Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[Shoshin]

VOTE: DT

[Shoshin]

VOTE: scum reading

[Shoshin]

Fuck Volx.

I'm leaving my vote on SR.

If Volx wants to waste our time talking about DT today, I'm ignoring it.

[scum reading]

I will post more later on how I think DoubtingThomas is scum regardless of Scumreading's alignment, even if I reduce the number of assumptions that I initially made.

That being said, @Scumreading are you outright refusing to vote for DoubtingThomas today?

Volx, lynching Shoshin is the play here. This IS the safest lynch. Depending on the nominees tomorrow I'll be able to confirm my reads on DT and Auro.

Right now, there's no reason on why I would vote DT. He's done nothing this game phase and it is hard sorting him as it is. I am ten times more confident in a Shoshin lynch and there's no reason to abstain that. This is a SvT and it would make no sense for me to drop this. Shoshin is lockscum and she's the safest lynch, at least for me. I can tell it's hard for people to sort our roles, but the game play until now should give you indications to our alignments. This battle WILL have to take place regardless if we lynch another scum now, but this is, once again, the safest option for me. She's pushing my mislynch today based on Vedith's meta read which was my activity, she doesn't have a case on me, I've made a case on her that she completely disregarded and said I won't comment on it, yet when chennis says "Scum reading, you should make a case on Shoshin", Shoshin said "

If he were to make a case

, I'd point out any rhetorical thoughts", but she didn't. She saw my case . She ignored it and she didn't want to bring the fact that I've made a case on her so that chennis will be inclined to vote me. That's scum af. She's trying to pressure people into voting me, like chennisden, which is the easiest to persuade. She won't try to make you or Alonzo vote me because you guys probably won't and she knows that. She just needs chennis to place his vote and that's gg.

[Shoshin]

Volx, you need to question SR on why he won't vote for Xtox.

[Shoshin]

Alonzo, I recommend you question SR on why he won't vote Xtox as well.

[Shoshin]

Depending on the nominees tomorrow I'll be able to confirm my reads on DT and Auro.

It's very strange that SR isn't 100% scum on Auro/Xtox.

[DoubtingThomas]

hello.

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin, i thought you wanted to talk to me?

[Shoshin]

If you think I'm scum, I'd like to know why so that I can address your concerns.

If you think I'm town, I'd like you to vote SR.

[DoubtingThomas]

wait, why did you vote me again?

[DoubtingThomas]

also why did you vote vedith of chen?

[DoubtingThomas]

my scum read on you has been pretty self-explanatory throughout the game.

it's always possible that my reads are quite wrong and perhaps i am tunneling on you PARTLY because of OOG reason.

I really do hate the fact that I've tried to engage you constantly over multiple times and bulk of the responses i've gotten is that you are not going to answer because that's your 'town meta'.

I don't see much towniness in you self casing yourself over and over again. You have been a driving force in lynching all townies so far. You have been getting all the lynches you have wanted throughout the game so far to be all wrong, and then now you vote scum reading first because you were suddenly out of nowhere positive that 1) your reads that have showed 0% accuracy this game is correct 2) on scum reading, who you town read

STRONGLY

.

what's annoying is that i asked you why you 'lock town'ed scum reading yesterday, only to be ignored three times. and you start the day off voting scum reading.

i think that's the worst part about your iso so far

[Shoshin]

Okay, DT. I'll try to address your concerns & explain why I'm town. In the process, I'd like you to respond to my questions as well.

1. You know for a fact that ignoring questions is NAI for me so that's not a valid concern. Why are you allowing this to impact your read when you know it's NAI? Can you point me to an example of a town game where you scum read someone for something you knew to be NAI?

2. You say I've been town casing myself too much.

On this point, I want to make sure you understand that I've only defended myself in situations where I've been close to getting lynched, specifically during nomination phases when I've been forced to argue that I'm townier than other players who are likely town. I haven't had to defend myself at all during regular day phases & thus haven't. What's scummy about this? I'm unable to address this concern unless you explain why you think it's scummy.

3. You say I'm scummy because I've been wrong. That's the BoP fallacy. I'd like to address this concern in three ways.

First, I want you to understand that I've mislynched less than it seems in large part because of the nomination phases. I was responsible for mislynching Wazoo & Fusco but I don't think it's fair to say I'm responsible for mislynching Irrelephant or Vedith when options were limited by the scum themselves. After all, both Irrelephant & Vedith voted themselves. I don't think it's fair to say I'm responsible for those mislynches, especially the mislynch on Irrelephant since I called him likely town as he went down.

Second, I'm not the only player who voted these players. The relevant consideration here is whether I'm scummier than SR, because from your perspective at least one of us is scum. SR voted all these players as well. Is it fair to exclusively hold me responsible for these mislynches when SR voted these players as well? I don't think so.

Third, I mislynch much more than people realize. In fact, I can point you to a game where I exclusively led mislynches the whole game until town lost (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=77661). As such, I don't think it's fair to apply BoP to me when I'm not perfect & often lead mislynches as town. Can you please explain why you're holding me to such a high standard when you know I'm prone to mislynching?

4. You say I'm scummy for changing my read on SR.

I don't think that's scummy so please explain why you think reevaluating reads is scummy. I reevaluate the game based on new information, and in particular Vedith's flip changed everything for me. Yesterday, SR betrayed an informed perspective about Vedith's flip that never comes from town & I said as much yesterday when I realized SR might be scum over Vedith. I can point you to the specific posts that betray this perspective & explain exactly why it shows that SR's scum if you need more clarification. Either way, I'd like you to explain why you think changing reads is scummy.

5. You say I'm scummy because you don't understand why I was locktown on SR. To be clear, failing to understand why someone believes something isn't reason to call that person scummy. That said, I'll explain why I called SR locktown.

First, I call players locktown even though what I mean is likely town. The "locktown" language doesn't mean it's a "lock." It's a way of speaking.

Second, I called SR likely town because he offered tons of analysis on D1, he didn't seem phased at all by me or RC calling him scummy, he seemed to be reevaluating reads fluidly in ways that isn't easy for scum to fake, he almost replaced out the game but stayed in & I mistakenly read that as town, and finally because RC called him town & I tend to trust RC's townreads. Was I wrong about SR? Yes. He's scum & I know this now. He's competent scum in that he knows how to fake lots of town-like analysis but at the end of the day he's scum & that became clear with Vedith's flip.

6. You say I'm scummy because I was confident in voting SR. As explained above, I was confident in voting SR because of Vedith's flip. Yes, I was wrong on two major lynches in this game but that doesn't mean I don't trust myself to eventually get things right. I have confidence in my reads over the reads of anyone else in this game & sometimes it takes a few mislynches to get on the right track.

7. You know for a fact that I was nominated twice in a row. Can you please explain why you think scum me would take that risk even though I almost got lynched the first time?

8. What's your read on SR? You've said a lot about me but nothing about SR & I find that concerning. What do you think of the fact that SR refuses to vote for Xtox even though from SR's perspective Xtox is confirmed scum? Doesn't that give you some insight that maybe SR's faking all of this?

[Shoshin]

also why did you vote vedith of chen?

If you're asking why I voted either of Vedith/Chen, it's because I had no choice but to vote them or myself.

If you're asking why Vedith over Chen, it's because Volx insisted on Vedith over Chen & because Vedith's flip provided the most amount of information about SR's alignment.

I started to suspect both were town the moment they were nominated but there's not much I can do to stop a mislynch during a nomination phase that limits who you're able to lynch.

[volxen]

@Scumreading, Shoshin brings up a correct point --

if you are town, BOTH Shoshin AND Xtox/Auro are 100% confirmed scum from your point of view

.

If you and Xtox/Auro were both town, you would have been quickhammered long ago.
If you and Shoshin were both town, you would have been quickhammered long ago.

If you are town then 2/3 of the scumteam is already 100% confirmed to you just based on lylo votes

. Why are you talking as if you still need to sort Auro/Xtox while simultaneously pushing for Shoshin's lynch? Why are you not equally agreeable to pushing for Xtox/Auro's lynch?

The reality of the matter is that you are currently engaged in two different 1vs1's, Scumreading vs Shoshin and Scumreading vs Xtox/Auro.

[Shoshin]

wait, why did you vote me again?

I came into today voting you because my initial read on the game after Vedith's flip was you/SR as scum & I assumed you'd vote me no matter what. I suspect you because you disappeared from the game after D1 in ways that isn't normal for town you & and you've been pushing my mislynch all game without much deeper thought about my alignment other than saying I'm scum for things that you know are NAI.

That said, I realized SR was a higher probability lynch based on his slip yesterday & the fact that you were playing to your town meta in the earliest parts of the game when you argued with RC & the fact that both of you have been underwhelming after D1 but SR's been sheeping all the mislynches while you haven't.

[Shoshin]

I can't wait until SR finds himself in a third 1v1.

[Shoshin]

What is keeping you from voting SR, Volx?

[volxen]

What is keeping you from voting SR, Volx?

I want to see what Alonzo wants to do since I consider him locktown. Also I want Scumreading to respond to me.

[volxen]

Also @Shoshin, If you are town, then the only scumteam combination that doesn't contain DoubtingThomas would be Xtox/Chennisden/Scumreading, based on me being town and having Alonzo as locktown.

I don't think that's too probable, as it would mean that Xtox/Auro tried to actively bus both of his partners. For example, on day four Auro had a strong preference of lynching Chennisden over Vedith and voted for him, and he almost got lynched. Auro also made this post at the beginning of day five:

Way past my bedtime. I'll be back in the morning.

I think Chen is the correct lynch, and if not, SR

. Vedith's reads were off.

The pool of scummy players has been {DoubtingThomas, Chennisden, Scumreading}. It isn't like scum!Auro at all to default to bussing his partners without even trying to the test the waters for a DoubtingThomas mislynch first. He made that post before you voted for Scumreading and started your 1vs1 against him. Auro has told me on Discord that he strongly dislikes bussing, and he has only bussed in one out of his six or seven scumgames.

If anything I think that Xtox/DoubtingThomas/Scumreading is a far, far more likely scumteam compared to Xtox/Chennisden/Scumreading. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?

[volxen]

looks like auros done the good work for me
i mean ive seen scum dawdle on the hammers before but its been like 2 days lets hurry it up if so

i instinctually wanna say everyone on the nom yesterday was town
at a glance i wouldnt expect volxen to be scum

making the solve sr/dt/alonzo

probably too easy tho

Your predecessor Auro had Alonzo as 100% locktown, and that is the general consensus with respect to Alonzo's slot. Is there a particular reason why you disagree with your predecessor and think that Alonzo is scum?

[volxen]

@Alonzo, Are you wanting me to start a 1vs1 against DoubtingThomas by voting for him? Or do you feel confident in your solve between {Shoshin, Scumreading}? In any case I would need your support on DoubtingThomas, so I won't vote for him unless that's the route that you want to go.

[DoubtingThomas]

Okay, DT. I'll try to address your concerns & explain why I'm town. In the process, I'd like you to respond to my questions as well.

1. You know for a fact that ignoring questions is NAI for me so that's not a valid concern. Why are you allowing this to impact your read when you know it's NAI? Can you point me to an example of a town game where you scum read someone for something you knew to be NAI?

This is not really a question I want to treat. I don't really know you at all. You are constantly telling me this, and I doubt anyone tries to blatantly lie in a game, but I also do not like taking what someone says about theirselves in a game of mafia as the bible. Also, this is not a main reason for why I think you are scum. It is part of the reason why I think you are being uncooperative and provocative on purpose which I associate as a scum activity. I haven't really seen towns blatantly refuse to answer simple questions over and over again, and for their sole reason of doing this to be because "it's their town meta". I've actually seen scums try to be unpleasant on purpose to exploit the natural tendency for people to think, "there's no way they'd do that as scum". This is your 'town meta' so you say, but it doesn't mean you don't do this as scum ever, and I do not know the meta for either of your alignment. The reason why this comes up over and over again is because it's anti town and I NATURALLY associate it as something I want to lynch no matter what. Like I don't even care if it's an IC slot if they constnatly try to be unpleasant.

I personally think any town person should try to talk to me and answer my questions once we have went through a hugh quarrel, you either try to kill me and deathtunnel me, or town read me but refuse to work with me. Your attitude towards me seems a little bit in the middle ground. Sure you have tried to vote me, but you never really tried to extensively start a wagon for me which is concerning. I usually think scum naturally try to 'compromise', sometimes unconsciously. Town!you either believes I am lockscum ->tries to kill me. or believes I am a misguided town -> gets super annoyed at my incompetency and just ignores me for the whole game. Your treatment of me this whole games has been... in an awkward middle ground, imo -- especially this mylo phase. which is REALLY concerning. i don't think you really scum read me. You just want to all of a sudden buddy buddy me to vote scum reading with you to win. that's the vibe i am actually getting atm wrt this day phase.

2. You say I've been town casing myself too much.

On this point, I want to make sure you understand that I've only defended myself in situations where I've been close to getting lynched, specifically during nomination phases when I've been forced to argue that I'm townier than other players who are likely town. I haven't had to defend myself at all during regular day phases & thus haven't. What's scummy about this? I'm unable to address this concern unless you explain why you think it's scummy.

This point doesn't make you scum. I just pointed this out to say that.. I don't quite buy the entire thing and you shouldn't really expect me to buy the whole thing

3. You say I'm scummy because I've been wrong. That's the BoP fallacy. I'd like to address this concern in three ways.

First, I want you to understand that I've mislynched less than it seems in large part because of the nomination phases. I was responsible for mislynching Wazoo & Fusco but I don't think it's fair to say I'm responsible for mislynching Irrelephant or Vedith when options were limited by the scum themselves. After all, both Irrelephant & Vedith voted themselves. I don't think it's fair to say I'm responsible for those mislynches, especially the mislynch on Irrelephant since I called him likely town as he went down.

Second, I'm not the only player who voted these players. The relevant consideration here is whether I'm scummier than SR, because from your perspective at least one of us is scum. SR voted all these players as well. Is it fair to exclusively hold me responsible for these mislynches when SR voted these players as well? I don't think so.

Third, I mislynch much more than people realize. In fact, I can point you to a game where I exclusively led mislynches the whole game until town lost (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=77661). As such, I don't think it's fair to apply BoP to me when I'm not perfect & often lead mislynches as town. Can you please explain why you're holding me to such a high standard when you know I'm prone to mislynching?

This point I have a bigger problem with. First of all, you mention that you've only been responsible for 2 mislynches because in other two scenarios, scums have limited lynch options. Well, in other words, you have 2/2, or 100% mislynch rate when you have 100% of the freedom. As for me, I town read wazoo. It's been a while, but I believe I was having a town lean vibe from fusco -- definitely wouldn't have lynched him over some other people. We've had irrel and vedith kind of sacrifice themselves, at the condition of sheeping them (at least for vedith). Unlike those two towns, you have been more fixated and focused on surviving. You were never willing to 'sacrifice' for town. I mean, you are town, but that doesn't mean your game should be focused on surviving. Sometimes if you are having a subpar game, you dying might actually benefit town. Or if you want to make a statement, you might wanna choose to die. But I just have a feeling where you just cared about surviving, rather than finding scums = which is often >rand scum mindset.

The point I was also trying to make wasn't, "YOU MISTLYNCHED EVERYONE! YOU ARE SCUM!" It was more like, you have been constantly wrong on EVERY lynch you've been a part of, even if you wanna belittle it and say it was only "two mislynches", even myself, who has been having a pretty good read this game isn't confident enough to snap vote. You did. Despite wrongly reading a lot of people this game, including me (because I am town). I kinda don't understand your confidence. You weren't scared of being wrong on SR, which you have been constantly wrong over and over again? I find it hard to believe that a townie in your position to make an initiative, especially a correct one, with that confidence. This is the main thing that makes you look scummy. You have a confidence in your read that doesn't make sense as a townie right now.

4. You say I'm scummy for changing my read on SR.

I don't think that's scummy so please explain why you think reevaluating reads is scummy. I reevaluate the game based on new information, and in particular Vedith's flip changed everything for me. Yesterday, SR betrayed an informed perspective about Vedith's flip that never comes from town & I said as much yesterday when I realized SR might be scum over Vedith. I can point you to the specific posts that betray this perspective & explain exactly why it shows that SR's scum if you need more clarification. Either way, I'd like you to explain why you think changing reads is scummy.

5. You say I'm scummy because you don't understand why I was locktown on SR. To be clear, failing to understand why someone believes something isn't reason to call that person scummy. That said, I'll explain why I called SR locktown.

First, I call players locktown even though what I mean is likely town. The "locktown" language doesn't mean it's a "lock." It's a way of speaking.

Second, I called SR likely town because he offered tons of analysis on D1, he didn't seem phased at all by me or RC calling him scummy, he seemed to be reevaluating reads fluidly in ways that isn't easy for scum to fake, he almost replaced out the game but stayed in & I mistakenly read that as town, and finally because RC called him town & I tend to trust RC's townreads. Was I wrong about SR? Yes. He's scum & I know this now. He's competent scum in that he knows how to fake lots of town-like analysis but at the end of the day he's scum & that became clear with Vedith's flip.

I feel like you are constantly not getting the points I was making in my post, and I don't think they were difficult points to get, so I am starting to be skeptical that you are being thick on purpose (please excuse my language). I am not calling you scummy because you reevaluate reads. I am calling you scummy because the way you handled and reacted to my pressure to figure out and understand your read (calling scum reading locktown but refusing to answer yesterday) was not townie, furthermore, today, you engaged the thread with a vote on scum reading OUT of the blue.

To me, it seemed like you were giving half-assed town read on scum reading but still using strong language like "lock town". When I wanted to confront you about this, you ignored me (like always). Then, once a situation (today) comes up where you can win by just having one more mislynch, you go full ham and thunderdome scum reading.

You said after Vedith's flip, you were suddenly sure of scum reading being scum? I don't get this progression. See, you say "reevaluation" but I just see a jump from locktown to hardcore scum because Vedith flipped. And you are even using his reads to try to push scum reading, which is palpable because vedith wanted you to be lynched, right?

Anyhow, could you explain why and how your read on scumreading changed from town to the point that you wanted to dome him? The turnaround of the situation looks so dramatic that I dont know if towns can make these kind of reevaluations., tbh

6. You say I'm scummy because I was confident in voting SR. As explained above, I was confident in voting SR because of Vedith's flip. Yes, I was wrong on two major lynches in this game but that doesn't mean I don't trust myself to eventually get things right. I have confidence in my reads over the reads of anyone else in this game & sometimes it takes a few mislynches to get on the right track.

Kind of explained in #3. MAYBE it's like a philosophical difference, but you have essentially 0% accuracy right now on your reads. The sort of confidence on SR is something I don't get. I think, mathematically, the vote you've pulled is more likely to come from a scum who just needs to mislynch. Irrel called you a strong town. I tend to associate strong towns with someone who works with town as a whole. Even the best mafia players do not have 100% read. They work with other players and formulate town core. I feel like your pushes throughout the game has constantly been full of scum agenda. Not losing confidence doesn't make you scum, necessarily, but in your position, I just think towns, especially as Irrel vouched, a good town would try to communicate with others and try to solve the game. But what have you done this game? Pretty much drive all the mislynches, attack me and vedith (flipped town), etc.

7. You know for a fact that I was nominated twice in a row. Can you please explain why you think scum me would take that risk even though I almost got lynched the first time?

Just wifom. I would nominate myself two times in a row just to make this point. Hey look I am so townie!

8. What's your read on SR? You've said a lot about me but nothing about SR & I find that concerning. What do you think of the fact that SR refuses to vote for Xtox even though from SR's perspective Xtox is confirmed scum? Doesn't that give you some insight that maybe SR's faking all of this?

You and SR are never w/w. After writing this post, I am starting to (perhaps confbias) believe more and more that the way you are handling this push --once again, like all your other pushes-- doesn't really come from town and that fact alone makes scum reading town

Another question, you called scum reading's d1 game really townie and that he's a comptent scum. The way he's playing right now is nowhere near a competent scum. He's not even realizing that auro+you are always a scum team in his world. Do you really think he's a competent scum?

I really want you to describe the transition of progression from town to scum you've had on scum reading. I don't see it. I think this push on scum reading has come in too much of an opportune moment. A really absurd miracle if it's a town push. that's where I am at right now

[DoubtingThomas]

what's this one versus one about me, volxen