reads from you" shit. read my shit.

i think you are just conf biasing and not reading my posts to tunnel me. i think you cussing me out is unnecessary and just provoking me really hard. believe me i can get real toxic real fast.

i don't want to go down that path so if you unnecessarily cuss me out again i will just ignore your presence and play the game around so i can at least leave a good legacy if you are just gonna deathtunnel me. i do think you are somewhat townie (despite S_S believing otherwise) and I think Taly is very townie so I don't want to get involved in a useless mess with you.

good luck with the rest of the game if you have anything intelligent to say that you want to approach me in a mature way to talk about, i'd be glad to talk. otherwise, i think you are just stuck in a tunnel and will play the game around you

So, in this post DT does say both Brie and Gamma are scum. The difference is he actually cases Brie here and I bolded a part towards the top where he says Gamma can actually be left alive. So I'd actually say he was pushing Brie more than you, Gamma.

Also good to note, right below the bolded portion, he has PB/Dr Worm as null. That, imo combined with his interactions with PB later make more sense as soft distancing.

I have experience with scum!DT and he is really clever. He fooled me in MU Suk game, so it’s extremely likey that he was deliberately trying to get himself lynched to save at least one of his buddies.

I think his shitting on me for pushing him posting in his PT, was just WIFOM to make everyone think he was afraid of it but I think it’s well within his scumrange to have fooled SS, if he had really wanted to. He was open wolfing here and he obviously knew it.

Nancy and DT have lowkey clashed all game, but this was the peak of it, occurring from posts #4825 to #5060. If you believe Nancy is scum, then you must also believe all the Nancy/DT interactions this game are scum theatre. Again, I read Nancy as completely genuine here. I think if Nancy and DT really had been scum buddies here, Nancy would have replaced out a long long time ago. I don't think that's a stretch to assert.

There are other things that point towards Nancy being town too. Namely, the choice of IC. Selecting PvtUrist as the IC directs more suspicion towards me. If we are entertaining the fact that Nancy could be the deepwolf, her game plan requires that she survive till endgame. ICing Pvt puts the odds against her by splashing suspicion on me. If I'm the most suspicious person going into endgame, it's not likely Nancy will win it. Scum in this setup, particularly a deep wolf in this situation, has to play to survive until endgame. This means they have to avoid the deaths of both themselves and their partner.

Another point in Nancy's favor is that she initially pushed to have Krazy as her lover. This is a good because Krazy at no point was "universally town read," with RC being a far better candidate. I think if Nancy was scum, she would have pushed harder to be in a pair with RC.

In the end, if Nancy is scum here, she deserves to win a fucking Oscar.

[Dannflor]

just went ahead and cut and pasted the part of my post dealing with Nancy since it seems relevant ^^^

[Dannflor]

I will also supply my meta games for Taly.

[

Mini Normal 2050: Serial Killers

]

-

Dec. 15, 2018.

My first game on the site after a ~5 year hiatus. Was the primary driver behind a scum lynch D1, had the scum team solved before the day ended. Was killed N1, but town still perfect gamed.

[

Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell

]

-

Replaced in Dec. 28, 2018.

Obv towned in a lynch bait slot, prevented a mislynch on mbaki, had one scum in my PoE. Was NKed after my second day in the game. Town still won. (never did a colored reads list in this game, since Krazy was insinuating that might be a tell for me earlier)

[

Mini Normal 2054: Winter's Sacrifice

]

-

Jan. 17, 2019.

Helped lead a wagon on scum D1. Correctly guessed another scum D2 via associations and lead a wagon on them. Correctly guessed the final scum for my investigation target N2. Town perfect gamed.

I'm not usually a braggart, I just think it's important to know that my town game is generally strong.

[

Mini 1402: Low Budget Mafia

]

-

Dec. 12, 2012.

My only completed "real" scum game on site. Was a Mafia Traitor who didn't know who his team was. I was lynched D3, but my scum team end gamed anyway.

[

Half Mast Nightless - Marathon

]

-

Feb. 14, 2019.

It's a marathon game, so take that with a grain of salt. However, there are 60+ pages worth of content. I survived till end game and won.

As you can see, using meta to case me is rather problematic. Neither of my scum games are truly representative of what my scum game could be here because one is from 7 years ago and one is a marathon game. I provided them anyway, but they can't really be used as evidence that I'm town. Unfortunately, Krazy's meta with me that causes his paranoia would break site-wide rules to talk about. Suffice to say my scum game is much different from either 7 years ago or from when I play marathons. I don't tend to think meta is a very reliable tool, but use these how you will.

[Dannflor]

I'm okay to do this hammer test. I'm already basically thinking and sorting as if Nancy is town now, but if it helps whichever one of you (Taly/Krazy) that's town sort, than let's do it.

VOTE: Krazy

We can do it or wait for Taly/Nancy to weigh in idc

[Dannflor]

And that's probably all from me tonight. I don't wanna clog up the thread anymore than I just did.

good night folks

[Krazy]

Nancy are you on?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Seriously @Krazy, have you possibly considered that not everyone is down with an IC theory?

Dann isn’t reluctant to IC me, he’s just cautious and fhpov, don’t you think that looks really townie?

Like, have you forgotten, you’re voting in pairs?

If Dann immediately jumped on board with, sure I’ll IC Nancy, it would have pinged my scumdar off the charts for obvious reasons and I would like to think he’d have the exact same reaction to my doing that as well.

Similarly, I’d also be extremely suspicious of either you or Taly ICing each other. Do you see where I’m going with this?

Of course I know I’m town here, that isn’t even the point. If we were not playing in pairs, it would be entirely different but I want to solve this and you’re ignoring the pair component of this. I’m not looking to be IC’d here, I want to find out whivhever pair contains the deep wolf and lynch them. All I know for sure is it’s not me but I can’t obviously be locked on anyone else but what I can do, is look at how seriously they’re taking this game and the towniness of their motivation.

So, Dann not wanting to rush this, is pro-town in my eyes because why couldn’t scum!him just say, sure I’ll be more than happy to IC Nancy?

The fact that you find this even remotely concerning kind of worries me. I alsmost wonder if this whole IC gambit is a trap for either me or Dann?

Like, is it entirely out of your scumrange to set either of us up?

Even now you say on one hand you suspect Taly and on the other, you find it concerning that neither Dann or me is “enthusiastic” as you call it to IC me. Why aren’t you trying harder to sort me, like Dann is?

I am trying to find the deep wolf from amongst you, Dann and Taly, right?

You’re expecting me to assume your town with a pro-town motivation for doing this but I don’t know that, do I?


Can you understand why I’m feeling kind of paranoid about this?