Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Extrapolated Eagle]

No. Because there's still information to analyze.

Is your reason for voting Shoshin dumb? Should Vedith have a read on Shoshin? Does Vedith have a different person he's interested in pursuing?

How is what Vedith is doing any different than if he'd come into the thread without a read on Shoshin and blindly sheeped you for pressure?

What information do you've to analyze? Please share with me how your read on DT or anyone other than Before changed because of Vedith saying the vote on shoshin was dumb.

I saw you make the argument that he took a stance. That's my argument too. He took a stance that doesn't help town at all. He's still free to push shoshin if he makes up his own reason - he wouldn't be contradicting himself because he never town read her.

How does blindly sleeping me help anything on Shoshin? Do you, for some reason , think that I was pushing Shoshin?

Eh, that part is kind of off topic. I'll answer your question even though you imply I was pushing shoshin, from which I can infer that your skim was to skimmy. If he had come in the thread and blindly sheeped me on himself or frozen angel , depending on when you're saying he came in at, it would have helped me read frozen Angel a lot better, because FA responds with tells that I can read better when she thinks I'm making an argument people believe against her. If he had sheeped me on himself, I would have the same discussion with him that I had with shoshin. If he had sheepd DT on Shoshin, it probably would have helped because it would indicate the Shoshin wagon was gaining traction and she might be more likely to town spew, which would have helped me read her a bit better and it would show me he's interested in finding other players alignments, not acting from a place of certainty.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

Kinda, yes.

Counterpoint:

Why is shosin still alive?

4 more votes needed.

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Shoshin isn't today's lynch.
I'd rather away from DT but I'll lynch DT over Shoshin.

I didn't like the fuel on the fire saying that a game we just had was almost lost from self voting.
It's a different situation all together, and as said, both players to do it were town so BuJ should surely have the mentality that it's a townier thing to do.

VOTE: NerfedBuJ

While pushing against the Shoshin wagon, Vedith was offering alternatives.

I knew you were going to post this. Counterpoint:

UNVOTE: DoubtingThomas

Im sure this is TvT all over.
And lazy town/Scum are encouraging it for easy mis lynches.

His push on DoubtingThomas was only to get a townread for himself, like I said before. He wasn't pushing that seriously at all.

And his counterpoint to the wagon on Shoshin is "I want her alive because she's strong town"
She was at like L-5 at the peak of her wagon, and how often have you seen a player lynched based off an argument that happened in RVS? How is being afraid of her lynch here reasonable at all?

[Jingle]

I've already agreed that we're at an impass there. I think both of those stances are more likely town than scum. I've stated why I think that. I don't find the alternative presented to be more compelling, and honestly I'm not sure why anyone would think I should.

More to the point, I think a lack of read on a player is only AI when there is a reasonable expectation of a read on said player, and I think a lack of read on Shoshin was more or less expected at that point in the game. I would find it more scummy if Vedith DID have a read there.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

If Vedith thought scum was actually enccouraging him v DT as TvT for mislynches, why was his vote then placed on NerfedBuj, a player who's ISO between those two posts looks like this:

I think DT is town because I liked his/her comment to Reiuji, his/her pushing of Eagle to clarify, and his/her pushing of Shoshin to respond.

I also think people are mistaken in evaluating the overreaction. I think it is much more likely to come from town.

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

AtE is always NAI. Always.

But for the record.. no it is not.

'AtE is used by both town and scum depending on the situation' is correct.

'AtE is NAI' is incorrect.

We can argue that in both cases AtE tries to get people to do what the emotional person wants, but town and scum want different things so you know, you can actually read into the AtE.

and clearly was discouraging the Vedith v DT.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I've already agreed that we're at an impass there. I think both of those stances are more likely town than scum. I've stated why I think that. I don't find the alternative presented to be more compelling, and honestly I'm not sure why anyone would think I should.

More to the point, I think a lack of read on a player is only AI when there is a reasonable expectation of a read on said player, and I think a lack of read on Shoshin was more or less expected at that point in the game. I would find it more scummy if Vedith DID have a read there.

I think the fact that you still for some reason think that I was pushing Shoshin is baffling to me and I'm legitimately frustrated that you can't see why sitting on the fence and discouraging activity and people pushing their reads is anti-town.

[Jingle]

Eh, that part is kind of off topic. I'll answer your question even though you imply I was pushing shoshin, from which I can infer that your skim was to skimmy. If he had come in the thread and blindly sheeped me on himself or frozen angel , depending on when you're saying he came in at, it would have helped me read frozen Angel a lot better, because FA responds with tells that I can read better when she thinks I'm making an argument people believe against her. If he had sheeped me on himself, I would have the same discussion with him that I had with shoshin. If he had sheepd DT on Shoshin, it probably would have helped because it would indicate the Shoshin wagon was gaining traction and she might be more likely to town spew, which would have helped me read her a bit better and it would show me he's interested in finding other players alignments, not acting from a place of certainty.

It's largely irrelevant who he was fighting/sheeping wrt the Shoshin wagon. And no, I don't really remember the wagon comp because it was boring. It was a boring wagon, going nowhere, and producing nothing exceptionally juicy.

As for how Vedith's stance has influenced my reads, it's certainly helping with reading you.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

And I'd really like a reason why saying "stop pushing someone you're scumreading" when they're null for you is a town-aligned action. Even if you think the argument against them is dumb, if other people seem to think it's smart and the player starts spewing alignment-indicative posts, or people start jumping on the wagon opportunistically, you get reads on a player you previously had a null on, or you start scumreading players for jumping on with opportunistic votes. One way you end up with an argument in the game thread that leads to nowhere, the other way your reads sort themselves out and you get better reads on everyone.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

It's largely irrelevant who he was fighting/sheeping wrt the Shoshin wagon. And no, I don't really remember the wagon comp because it was boring. It was a boring wagon, going nowhere, and producing nothing exceptionally juicy.

As for how Vedith's stance has influenced my reads, it's certainly helping with reading you.

You're not paying attention, is what I'm getting at, and it's making me think you're confbiasing yourself into a surface level read.

As to your second point, you're being ridiculous if you think his stance was an intentional move to make me think he was scum and post this argument about him. You're literally making things up on the spot to defend your surface level read on a player because you want to hide the fact that you weren't paying attention, and it's frustrating to me that you wasted my time with your BS.

[Jingle]

I think the fact that you still for some reason think that I was pushing Shoshin is baffling to me and I'm legitimately frustrated that you can't see why sitting on the fence and discouraging activity and people pushing their reads is anti-town.

I frankly don't care if you were pushing Shoshin. It's largely irrelevant. What I do care about is why you're so insistent that Vedith have a read one way or the other on her before taking any stance.

I'm rather interested that you, who apparently (I'm just guessing and don't particularly care if I'm right here) don't have a read on Shoshin and didn't take a stance, think that Vedith taking said stance is discouraging activity.

[Jingle]

And I'd really like a reason why saying "stop pushing someone you're scumreading" when they're null for you is a town-aligned action. Even if you think the argument against them is dumb, if other people seem to think it's smart and the player starts spewing alignment-indicative posts, or people start jumping on the wagon opportunistically, you get reads on a player you previously had a null on, or you start scumreading players for jumping on with opportunistic votes. One way you end up with an argument in the game thread that leads to nowhere, the other way your reads sort themselves out and you get better reads on everyone.

Again, it doesn't look like it led nowhere to me. It looks like it led right here. With people taking stances, interacting, and generally becoming more readable.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also, quit only responding to points that you can talk out of your ass on, and respond to the whole thing. Don't respond right now, because it's clear you're still confbiased, but come back, legitimately look at what I'm saying, and consider it.

I think the fact that you still for some reason think that I was pushing Shoshin is baffling to me and I'm legitimately frustrated that you can't see why sitting on the fence and discouraging activity and people pushing their reads is anti-town.

I frankly don't care if you were pushing Shoshin. It's largely irrelevant. What I do care about is why you're so insistent that Vedith have a read one way or the other on her before taking any stance.

I'm rather interested that you, who apparently (I'm just guessing and don't particularly care if I'm right here) don't have a read on Shoshin and didn't take a stance, think that Vedith taking said stance is discouraging activity.

My point is that HE DID NOT TAKE A STANCE ON SHOSHIN.
HE TOOK A STANCE ON THE ARGUMENT.

And I'd really like a reason why saying "stop pushing someone you're scumreading" when they're null for you is a town-aligned action. Even if you think the argument against them is dumb, if other people seem to think it's smart and the player starts spewing alignment-indicative posts, or people start jumping on the wagon opportunistically, you get reads on a player you previously had a null on, or you start scumreading players for jumping on with opportunistic votes. One way you end up with an argument in the game thread that leads to nowhere, the other way your reads sort themselves out and you get better reads on everyone.

Again, it doesn't look like it led nowhere to me. It looks like it led right here. With people taking stances, interacting, and generally becoming more readable.

This argument is an argument for why scum play is pro-town. Because it leads to discussion and lynching of scum. You're literally arguing right now that anti-town play is pro-town, because his anti-town play lead to this discussion right here. Your arguments are so backwards I cannot fathom how you seem to think anyone else will swallow them.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm asking you to put some LEGITIMATE THOUGHT into what I'm saying and not just say things you made up on the spot cuz you're defending your pride. I don't care if you look dumb. I don't care if I look dumb. I spent most of my life looking dumb, and it's not going to stop me from trying to get scum lynched.

Please at some point in time try to understand what I'm saying and quit making things up on the spot.

[Jingle]

My point is that HE DID NOT TAKE A STANCE ON SHOSHIN.
HE TOOK A STANCE ON THE ARGUMENT.

I agree. I disagree that taking a stance on the argument is bad. I disagree that he should have taken a stance on Shoshin. I also disagree that taking a stance against a wagon on someone you don't have a read on is bad.

You seem to be under the belief that I agree that saying "Yo guys, your wagon sucks" is anti town. It isn't. At all.

[Jingle]

The funny part is that you think this conversation is about Vedith's alignment.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

My point is that HE DID NOT TAKE A STANCE ON SHOSHIN.
HE TOOK A STANCE ON THE ARGUMENT.

I agree. I disagree that taking a stance on the argument is bad. I disagree that he should have taken a stance on Shoshin. I also disagree that taking a stance against a wagon on someone you don't have a read on is bad.

You seem to be under the belief that I agree that saying "Yo guys, your wagon sucks" is anti town. It isn't. At all.

I'm not going to try to work through it again with you. You dont' seem to have a solid grasp on the whole of what I'm saying, and I guess that's fine. I'm sorry I stayed up to try and work through this with you

[Extrapolated Eagle]

The funny part is that you think this conversation is about Vedith's alignment.

I'm glad you're capable of coming up with quips that make you appear less thick on the spot, but really it's not necessary.

[Jingle]

Oh, no, that's not a quip. I just think the conversation has gotten to the point where I have enough to look at. If I was interested in determining Vedith's alignment through this exchange, I would have needed him to be involved. I can't speak to his motivations from any place of surety.

What I can do is keep you talking to see if what you're saying seems to be consistent and if you actually believe what you're talking about. I'm leaning towards bullshitting, but I need to step back and look at the whole exchange again.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Oh, no, that's not a quip. I just think the conversation has gotten to the point where I have enough to look at. If I was interested in determining Vedith's alignment through this exchange, I would have needed him to be involved. I can't speak to his motivations from any place of surety.

What I can do is keep you talking to see if what you're saying seems to be consistent and if you actually believe what you're talking about. I'm leaning towards bullshitting, but I need to step back and look at the whole exchange again.

I understood what you were saying. I'm saying you're making things up to hide the fact that you still have yet to consider my argument as a whole, IMO, and you saying you think I'm BSing because I called you out on your BS is OMGUS at the lowest level.

[Vedith]

Hello everyone \o/

@NSG can you prod DDL please?

I said in the sign ups I was doing this.
Just throwing that out there before work.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Actually, I take that back. Props if you really were trying to read me there, jingle. It was a bad idea, though, if you were, and I said so in the thread already. I'm still working on things. I'll townspew in a couple days.

[Clemency]

you guys are letting me get away with lurking way too easily

[Shoshin]

This:

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

What looks towny about Vedith and PvtUrist to you?

Talking theory is towny? Anyone could post this without even reading the game. How do you ever townread this?

I already said why Vedith's town.

I never said Pvt is town. Again, don't put words in my mouth.

[Shoshin]

The two you quoted earlier. We already discussed how its fake. If you disagree, you disagree. They're fake stances he's taking as scum for town points. He uses fake words to place his fake stances. He's lying by implying he's town. And we talked about how he took no stance on shoshins alignment while still trying to dismantle her wagon.

That's circular. You can't use these things as reasons he's scum if you're assuming he's scum to create the reasons int he first place.

[DrDolittle]

Not reading and making wild accusations is pretty scummy, EE

[DrDolittle]

Your play reminds me of Oka Poka scum play