Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[Taly]

Final note before I sleep

I think people underestimate how deep of a mind/social game Mafia can be.

It's literally one of those games people can play while putting down their societal barriers on how they communicate with someone.

It brings people back to a raw mentality of how to socialize, how to interpret people, and how to solve problems among a group of people who share a mutual interest or are trying to deter that mutual interest from accomplishing anything.

That's why emotional outbursts can happen from most people regardless of alignment, and why actions by themselves in mafia are NAI a lot of the time.

It's a game of people who are pitted against each other and at the same time, trying to work with each other. It's built to create conflict alongside the excitement.

[Dunnstral]

Can the information from the first run be revealed?

[Dunnstral]

nvm, I see it

[TheBrie]

Good game. First time I've been mislynched. By the time it got to that, I was pretty sure Moment and I were both town, but I really didn't know what to do about it, or care enough to fight. I'd already accepted that I wasn't going to endgame.

I never would have guessed DT was The Worst. Looking back I can see the similarities, but the thought had never crossed my mind. I'd probably have accepted (if he'd asked me properly), if I had known. We probably would have been lynched earlier than DT/SS were.

DT/Duck, did you ever actually plan to be partnered with me?

[Ankamius]

DT is duckling?

[TheBrie]

Wiat, maybe I misread that. I dunno anymore. I thought someone said he was, but now I'm confused.

[Gamma Emerald]

I asked about it lol

[Pink Ball]

He's not. Ank said "how dare you rolling scum with me duck" referring to the first iteration of this game, not this one. The worst was spectating the game, he couldn't be playing it at the same time

[TheBrie]

Thanks for unconfusing me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What even is this

Nancy is angry because she believes that I should have asked her for an explanation in private, and not damage her public image like I did through a public inquiry. In addition, she believes that DT should not have told everyone that she has been banned for similar behavior before, and I shouldn't have approved him afterwards.

I think her argument makes sense. She doesn't want people to know that she is a repeat offender, and she doesn't want her public image to suffer from this. I am of belief that you should always meet your mistakes head on, but I understand her position. Therefore, I apologized.

One instance ANYWHERE doesn’t make anyone a “repeat offender”.

Welp, if you INTENTIONALLY burn down a house and you regret it after the fact, the insurance company won’t go easy on you.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What even is this

Nancy is angry because she believes that I should have asked her for an explanation in private, and not damage her public image like I did through a public inquiry. In addition, she believes that DT should not have told everyone that she has been banned for similar behavior before, and I shouldn't have approved him afterwards.

I think her argument makes sense. She doesn't want people to know that she is a repeat offender, and she doesn't want her public image to suffer from this. I am of belief that you should always meet your mistakes head on, but I understand her position. Therefore, I apologized.

One instance ANYWHERE doesn’t make anyone a “repeat offender”.

Welp, if you INTENTIONALLY burn down a house and you regret it after the fact, the insurance company won’t go easy on you.

I am also upset that you just didn’t replace me att and instead lulled me into a false sense of security. So, mistakenly thinking you were acting in good faith, I worked really really hard, put my heart and soul into this game and did my best to carry my team to victory.

All the while of course, being blissfullly ignorant that you were trashing me in dead thread, which I had no access to, so could not defend myself and that you planned to blindside me post-game. Also, no need to drag DT into this. He is the only one other than me, who actually knows the MAJORITY/

NOT EVEN ALL

of the facts, YOU don’t! It is not even remotely as black and white as you’re incorrectly assuming it is but I get that you’re far more interested in passing judgment than getting all of the facts first. Why let the truth get in the way of this Spanish Inquisition, amirite?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't actually think it's beneficent to continue that squabble, but if you don't want replace outs to be used as a form of emotional manipulation,

why did you not insist she leave the game in pre-dance when she bolded the request? I feel like you're blaming her for coming back into the game when she had tilt replaced out. I don't think tilt replace outs can be prohibited since all that would do is make people lie more about why they're replacing out, mostly what this shows is that replace outs should simply be seen as NAI. And saying you're blacklisting her because she won a game using a form of emotional manipulation that you enabled by allowing her to remain in the game after the replacement request is confusing to me.

Like, we can all agree that there should be fewer replacement requests, that there should not be tactical replacements, that people should keep their cool more and not tiltreplace out.

But as someone who looked at the replacement request and did not townread her for it but thought she was town for other, also incorrect reasons, this seems like you're blaming the scum winner for winning because some of the town townread her for shitty reasons.

I guess if you want a consistent policy on replace outs, say that A) Replacement request should be made by PM, not made in thread, B) Replacement requests are final and C) Players should stop posting as soon as they initiate a replacement request. Generally, the rules are in place right now because sometimes people get heated and say they want to replace out but then change their minds. Which--as far as I can tell--is exactly what happened this game. She did not threaten to replace out as a form of gaining towncred; she intended to replace out because of tilt.

I actually don't even know if I should post this, I partly don't want to touch this conversation with a ten foot pole, but

I also think it's unfair to Gamma and DT to imply that town lost this because Nancy's slot was "compromised" when I don't think that really reflects what happened in this game.

*Backs quickly away from conversation*

+1

[Nancy Drew 39]

why did you not insist she leave the game in pre-dance when she bolded the request

I did.

That would have been a lot more fair. I definitely would have preferred that.

[Gamma Emerald]

I agree with the above

[Nancy Drew 39]

a good personal rule on replacing out because of what is happening in a game.
before requesting it in game. take a 24 hour game break and if you still want to replace out you can make a post with alot less emotion in it so people won't read into it.

I obviously should have done that. I was extremely stressed in too and under the weather. I was serious about replacing out att. I just changed my mind after the fact. I didn’t eat for days, during dance 2.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I agree with the above

It 100% beats feeling treated likea lab rat in a science experiment, that’s for damn sure.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Good game. First time I've been mislynched. By the time it got to that, I was pretty sure Moment and I were both town, but I really didn't know what to do about it, or care enough to fight. I'd already accepted that I wasn't going to endgame.

I never would have guessed DT was The Worst. Looking back I can see the similarities,

but the thought had never crossed my mind. I'd probably have accepted (if he'd asked me properly), if I had known. We probably would have been lynched earlier than DT/SS were.

DT/Duck, did you ever actually plan to be partnered with me?

Me neither. Duck, what have you been hiding from me?

[Nancy Drew 39]

DT is duckling?

FACT: We

all

have a little duckling in all of us.

[Nancy Drew 39]

He's not. Ank said "how dare you rolling scum with me duck" referring to the first iteration of this game, not this one. The worst was spectating the game, he couldn't be playing it at the same time

Meh, I wouldn’t put anything past duck. Almost nothing is outside his scumrange.

Better to be safe than sorry. Always assume tw is scum until proven otherwise.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I apologize, Nancy.

I think it's best if we don't cross paths again in the future.

You have my sincerest wishes.

I would actually be really touched by this but I already read your not so subtle attempt to slander me first, so I know this isn’t sincere. :/

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

Town Cases ~ Part 1: Why is Nancy

Town

?

I've been up and down Nancy's ISO. I've read and reread our PT together at least a few times now. There is not a universe where you could convince me Nancy is scum.

To begin with, there have been a couple times when Nancy has gotten emotional during conflicts with another player that demonstrate her alignment.

EXHIBIT A: FIREBRANGER

If you don't remember, Nancy had a conflict early in the game that resulted in her nearly replacing out. Largely, it was a conflict that sparked between her and Firebringer.

It started in post #294.

allomancer is scum this game btw

Why?

nancy don't make me suspect u this early

Why? Because I want to know why you think Allo is scum?

It continues and reaches a climax in posts #561 and #564. Phrases of interest bolded for clarity:

I don’t know if I even want to get picked anymore. I feel like I’m being scumreading without any basis and every single attempt I’ve made to ge clarity on this, seems to get viewed as some kind of scumclaim. I’m seriously contemplating replacing out at this point and they can toture my replacement instead. :/

I think you should stay and we should probably PT together like a pair of masons! \o/

It’s better for town, that I just bow out now anyway and if no one picks me

, then I won’t need to be replaced. I honestly don’t know what else to do at this point. I just know, I’m not having fun anymore

@mod please replace me.

This is like MBoS all over agian and I’m not fucking putting myself through that. Sorry.

First of all, to state that it might be better for town if no one picks them is an

incredibly dangerous

claim for scum to make, because there's the very real chance town will take them up on the offer—especially so at a time when the slot is so widely pressured/scum read. The fact of the matter is, it's not a desperate grab for town cred. If you consider that emotion to be faked, you also have to consider that the replacement wasn't genuine, and to replace out of a game for town cred is not something I believe Nancy would ever do.

EXHIBIT B: DOUBTINGTOXIC

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

Lolwut?

You were town in that game and it was blatantly obvious, soley based on what you posted in our DC.

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

Lolwut?

You were town in that game and it was blatantly obvious, soley based on what you posted in our DC.

wtf? why are you lying you literally cussed me out in discord lover PT for thinking you could be scum

you said "you are just scum at this point for not obv town reading me" then you got banned for angleshooting (lol)

don't pretend you correctly town read me. you literally subbed out cuz u thought i was a scum for not reading you town

which was kinda insane

I obtown read you and yes, thanks for reminding me of something I’d really rather forget. I was trying to do whatever I could think of to get you to see that I was town, so we wouldn’t lose the game with our mislynch.
I knew I had majorly fucked up by wrongly pushing El pair mislynch and you promised to lynch us if they flipped town, so yes I really was that desperate for you not to lose us the game because you totally sucked at reading me. Happy now.?

Yeah, and I paid the price for it, as you’ve already said.

Gamma, interesting. What connection do you see between Moment and I and DT then?

Also it's time to get this moving along.
VOTE: Doubting Thomas

L-1

DT was consistently pushing both me and TB but voted me for most of that period and was up my ass. That tells me the TB push was likely distancing.
Also VOTE: TheBrie again

I’m just really glad he’s out of the game.

He was being toxic and him throwing that game in my face like that, was really mean.

Spoiler:

My argument was that you should have had reads three days ago and that town is on the clock. I think I made exactly one post about it. Stop acting like I was talking up a storm about your post activity, that was simply me refuting the notion that there wasn't enough to work with irt your slot to get a read.

i town read SS and not scum read SS. that is not hard to understand. I think there are definite scum in Gamma or Brie. Maybe in PB, Nancy, etc if I look more into it.

As far as I know this is your reads right now. We have 5 days to solve the game. Who gets lynched today DT? Why are you continuing to bitch about me not spoonfeeding you interactions when you are presenting 0 indications of a solving mindset? Do you want Brie lynched today? Do you want Gamma to go first? Why in that order?

I have read your games and you are not this directionless as town. I feel like you just want to throw dirt at whoever is online and posting rather than working toward a gamesolve.

I thought I made my reads on other players to a certain degree so I am confused as to why you are trying to shade me this hard.

I think Gamma is obv scum but didn't realize she is partners with IC. Thinking maybe we can let them live technically just because we know for sure her partner is town and you made a fair point about gamma 'spewing'

I think Worm/PB are pretty null.

I think Brie's "reads" have been very subpar. I explained this before but you haven't read my posts properly so I will say it again

These are all of her "reads" that she made today:

Leaning towards scum on Moment, but he's not giving me anything to read. Conflicted on Pink Ball.

I went and did meta on Gamma. Her game is quite similar as town and scum, as town she's got more questions that force others to get involved and are really challenging, as a little less "Explain this" and sort of mechanical stuff, or comments on how people are playing. But it's close, and I can't tell which side this falls on. Maybe a tiny bit towards the scum side, but not enough to say anything solid. It's not outside her town range.

There's a few things that give me a scummy feel, but overall... I've not gotten her sorted out. i just know I'm not putting her solidly in as town.

In summary, she basically just says, "I lean scum. but he doesn't have any content to base my read on him. Idk Pink ball. I did meta on Gamma. I can't tell if she's town or scum. maybe a little scum. Don't have anything solid.

This is definition of hedging and she is refusing to take a stance. I think that is an overtly scum trait.

I also don't buy her explanation of insta accepting moment's invitation, as S_S pointed out

Mostly because I was afraid life would hardly let me on before the deadline. i had a couple days of full on work (waking up at three am), and I didn't know then how tired I would be the rest of the time. Bad reason.
Also, I wasn't really townreading SS then, and didn't really want her with Moment.

i don't really see scum!Moment asking scum!SS when he had a reasonable chance of town!me accepting. So currently townreading SS. Not townreading Moment, but I want to see him post again before making a final judgement.

I think this is >rand scum thing to do.

I also think Nancy constantly talking about my lover PT is >rand scum. I cannot understand why she thinks that would be NAI and scum read me for it. sounds scummy.

I think Worm's tone is townie, but I am confused as to why he completely ignored you and my interaction to talk about me at all in the last 10 pages that I read

I think Gamma has done very little solving and noone really town reads her. I think the way she got mad and attacked me out of nowehre is extremely scummy because she was blatantly lying about my progression on her. I think she can go, but I can accept why people wouldn't want to lynch her because she is lovers with an IC.

In that sense, I think Brie also has very high scum equity especially with her performance today. I haven't read Moment at all. hopefully he comes back soon. maybe ill iso him eventually.

I think nancy has good scum equity as well for oddly attacking me for not talking in lovers PT when i simply havent been on. I also think it was weird for her to give a reason for twon reading dann by using a post itt despite having lovers PT she so loves to talk about with him. i think dann is kinda townie for his posts tho and i initially town read nancy, so i personally prefer brie's lynch who i scum read harder and have no opinion on the lover for

i made all of this pretty clear in my recent posts so don't give me the "i dont see any reads from you" shit. read my shit.

i think you are just conf biasing and not reading my posts to tunnel me. i think you cussing me out is unnecessary and just provoking me really hard. believe me i can get real toxic real fast.

i don't want to go down that path so if you unnecessarily cuss me out again i will just ignore your presence and play the game around so i can at least leave a good legacy if you are just gonna deathtunnel me. i do think you are somewhat townie (despite S_S believing otherwise) and I think Taly is very townie so I don't want to get involved in a useless mess with you.

good luck with the rest of the game if you have anything intelligent to say that you want to approach me in a mature way to talk about, i'd be glad to talk. otherwise, i think you are just stuck in a tunnel and will play the game around you

So, in this post DT does say both Brie and Gamma are scum. The difference is he actually cases Brie here and I bolded a part towards the top where he says Gamma can actually be left alive. So I'd actually say he was pushing Brie more than you, Gamma.

Also good to note, right below the bolded portion, he has PB/Dr Worm as null. That, imo combined with his interactions with PB later make more sense as soft distancing.

I have experience with scum!DT and he is really clever. He fooled me in MU Suk game, so it’s extremely likey that he was deliberately trying to get himself lynched to save at least one of his buddies.

I think his shitting on me for pushing him posting in his PT, was just WIFOM to make everyone think he was afraid of it but I think it’s well within his scumrange to have fooled SS, if he had really wanted to. He was open wolfing here and he obviously knew it.

Spoiler:

Nancy and DT have lowkey clashed all game, but this was the peak of it, occurring from posts #4825 to #5060. If you believe Nancy is scum, then you must also believe all the Nancy/DT interactions this game are scum theatre. Again, I read Nancy as completely genuine here. I think if Nancy and DT really had been scum buddies here, Nancy would have replaced out a long long time ago. I don't think that's a stretch to assert.

There are other things that point towards Nancy being town too. Namely, the choice of IC. Selecting PvtUrist as the IC directs more suspicion towards me. If we are entertaining the fact that Nancy could be the deepwolf, her game plan requires that she survive till endgame. ICing Pvt puts the odds against her by splashing suspicion on me. If I'm the most suspicious person going into endgame, it's not likely Nancy will win it. Scum in this setup, particularly a deep wolf in this situation, has to play to survive until endgame. This means they have to avoid the deaths of both themselves and their partner.

Another point in Nancy's favor is that she initially pushed to have Krazy as her lover. This is a good because Krazy at no point was "universally town read," with RC being a far better candidate. I think if Nancy was scum, she would have pushed harder to be in a pair with RC.

In the end, if Nancy is scum here, she deserves to win a fucking Oscar.

this whole post didn't age well.
Nancy gets an Oscar now?

<3



I’d be more than happy to settle for the mod congratulating my team on its victory but I’m not that much of an optimist.

@mod:

[Nancy Drew 39]

It was stupid of me to base my town case off of an attempted replace-out. I don't really blame Nancy, it was my fault for thinking it was AI

At least I'll hopefully have a more critical eye for AtE in general going forward

If you believe Nancy is scum, then you must also believe all the Nancy/DT interactions this game are scum theatre.

I never fake my emotions

. AtEing for me like derping, is 100% NIA and ftr, I actually was upset and freaked out by that post DT. The only reason I didn’t react more strongly was that you gave me the heads up in scumchat, that you were going to do something kind of brutal, so I basically tried my best brace myself for it. I just had no idea what.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think this game should serve as a springboard for a shift in site meta to regard toxic 1v1s as scum theater and to lynch both slots.

Isn’t that like every mafia game ever?

[Nancy Drew 39]

This is also what happens when endgame pairings in the previous run are generated based on personality conflicts.

Create a town strategy of endgaming based on hostility, and you create a strong incentive to create a hostile gamestate as a means of advancing the scum wincon.

???

DT wasn’t in the previous run. *confused*

[Nancy Drew 39]

In witches ball, I mean, not the false started run of this setup

Ok maybe I'm still bitter about being denied a pairing with creature

He wasn’t in that one either, unless you are referring to Short? That PT wasn’t exactly “friendly”, when I replaced in.