Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[PvtUrist]

Pagetop /o/ \o\ /o/

[northsidegal]

Votecount 1.7

Shoshin(4)

~ Lycanfire(10), NerfedBuJ(9), DoubtingThomas(70), grapes(5)

DoubtingThomas(3)

~ Reiuji Utsuho(17), Shoshin(45), Xtoxm(15)

Xtoxm(1)

~ DrDolittle(15)

Vedith(1)

~ Extrapolated Eagle(78)

Lycanfire(1)

~ mcqueen(1)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ PvtUrist(10)

Extrapolated Eagle(1)

~ Frozen Angel(23)

Clemency(1)

~ Alisae(32)


Not Voting (4): Gamma Emerald(15), Clemency(6), Vedith(32), Karmeleon(8)

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-03-19 22:19:59)

[PvtUrist]

Shoshin!DT interaction feels more like personality clash than anything AI

[NerfedBuJ]

@shoshin - I'm voting you primarily because you're assigning reads based on who agrees with you or doesn't on the self-vote thing which is a bad way of sortint.
You scumread DT and EE while I townread them. Plus DT scumread you before the self vote because you didn't respond to him/her. Self-voting is not scumhunting. Town need to be scumhunting.

And yes two people I scumread and voted for self-voted. I'm supposed to townread that because sometimes townies do it? They sped up their own lynches and cut the days short. Playing against their win con.

@vedith - they made the game unnecessarily harder by contributing to their own quickhammer.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

To clarify my position on Shoshin at the moment: I'm refusing to read her because I'm still waiting on specific people to respond to specific things.

I'm refusing to respond to further illusions of defense of her self vote until I have sorted other parts of the game, because I am not trying to sort her at this point in time, so discussing things that might be AI are merely distracting for me, and because it appears as if she isn't actually interested in defending the thought process behind the self vote. This does not mean I am refusing to engage with her on other subjects nor do I expect her to sit silently while I make a case against her, if/when I do case her I will fully expect a rebuttal and I will respond to anything posted there with an open mind.

Until that point in time, however, I'm not interested in hearing further arguments towards your self-vote, shoshin. I'm not telling you not to post and I'm not pretending I have power over what you do or do not post. I'm simply clarifying my stance. I'm a bit annoyed at the moment so I figure it's best to try to maximize clarity and move on for me at the moment.

[Shoshin]

I don't think it's fair to scumread me for doing stuff that townies do, Buj. I never said I scumread EE. As for DT, I'm not alone in thinking he's scum so I don't see what the problem is from your perspective? Why are you townreading DT?

[Frozen Angel]

Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

What FA's manipulative posting? Please quote my posts and show me which posts are you even talking about

I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

I find this pretty scummy as well so I dunno how Alisae's getting town on FA either.

Elaborate on why that post of me is scummy to you

I don't know what are you even talking about
What manipulative posting? And What do you mean about "same reaction" same reaction to what? Which eagle reaction are you even talking about?

It bugs me cause it feels like you're ghost hunting and I find it kinda scummy

[Frozen Angel]

This is boring.

VOTE: Shoshin

[Frozen Angel]

What's the harm in self-voting?

[Frozen Angel]

I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

I hate policy lynching

Policy lynching is like telling the idiots that you care for them.

It makes them feel loved.

Just moving on from this crap. hopefully all other pages is not just policy lynch discussions and there are game relevant content.

@Shoshin If you are town, the harm you did to game was way more extreme than 3 free kills to mafia. By making the discussions about if you are worthy to get policy lynched or not, you tried to ruin the day-game in this game.

@everyone Such selfvotes - as bullshit as they are - are not AI. we are here to find mafia. Please calm yourself and look at the game context and try to hunt motivations instead of pushing for policy lynches. If you think shoshin as scum did it, it's a fair talk but if you just want that behavior dead, ruining this game to discuss and pushing a policy lynch is horrible way to do it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm going to bed right now, Alita (FA), but I left you a couple presents that I'd like you to open.

I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

I hate policy lynching

Policy lynching is like telling the idiots that you care for them.

It makes them feel loved.

Just moving on from this crap. hopefully all other pages is not just policy lynch discussions and there are game relevant content.

@Shoshin If you are town, the harm you did to game was way more extreme than 3 free kills to mafia. By making the discussions about if you are worthy to get policy lynched or not, you tried to ruin the day-game in this game.

@everyone Such selfvotes - as bullshit as they are - are not AI. we are here to find mafia. Please calm yourself and look at the game context and try to hunt motivations instead of pushing for policy lynches. If you think shoshin as scum did it, it's a fair talk but if you just want that behavior dead, ruining this game to discuss and pushing a policy lynch is horrible way to do it.

I can agree with your views on Policy Lynching. Let me rephrase what I said earlier then.

"I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss lynching anti-town behavior."

[Frozen Angel]

All of you haters need to break out your boxes. Self-voting doesn’t mean anything bad will happen.

VOTE: Doubting

See? No harm done.

To be clear, I voted myself to get a wagon going. It wasn't "AtE" or because I was "scumread." It was to consolidate votes.

I find this post towny.

(Still #@$#@) but towny.

@Shoshin You must find scums. Getting a wagon going on yourself will prove nothing to you. How experienced are you with mafia?

[Frozen Angel]

sure eagle when I get there I look at it

Policy lynching is beyond stupid. I'll actually replace out of this game if that's what this comes to.

I'm going to assume for the moment it's just scum DT trying to manipulate this situation to his ends.

Not related to the game as it's not AI again in this context pretty sure but:

Spoiler:

On a separate note, Threatening to replace out the way you did it here should be against the game rules cause it's just shit. Play better and not get lynched. Threatening to replace out before getting lynched for an action you committed in the game is like destroying the chess board cause you are loosing.

[Frozen Angel]

CREATIVE PLAYS INCOMINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG



VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS

Yeah, this fire is irking me rn a little bit.

Did you have a bad experience with self-votes from previous games that it fired you up like this?

[Frozen Angel]

Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.

Good post here

[Frozen Angel]

Frozen Angel please discuss how you feel you're being read by the game right now and whether or not you think that's fair.

I'm not sure how I'm read by a bunch of players here.

Shoshin said something about me being manipulative which still makes no sense. lycan fire attacked it cause it had a logical flaw in progression. I still don't understand the basis of that argument.

I understood your point though, about my gif posting and all, I liked your posts about it specially that "manipulative is not the correct word but I stick with it" post was really good. I didn't understand why you hesitated in explaining your read about me to DT. I didn't like the way DT didn't give their read about me there either.

About Ali I have a bunch of mixed feelings that I'm sorting out rn. But they definitly gave their town read on me "Too early" for my liking. They even said it was too early afterward but I have a hard time digesting it. Waiting for more context from ali tbh.

[Frozen Angel]

Karmeleon, what're your reads at this point?

Spoiler: Towncore

Spoiler: Towncore candidates

Spoiler: Scum candidates

Everybody else is null.

I don't like this

[Frozen Angel]

I'm going to respond to EE's discussion on PLs briefly. If you're not EE, please feel free to ignore.

Spoiler:

Who sets the "bar"? Who defines "baseline acceptable for town"? You? The point is, reasonable people disagree about how to play the game. You might think self-voting is unacceptable while others find it perfectly legitimate. What gives you more insight than others?

I don't think you (or anyone) knows what's optimal or unacceptable. Mafia's too complex. In the post-game, it's easy to point at behaviors/actions that cost the game. But while the game's ongoing, nobody knows shit about what's optimal/unacceptable. How do you know that lurking, sheeping, self-voting, fakeclaiming, or lying won't work out this time? Different setup, different circumstances, different players -- all these things might change whether something works or doesn't.

So I don't think it's fair to PL someone for deviating from your idea of what's acceptable. I apply a simple (non-arbitrary) standard: If someone's making a good faith effort to win, don't PL them. They might do something you dislike but that doesn't mean you should punish them for thinking about the game differently than you, especially while the game is ongoing. Post-game, you can discuss all you want. But until the game is over, nobody has absolute knowledge about whether it's the right/wrong play.

The strongest players I know don't bat an eye at self-voting or lying. Most of them partake on occasion. So the idea that stronger players don't engage in these sorts of behaviors is demonstrably false. If anything, it's the players who never improve that limit themselves in this way. After all, how do you expect to improve if you put yourself in a box?

You attack my play as suboptimal. So what? Do you PL someone anytime they do something that you find suboptimal? I'd hope that you at least have the humility to recognize that just because you think something's wrong during a game doesn't mean it's actually wrong (this turns out to be the case with reads quite often, for example). I usually get called "bad," "horrible," "atrocious," etc. during games by players who later call me "amazing," "GOAT," "MVP," "god tier," in the post-game. What's happening there? Incomplete knowledge shades how you view things.

And that applies anytime you're pushing a PL. Incomplete knowledge shades everything you do. I'll also note, pushing PLs gives control to the scum because they easily avoid them when in games with you. It's also too easy for scum to push mislynches via PLs. And at the end of the day, it's always possible to distinguish town/scum regardless of what behavior someone's engaging. I usually love when players lie because it's easy access to their motive (why'd they lie? was it to further scum agenda? if not, they're probably town because scum don't lie without reason to do so).

For what it's worth, I have roughly a 75% win rate as town (if you include alts) so I'd say I'm doing pretty well with my chosen tactics, including lurking, sheeping, lying, fakeclaiming, and self-voting. While people might dislike them during games, nobody questions the results afterwards. I hope that you will revisit this in the endgame as well instead of attacking it with incomplete knowledge. I also hope that you revisit your view on PLs.

Spoiler:

Funny story

I once acted like that I'm self-hammering myself and claimed for real that I'm a macho tracker. Then I got track guilty result 2 nights in row (as I saw the correct mafia shooting people) and called out a no-kill gambit correctly on their night where the mafia decided to finally kill me and realized they can't get me lynched.

Every action has its moment and might help the game.

You proved in this game that you don't know about such momentums and higher level gaming.

What you did here was not beneficial to the town. You did not progress the game in any manner. You just ruined the earlier discussions.

So grow up. Learn to play better. Don't do anti-town crap in my games if you don't know what you are doing. Fair?

[Frozen Angel]

He caught what I was doing (building a wagon)

You did not build a wagon

I like your DT read though. I didn't like that reaction either.

[Frozen Angel]

Vedith's probably town. I was thinking it the moment he called my Eagle vote bad. Defending me now solidifies the read.

I hated this post so much.

Defending me now solidifies the read.

makes me vomit especially since its made about

"I don't want shoshin lynched today"

[Shoshin]

I like your DT read though. I didn't like that reaction either.

I'm glad you were able to get something useful from the self-vote.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm tired - angry and a bit bored of reading this crap about self-voting.

Had a couple of shit to say that I'm not going to anymore.

Just that Shoshin your game-play so far in this game sucks. I'm not going to insult you as a person, nor as a player. Just that you're having a very very very aweful game here and I hope you step it up.

done. Please for the love of god. End this crap in the game thread. No more posts about self-voting itself. Just discuss

this game

.

pedit: Don't make me insult you.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't think it's fair to scumread me for doing stuff that townies do, Buj. I never said I scumread EE. As for DT, I'm not alone in thinking he's scum so I don't see what the problem is from your perspective? Why are you townreading DT?

Also before I forget.

Please don't look up to RC.

He is a bad mentor for teaching town game. No offense was meant to him.

I and RC were close friends at some point. I have a lot of games played with him - probably more than all of you combined.

[Alisae]

About Ali I have a bunch of mixed feelings that I'm sorting out rn. But they definitly gave their town read on me "Too early" for my liking. They even said it was too early afterward but I have a hard time digesting it. Waiting for more context from ali tbh.

before I read anything gun to head what am I?

[Shoshin]

I get told my play sucks every game, nothing new. How about telling us your reads instead of talking about boring stuff, FA?