Fire on the Mountain [Over]


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Post Post #325 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:02 am

Post by DoubtingThomas »

In post 321, Shoshin wrote:Policy lynching is a shitty crutch for people who don't know how to distinguish town from scum. It also prevents creative plays & makes games completely unfun.
creative plays?

tell me what about

"This is boring"

"*Self vote*"

was fucking creative

what the fuck in the world did you get out of doing that? What did you accomplish? How did that make the game more fun?
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Post Post #326 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 am

Post by DoubtingThomas »

CREATIVE PLAYS INCOMINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

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VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
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Post Post #327 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 am

Post by DoubtingThomas »

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW I AM SO CREATIVE GAME IS SO MUCH MORE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Post #328 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:04 am

Post by DoubtingThomas »

VOTE: shoshin

die. worthless
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Post Post #329 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:05 am

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When I say policy lynch, Xtox, I'm talking about lynching people for things that aren't AI (e.g. self-voting). Like, if you caught someone in a role lie, you're lynching them because they're scum, not because of some dumb policy. And in my opinion, if someone's trolling the game, it's the mod's duty to step in, not the players.
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Post Post #330 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:06 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

In post 321, Shoshin wrote:Policy lynching is a shitty crutch for people who don't know how to distinguish town from scum. It also prevents creative plays & makes games completely unfun.
I can assure you that voting yourself to get more votes on you is in no way creative. As someone who has been wagoned (and pushes people to wagon himself multiple times) I guarantee that all you did by voting yourself was give some people a reason to put their vote on you under the guise of PL-ing, and other people a reason to TR you (because why would scum vote themselves), both of which just means you generated easy content for scum that's not as discernible from the rest of the game.

Policy lynching isn't a "shitty crutch" it's a bar. Far too many people on this site play below baseline acceptable for town. Policy lynching encourages creativity in play because it gets rid of half-wits who think lurking, sheeping, and self-voting are new and creative ways to play mafia.
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:roll: Aside from that entire post being annoying as fuck, your scumread on me makes no sense." -Elyse (scum)
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Post Post #331 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.
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:roll: Aside from that entire post being annoying as fuck, your scumread on me makes no sense." -Elyse (scum)
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Post Post #332 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:13 am

Post by Karmeleon »

In post 276, Xtoxm wrote:yeah alright 2 trs
Thanks.
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Post Post #333 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:13 am

Post by northsidegal »

Votecount 1.5

Shoshin(3)
~ (10), (8), (68)

DoubtingThomas(3)
~ (13), (28), (13)
Xtoxm(1)
~ (9)
Vedith(1)
~ (61)
NerfedBuJ(1)
~ (3)
Lycanfire(1)
~ (1)
Gamma Emerald(1)
~ (9)
Extrapolated Eagle(1)
~ (23)
Clemency(1)
~ (32)


Not Voting (4): Gamma Emerald(15), Clemency(6), Vedith(23), Karmeleon(4)

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-03-19 22:19:59)
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Post Post #334 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:14 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

In post 330, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:Policy lynching isn't a "shitty crutch" it's a bar. Far too many people on this site play below baseline acceptable for town. Policy lynching encourages creativity in play because it gets rid of half-wits who think lurking, sheeping, and self-voting are new and creative ways to play mafia.
To add to the list: Fakeclaiming (something I've read in a game recently and heard rumors of as really popular), and lying.

FTR I DO run wagons on myself to get out of RVS. But there are more ways to conglomerate votes than self-voting. I know this takes some creativity, but have you thought about pushing people to vote one way or another, (i.e. "vote DT or me, please") or moving your vote a lot in RVS with little to no explanation/acting weird/uncomfortable/scummy in general?

And I know it takes a bit of creativity to adapt to situations, but what what if that were an option? I'm seriously considering leaving RVS in the way it is right now. I found it fascinating the assembly and disassembly of the wagon on me as well as the fact that votes seem to intend on being smattered about almost randomly. What if you didn't apply this cookie-cutter "we have to come out of RVS with a wagon" mindset?
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:roll: Aside from that entire post being annoying as fuck, your scumread on me makes no sense." -Elyse (scum)
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Post Post #335 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:16 am

Post by Karmeleon »

In post 300, DoubtingThomas wrote:mafiascum's selfvoting meta is laughable
I've seen worse.
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Post Post #336 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:17 am

Post by Shoshin »

Why don't you talk about who the scum are instead of PLs, EE?
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Post Post #337 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:17 am

Post by DoubtingThomas »

HOT DAMN

lets go eagles for PRESIDENT

Those posts are pure FACT MACHINE GUN thats just savagely violates illogical villaibs
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Post Post #338 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:18 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

In post 336, Shoshin wrote:Why don't you talk about who the scum are instead of PLs, EE?
In post 331, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.
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:roll: Aside from that entire post being annoying as fuck, your scumread on me makes no sense." -Elyse (scum)
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Post Post #339 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:18 am

Post by Karmeleon »

In post 331, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.
You're right, we should do setup spec instead.
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Post Post #340 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:19 am

Post by Shoshin »

You're the one talking about PLs, EE, not me. I've asked you for reads. You refused. I asked you to vote Alisae. You refused. You're the one who's choosing to talk about NAI stuff, not me.
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Post Post #341 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:20 am

Post by Shoshin »

Karmeleon, what're your reads at this point?
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Post Post #342 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:21 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

In post 340, Shoshin wrote:You're the one talking about PLs, EE, not me. I've asked you for reads. You refused. I asked you to vote Alisae. You refused. You're the one who's choosing to talk about NAI stuff, not me.
You read the wrong part of the post I quoted.

That's fine. I'll spell it out for you. I'm waiting on specific people to get here and respond to specific things that happened in the thread prior to your self-vote. Until then I have not much to say.
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Post Post #343 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:24 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

Frozen Angel please discuss how you feel you're being read by the game right now and whether or not you think that's fair.
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:roll: Aside from that entire post being annoying as fuck, your scumread on me makes no sense." -Elyse (scum)
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Post Post #344 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:28 am

Post by Karmeleon »

In post 341, Shoshin wrote:Karmeleon, what're your reads at this point?
Spoiler: Towncore
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Spoiler: Towncore candidates
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Spoiler: Scum candidates
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Everybody else is null.
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Post Post #345 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:28 am

Post by DoubtingThomas »

Summary of shoshins play:

>Continues to ignore my attempt to engage her by just askinng a question

>I vote her

>Self votes after saying this game is boring

>Gets shit because self voting accomplishes nothing but level 0 scum or town reads

>Says I am scum for advocating a policy lynch on her

>Says policy lynch advocaters are people who cant discern between scums and towns and kills creativity of the game even tho sef voting, as eagles said, is a cancer vote that accomplishes nothing but wifom and has absolutely nothing creative about it

>After getting slam dunked by eagles says, “Why dont you find scums instead of talking sbout policy lynches”

LMFAO this is scum mvp level play if town
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Post Post #346 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:29 pm

Post by Shoshin »

I'm going to respond to EE's discussion on PLs briefly. If you're not EE, please feel free to ignore.

Spoiler:
Who sets the "bar"? Who defines "baseline acceptable for town"? You? The point is, reasonable people disagree about how to play the game. You might think self-voting is unacceptable while others find it perfectly legitimate. What gives you more insight than others?

I don't think you (or anyone) knows what's optimal or unacceptable. Mafia's too complex. In the post-game, it's easy to point at behaviors/actions that cost the game. But while the game's ongoing, nobody knows shit about what's optimal/unacceptable. How do you know that lurking, sheeping, self-voting, fakeclaiming, or lying won't work out this time? Different setup, different circumstances, different players -- all these things might change whether something works or doesn't.

So I don't think it's fair to PL someone for deviating from your idea of what's acceptable. I apply a simple (non-arbitrary) standard: If someone's making a good faith effort to win, don't PL them. They might do something you dislike but that doesn't mean you should punish them for thinking about the game differently than you, especially while the game is ongoing. Post-game, you can discuss all you want. But until the game is over, nobody has absolute knowledge about whether it's the right/wrong play.

The strongest players I know don't bat an eye at self-voting or lying. Most of them partake on occasion. So the idea that stronger players don't engage in these sorts of behaviors is demonstrably false. If anything, it's the players who never improve that limit themselves in this way. After all, how do you expect to improve if you put yourself in a box?

You attack my play as suboptimal. So what? Do you PL someone anytime they do something that you find suboptimal? I'd hope that you at least have the humility to recognize that just because you think something's wrong during a game doesn't mean it's actually wrong (this turns out to be the case with reads quite often, for example). I usually get called "bad," "horrible," "atrocious," etc. during games by players who later call me "amazing," "GOAT," "MVP," "god tier," in the post-game. What's happening there? Incomplete knowledge shades how you view things.

And that applies anytime you're pushing a PL. Incomplete knowledge shades everything you do. I'll also note, pushing PLs gives control to the scum because they easily avoid them when in games with you. It's also too easy for scum to push mislynches via PLs. And at the end of the day, it's always possible to distinguish town/scum regardless of what behavior someone's engaging. I usually love when players lie because it's easy access to their motive (why'd they lie? was it to further scum agenda? if not, they're probably town because scum don't lie without reason to do so).

For what it's worth, I have roughly a 75% win rate as town (if you include alts) so I'd say I'm doing pretty well with my chosen tactics, including lurking, sheeping, lying, fakeclaiming, and self-voting. While people might dislike them during games, nobody questions the results afterwards. I hope that you will revisit this in the endgame as well instead of attacking it with incomplete knowledge. I also hope that you revisit your view on PLs.
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Post Post #347 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:38 pm

Post by Shoshin »

In terms of the current gamestate, this is what I'm getting from the self-vote:

Xtox is town. He easily could have stayed on my wagon if he were scum but he's thinking steps deeper. He caught what I was doing (building a wagon) & moved off as soon as he saw DT's scummy reaction. His earlier posts were already townish but this solidifies the read for me.

DT's likely scum. I don't see town DT responding this strongly to a self-vote when he knows that townies do it all the time. His inability to keep straight whether he's pushing me as a PL or pushing me as scummy scum feels like scum who wants me to get lynched for the self-vote but doesn't want to seem scummy for exclusively pushing a PL. He's also blatantly buddying up to EE in ways that feels like scum/town.
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Post Post #348 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:47 pm

Post by Vedith »

I don't think I want Shoshin lynched day1
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #349 (ISO) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:49 pm

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