Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[Irrelephant11]

But like I’m not even asking you about this game in the particular way you are viewing it. I’m asking you to assume for a second that she has successfully narrowed scum down to 3/4 players. In that scenario, would you rather have her lynched or myself, who has spent most of my time sheeping her without even knowing her alignment?

The question isn’t shit if I have a reason to ask, thanks

[Irrelephant11]

Meanwhile, scrolling through Shoshin’s ISO and all I can see is half of her iso being “what do you think about this, RC?” followed by naked votes without explanations

Also this is generally NAI playstyle from Shoshin
Though I’d like to see her go a little deeper than she has been lately

[DoubtingThomas]

But like I’m not even asking you about this game in the particular way you are viewing it. I’m asking you to assume for a second that she has successfully narrowed scum down to 3/4 players. In that scenario, would you rather have her lynched or myself, who has spent most of my time sheeping her without even knowing her alignment?

The question isn’t shit if I have a reason to ask, thanks

You asked her if I still disliked her player. I said yes.

If I know for sure she is town and all you are doing is sheeping her, sure we should lynch you over shoshin mechanically.

The reality is she is probably scum here and I need to get her lynched.

The question is shit because it's giving a hypothetical situation that doesn't really apply to the reality.

[Shoshin]

If DT's town, he's letting a personal grudge get in the way of this game.

[DoubtingThomas]

Of course I would play differently if I have a mechanical information that changes the situation. There's no point in asking such questions, because the reality isn't that.

You are asking a question like, "Will you kill a dog?" My answer would be no. Then you change up the scenario to be like, "A dog has gone mad and is about to kill your daughter. Will you kill that dog?"

The answer changes. Why did you ask this question

[Shoshin]

She’s not scum hunting at all, she’s just relying on RC’s reads and go from there, so I don’t see that scum hunting case you brought up, Auro

This is untrue.

[DoubtingThomas]

If DT's town, he's letting a personal grudge get in the way of this game.

Don't talk about oog information

[DoubtingThomas]

I am still waiting for your towncase, btw

[scum reading]

Meanwhile, scrolling through Shoshin’s ISO and all I can see is half of her iso being “what do you think about this, RC?” followed by naked votes without explanations

Also this is generally NAI playstyle from Shoshin
Though I’d like to see her go a little deeper than she has been lately

Yeah, I would like that as well, except she doesn’t do that. I don’t think a Volxen lynch is the greatest one. I would like some reads from shoshin and her view on the situation

[Shoshin]

SR, your perception of my posting is wrong. Why are you downplaying my contributions to the game?

[scum reading]

SR, your perception of my posting is wrong. Why are you downplaying my contributions to the game?

Not downplaying, it’s just that I’m not used to your kind of play style. I don’t know how you play and that is making me doubt myself. I’d like if you gave a full reads list, because most of your posts are questions and you aren’t explaining your thought process after you’ve asked those questions, so I’m paying more attention to you right now.I’d like more transparency coming from you

[DoubtingThomas]

Man if not explaning her own thought process was the only thing she did, maybe I wouldn't be tunneling her. But she doesn't even answer questions directed towards her because "it's her town meta"

[DoubtingThomas]

SR's locktown.

The scum are within DT, Clem, Vedith, and Fusco.

Still waiting how SR is locktown or if the definition of locktown changed

[scum reading]

I am used to townies picking on a person at a time, instead, you are focused way too much to scum hunt from a larger pool. I would narrow it down to a few people and scum hunt from there, but first day you accused Wazoo, Fus, me, DT, Clemency, even RC for a bit, Irrelephant but you didn’t really push someone with full conviction. From my experiences, townies tend to tunnel someone and try to scum hunt them, but you are the exact opposite. I come from a place of doubt since I wasn’t exposed to this kind of play style, but I’m willing to change my mind if you give me reasons to do so. I’d like Volxen to give his opinion on your slot as well, I am townreading him the most at the moment.

[Irrelephant11]

But like I’m not even asking you about this game in the particular way you are viewing it. I’m asking you to assume for a second that she has successfully narrowed scum down to 3/4 players. In that scenario, would you rather have her lynched or myself, who has spent most of my time sheeping her without even knowing her alignment?

The question isn’t shit if I have a reason to ask, thanks

You asked her if I still disliked her player. I said yes.

If I know for sure she is town and all you are doing is sheeping her, sure we should lynch you over shoshin mechanically.

The reality is she is probably scum here and I need to get her lynched.

The question is shit because it's giving a hypothetical situation that doesn't really apply to the reality.

But it does apply

I’m not asking “what if Shoshin were scumreading different players” or something
I’m saying that you’re objectively wrong about her being a bad town player if her reads are entirely right, regardless of whether or not she’s playing in a way that makes you like her and want to vote with her
If her reads are wrong, yeah she’s either bad town or scum.
Please do point out which 2-3 of vedith/clennis(?)/Fuscosco are town, so I can read Shoshin the way you are

[Shoshin]

SR, your perception of my posting is wrong. Why are you downplaying my contributions to the game?

Not downplaying, it’s just that I’m not used to your kind of play style. I don’t know how you play and that is making me doubt myself. I’d like if you gave a full reads list, because most of your posts are questions and you aren’t explaining your thought process after you’ve asked those questions, so I’m paying more attention to you right now.I’d like more transparency coming from you

I've made my reads & reasoning clear from the start. Look at all the scumhunting from D1:

Spoiler:

Why the naked votes, sans explanation?
Is it Irre's excitement that makes you think he's scum?
If not, what is?

Naked votes test reactions differently than non-naked ones.

Irrel's excitement means he's scum, yes.

He's also scum for stoking RC's paranoia about me when he knows better.

Oh, nice. RC's town, then. Good read on his part.

I think you're letting Irrel off too easy for scumreading me when he should know better. I understand why RC would get paranoid but Irrel should know that my play here wasn't anything like what he saw as scum.

Clemency is bad, agreed. DT, not sure. Wazoo, I got a bad vibe from initially but something he said later feels town to me.

VOTE: Fuscosco

If RC's town, this game's solved, though. That wagon on him was terrible, especially on the part of DT, Clemency, and Fusco.

I get the feeling DT is trying to gamesolve and not too worried about appearing scummy doing it.

I don't see him trying to solve anything. His analysis has nothing close to the nuance a townie's would. He's actively creating a negative environment, especially with the way he's interacted with RC, the way he's interacted with Irrel, and now the way he's trying to bait me.

I'd also add that DT is cluttering the game with tons of pointless posts that make it harder to reread for solving purposes. He's leading a wagon on RC who's the worst possible lynch on D1. And he's blatantly playing a WIFOM-based game since he's blatantly doing the opposite of what you think scum would do, even though what he's doing is completely unnatural for a townie to do.

RC's the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's going to be nominated. Why would we ever waste an odd-lynch on RC when we can do it on an even one? He's also the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's one of the strongest townies on this site, meaning it would be a massive windfall for the scum to lynch town him on D1 (especially since he won't have time to catch the scum for us, plus it causes his to become self-destructive), whereas saving a lynch on scum RC for D2 doesn't hurt town at all because we still have the opportunity to lynch his partners.

RC self-votes as both alignments when he's treated unfairly.

What should I do if DT flips town?

Lynch Clemency or Fusco.

DT/Fusco/Clemency are scum. Maybe I'm wrong on DT and just want him lynched, in which case it's still Fusco/Clemency. Fusco, for sure.

Because Fus would have let lynch on RC happen without even trying to develop a counterwagon. And that awkward interaction with Clemency that felt like scum/scum.

Oh yeah, demon could be scum too. The whole "I forgot about this game" line comes from scum too often to ignore.

I townread you.

"Let Auro swing" huh?

Ive never been shy about a D1 infolynch.
Or a nullscum lynch.
Or just throwing around pressure.


I have to read this all tomorrow and sort it out. I stopped reading most of RC/Auro/DT for the night.

toying with volxen scum, he seems less invested in this game than I would expect him to be and there's not really any smoking guns. still think the reasons given to scumread him were trash.

yuuuss

i'm done sorry this game is unpleasant for my sanity.

VOTE: RC

VOTE: RadCow

fuck that noise rc

Replace out like a man. or at least like a veteran townie would

I'm not playing the rc meta game. I've been out a few years and I have no clue how RC has developed.

But Im willing to fry mu null read who just AtEd

is rc l-1?

:/

VOTE: unvote

im not convinced, but Im still mobile and cant properly take notes

This is scum.

i confirmed my role two minutes ago and i've honest to god already forgotten

Same scum tell as demon. It's definitely one of these two or both.

Irrel shouldn't have stoked RC's paranoia about me. Irrel should have had me as null or town, not "ick."

I don't see why RC's townreading Wazoo.

I don't understand how someone like Wazoo townreads DT while scumreading me & RC.

And his scumhunting is super mechanical. Do you at any point feel like he's tried to sort me or RC?

Demon's scum.

Wazoo/Clemency/Demon is plausible, for sure. Wazoo could also just play like this. Reminds me of Gustavo.

Volxen's hope to play with town RC felt slightly townish. But I agree he's not town town.

Context, Auro. The problem is that there's a pattern of looking for options that aren't Clemency as evidenced by his vote on RC over Clemency and then by his attempt to build a counter wagon on me over Clemency (a wagon that clearly had the benefit of potentially attracting your vote away from Clemency given your recent posting). He's distancing from Clemency while opportunistically looking for ways to defend him.

I'd always lynch Fusco before I lynched Auro.

Look at Auro's "I prefer Demon but voting Clemency" bit.

Auro defending Volxen's inactivity feels pretty towny.

I prefer Fusco. Look how bad this is:

"Let Auro swing" huh?

Ive never been shy about a D1 infolynch.
Or a nullscum lynch.
Or just throwing around pressure.

Not scumhunting. And setting up potential mislynches.

toying with volxen scum, he seems less invested in this game than I would expect him to be and there's not really any smoking guns. still think the reasons given to scumread him were trash.

yuuuss

Agrees with RC. Seems like Fusco should townread RC. Except:

i'm done sorry this game is unpleasant for my sanity.

VOTE: RC

VOTE: RadCow

He votes RC in the next post. For reasons that have nothing to do with RC's alignment.

I'm not playing the rc meta game. I've been out a few years and I have no clue how RC has developed.

But Im willing to fry mu null read who just AtEd

It defies belief that someone who hasn't played mafia in years ("out a few years") pushes a policy lynch as town without even trying to sort the player they're pushing (notice the "null read"). This is scum jumping on the opportunity to set RC up for a mislynch without having to do any scumhunting while it happens.

Also, I still want to lynch Fusco unless he towns himself in the next few hours while he's at work.

I'm still waiting on answers to my questions from Wazoo. I don't get why he's ignoring some while answering others. It's like he doesn't want me to townread him.

VOTE: Fusco

I can't distinguish whether Wazoo's terribleness means he's bad town or bad scum. How are you distinguishing?

Fusco isn't scumhunting despite presenting himself as reasonable, and he jumped on the opportunity to push an easy mislynch on RC.

DT's scum. He shouldn't be scumreading me at this point.

VOTE: Clemency

It's also besides the point since your play here is so different from your town play. And your reasons for scumreading RC & me are actually terrible, and if you were town you would have moved off us already.

Contrary to his claim, he's not good pre-flip. But I agree that he's better than he's been this game. Tunneling us the way he has doesn't square at all with his constant warnings as town against certainty on D1.

Shoshin what scummy things have I done THIS game?

Scumreading me for things that aren't scummy. Scumreading RC for things that aren't scummy. Continuing to scumread me/RC despite having all your concerns addressed. Lack of fluidity in your reads. Lack of any attempt to consider other possibilities. Lack of questioning. Lack of new reads after you decided to scumread me/RC. Lack of any attempt to find third scum. Lack of development in your townreads. Internal inconsistency when it comes to scumreading me/RC while townreading Irrelephant/DT. Awkward interaction with DT/Clemency. Awkward phrasing, especially when changing votes. Opportunistic voting patterns. Unnatural dumb tells. Ignoring my questions for days. Repeatedly misrepresenting me/RC. Pretending meta isn't relevant.

You sound really unmotivated to find the scum.

Fuck that, Irrelephant. I'm saying he sounds unmotivated because he said he's "not looking forward to reading" when he's intentionally staying in this game instead of replacing out. How isn't that scummy?

Even when I'm busy I make more contributions than Fusco has in the past four days, Irrelephant. Work isn't an excuse to say you're not looking forward to reading the game.

All I’m saying is in the case that he’s town he won’t be showing it any time soon if you are criticizing him as he tries to re enter the thread

I'm not "criticizing" his play, I'm doing my best to read his alignment based on what he's posted. He's not giving me much to work with so I have to read what's there. His lack of scumhunting is scummy. His lack of motivation to scumhunt is scummy. And his vote on RC earlier was scummy. How the hell are you townreading this, Irrel?

And if you look at D2, I've already said that the scum are likely within the group of DT, Clemency, Vedith, and Fusco. In other words, the same reads I've had since D1.

And now, compare my posts with Volx or Irrel. You'll find as much or more content in my posting than theirs. They might use more words but that reflects on their wordiness, not the actual content.

[Shoshin]

I am used to townies picking on a person at a time, instead, you are focused way too much to scum hunt from a larger pool. I would narrow it down to a few people and scum hunt from there, but first day you accused Wazoo, Fus, me, DT, Clemency, even RC for a bit, Irrelephant but you didn’t really push someone with full conviction. From my experiences, townies tend to tunnel someone and try to scum hunt them, but you are the exact opposite. I come from a place of doubt since I wasn’t exposed to this kind of play style, but I’m willing to change my mind if you give me reasons to do so. I’d like Volxen to give his opinion on your slot as well, I am townreading him the most at the moment.

This is my most recently completed town game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=78267

You'll see notice the exact same approach in that game as the approach I've taken in this game. I don't need to find all the scum as long as I find enough townies to win the game.

[scum reading]

Unvoting until I review the game

UNVOTE:

[Shoshin]

A town case:

1. Meta

As a matter of comparison, here's my my most recent scum game (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970). It doesn't take a lot to see the differences there.

My priority as scum was to manipulate the most influential townies in the game (e.g. Irrel, the worst, Nauci, etc.) into townreading me. I did this by actively townreading them as quickly as possible, questioning them for not townreading me, and exclusively attacking players who questioned my towniness. I normalized my towniness as quickly as possible so that I eventually became the most townread player in the game. I was unlynchable at all points of that game.

In short, I behaved in ways that I predicted would get me townread. I never alienated anyone. I didn't take risks. I didn't use WIFOM. I played a simple game of manipulation.

In this game, I didn't try manipulating the most influential players into townreading me. On the contrary, I spent the early parts of this game trying to sort the strongest scum players: Irrel, Auro, & RC. Rather than manipulate these players into townreading me, I relentlessly tested their reactions while trying to sort. I knew this wouldn't help me get townread but I thought sorting these players ASAP was more important than having them townread me, at least in the short term.

a. Irrel

I voted Irrel for reasons that I knew would alienate a number of players, especially the bit about how he prefers scum. I was testing reactions so that I could sort Irrel as well as others around him.

Irrel knows that I know he prefers scum, so I knew Irrel would understand why I was voting him, at least to some extent. I predicted that town Irrel wouldn't let paranoia fester about me -- he's clear up my vote for those who didn't understand -- whereas scum Irrel would let the paranoia fester to potentially set up my mislynch.

This is how I sort Irrel in most of my games (e.g. is he allowing paranoia to fester when he could easily clear it up based on his meta knowledge?). And I can point to previous town games where I've townread Irrel based on the way he prevents paranoia from festering, so if you need further meta evidence that this is how I approach sorting Irrelephant (with 100% accuracy so far over multiple games), that can be provided as well.

As scum, I never approach the game by testing reactions because it's too risky. There's no reason for me to unnecessarily attract suspicion of others (including Irrel), or to create a situation where paranoia about me could arise in the first place, when I easily could have easily manipulated Irrel into townreading without attracting any suspicion or doing any actual scumhunting.

If I were scum, it would have been very easy for me to say nothing about Irrel's alignment, or to townread him. The fact I didn't do those things is strongly town indicative for me.

b. Auro

I slightly ignored Auro's questioning at the start of this game to test his reactions. He doesn't know me so I expected to receive flak from him. I also knew his questions would eventually be cleared up without any problem, and I believed town Auro would quickly reevaluate my alignment if he were to scumread me at first.

As a result of my test, Auro engaged a strong line of questioning on me that was one of the towniest things in the game. His push was especially towny because he felt so unconcerned about addressing my concerns about him & almost exclusively focused on trying to understand my thought process. His lack of self-concern in that push is part of why I'm locktown on Auro.

I don't engage this sort of subtle testing as scum because it unnecessarily attracts suspicion without any upside. Auro didn't leave that conversation townreading. On the contrary, he left it with lots of paranoia about my slot, paranoia that I let sit for the moment because again I wasn't worried about my appearance. The upside of my initial play around Auro is that I was able to townread one of the strongest scum players in the game.

This is something I exclusively do as town, not as scum. I never alienate a player like Auro as scum, especially when I predict that Auro would push me in precisely the way he did. My goal as scum isn't to be pushed because, again, I don't take risks as scum. I do things that have predictable responses (from my perspective), and those predicted responses are myself being townread.

c. RC

This is the biggest one. I never vote or push RC in any manner on D1 if I'm scum, straight-up never. I keep calling him town until LYLO. This is the biggest town tell for me, although you probably won't understand it if you don't know our history.

If I were scum, I relentlessly defend RC throughout the game because doing so causes RC to keep me alive. RC struggles with surviving, so if there's someone keeping him alive, he'll keep that person alive even if the player might be scum. And, in my case, it's especially the case because RC really really doesn't want to mislynch me. He'd feel too bad about it. As long as I defend RC, RC never pushes my lynch unless he's absolutely certain I'm scum, meaning he keeps me alive until LYLO.

As far as I'm concerned, my win condition as scum against RC is bringing him to LYLO and then mislynching him with the argument that he's godtier scum who got inside my head. I don't see myself losing in this circumstance with this player list, especially given Irrel's paranoia of scum RC. Plus, I think Irrel would prefer losing to scum me over scum RC. This would be much easier than trying to fake genuine attempts to actually sort RC, which as you've seen in this game, don't necessarily cause RC to townread me.

--

There's another massive difference between my play here and my play as scum: the way I interacted with Wazoo.

As scum, I don't keep interacting with a known mislynch, continuously trying to sort them. Look at how I interact with the mislynches in Starcraft. I occasionally made cases and then ignored the lynches until they died. I didn't show any genuine interest in their thought process, nor did I give them any chances to prove to me they were town.

But in this game, I kept trying to give Wazoo a chance. I read through his games (something I'm very unlikely to do as scum), kept trying to understand his reasoning, rereading this game to see if what he was saying made any sense. I never do this unnecessary stuff as scum, especially since I'd be worried that the more I interacted with Wazoo, the more I'd betray my informed perspective about his alignment.

3. Nominations

If I were scum in this game, I never nominate myself.

For starters, RC replaced out of the game calling me scum, so if I were actually scum, I would have been scared shitless that the townies would sheep him. I'd especially be worried about it because of how much flak I received on D1 from multiple players:

DT votes me regardless of what happens.

Fusco votes me because I called him scum.

SR votes me because I called explanations scummy and because he's misreading me based on stylistic differences (as well just mistaking wordiness for content when that's not the case).

Irrel votes me because he sheeps obvtown RC.

Auro votes me because I potentially alienated him yesterday.

Clemency votes me because he's a troll who maybe sheeps RC.

RC's replacement votes me because he's sheeping RC.

You get the point. If I'm scum, why would I take this risk? What's the upside? Do I suddenly become confirmed if I survive the nomination phase? No, there's no upside. I never take this risk as scum.

That said, even if I were to nominate myself as scum, I do so only with players who I reasonably could survive against. In other words, I'm not putting myself against Irrel/Volx. That's like flipping a coin. It's suicide as scum, something I'd never do.

Who do I take with me if I'm scum? I take the townie from the group of DT, Clemency, Fusco, Vedith. I might take SR. I might take one of Irrel/Volx but not both. I create an environment where my chances of survival are better than just flipping a coin.

Again, I don't play a WIFOM game as scum. And my scum meta bears that out. I win games as scum by taking minimal risks while manipulating players into townreading me with strong day play. If I'm scum in this game, I never nominate myself. It's an extraordinary risk with no reward.

[Irrelephant11]

Man it’s such a weird feeling how well you can predict things about me
Like I’ve never even thought twice about which of you/RC I’d rather lose to as scum but without you saying something about it you’re probably right that’s how that would go

Anyway Shoshin’s town
Sorry I paranoia’d you for so long

[Alonzo]

VOTE: Volxen

[volxen]

VOTE: Volxen

[Vedith]

Scum giving up thinking that was the hammer...?

[ejjinami]

bumpity

[ejjinami]

bump