Newbie 1926: Baseball (Game Over)

[u r a person 2]

what about you, duck? what do you think about lavender

[Lavender]

I'm also going to be explaining my reasoning a bit more than usual for everyone's sake. I'm serious when I said U2's scum. His suggestion that I'm scum while voting someone else was awful, & I'm skeptical that he'd completely ignore my self-vote as town. I'd appreciate if all of you responded to this read with your thoughts.

It didn't seem all that suspicious to me, since the self-vote was slightly strange to me. That just might be my lack of experience though.

[Lavender]

UNVOTE:

@Lavender, mind if I quiz you on this?

Oh, never mind I saw RVS.

Firstly thanks for having a look a the theory brass posted--hope it was insightful!

Did you not feel the need to participate in rvs? Why/why not? Did you trust what shoshin, whig, urap2 and I were doing?

ya rvs

lot's of people don't like it

I get a lot of my best reads from it

How do you feel about voting marcus or shoshin rn?

Hm, atm they just seem like they are gathering reactions, so I don't feel anything particular

Did you like any of our reactions more than others? what were your reactions towards:
- Shoshin's self-vote?
- urap2 considering me town but being less sure on shoshin?
- whig's contributions so far?
- Marcus' opening post?

If you don't have feelings on some of these that's fine. Even if it's just a gut feeling or a question, every bit helps!

First question, well I'm not sure how to do rvs well or in a way that is good. Basically, I don't want to get in the way.
My reactions for those are:
Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.

[the worst]

Hmm ok. Based on that if you had to make a guess, who do you think is town?--is anyone scummy in your opinion?

[Marcus325]

UNVOTE:

@Lavender, mind if I quiz you on this?

Oh, never mind I saw RVS.

Firstly thanks for having a look a the theory brass posted--hope it was insightful!

Did you not feel the need to participate in rvs? Why/why not? Did you trust what shoshin, whig, urap2 and I were doing?

ya rvs

Wow things are moving faster than I expected lol

My suggestion at the start was purely a joke I was just joining in on the ribbing tw and sho were doing.

lot's of people don't like it

I get a lot of my best reads from it

How do you feel about voting marcus or shoshin rn?

Hm, atm they just seem like they are gathering reactions, so I don't feel anything particular

Did you like any of our reactions more than others? what were your reactions towards:
- Shoshin's self-vote?
- urap2 considering me town but being less sure on shoshin?
- whig's contributions so far?
- Marcus' opening post?

If you don't have feelings on some of these that's fine. Even if it's just a gut feeling or a question, every bit helps!

First question, well I'm not sure how to do rvs well or in a way that is good. Basically, I don't want to get in the way.
My reactions for those are:
Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.

[Lavender]

If I made a guess, then Whig, since they seem okay and trying to contribute. Imo Shoshin is slightly scummy only because of the self-vote, I don't think town would self-vote, but I might be wrong.

[Marcus325]

Ok dont know what happened there lol

What I meant to post with the above quote:
Wow things are moving faster than expected!

My fist comment was a joke i was simply joining in on the ribbing tw and sho were doing

[Marcus325]

If I made a guess, then Whig, since they seem okay and trying to contribute. Imo Shoshin is slightly scummy only because of the self-vote, I don't think town would self-vote, but I might be wrong.

I dont believe scum would want to put themselves in the spotlight like that otherwise but i don't know im only new at this lol

[Lavender]

If I made a guess, then Whig, since they seem okay and trying to contribute. Imo Shoshin is slightly scummy only because of the self-vote, I don't think town would self-vote, but I might be wrong.

I dont believe scum would want to put themselves in the spotlight like that otherwise but i don't know im only new at this lol

That's true I guess, I am also new at this, so let's try our best and learn right?

[the worst]

Marcus, I wondered if you might be someone I know irl/offsite or something.

Keep going with what you're thinking. Don't worry about new, at least one of us experienced (aka. old grumpy) people is guaranteed to be town so you'll get some constructive feedback d1.

[the worst]

Actually Marc/Lav I like the gooey brain thoughts both of you have offered so far. Keep it up

[Godmid]

Hello everyone. I wasn't expecting to find myself in a game so suddenly and I'm going to bed soon, so I'm not going to be able to post much tonight. However, I do want to check in at the very least.

Before I get off, I'll comment on Shoshin since she seems to be the main focus currently. Shoshin's self-vote at the beginning of the game wasn't something that I thought anything of. If someone wants to make an argument as to why this is indeed suspicious, go for it, but I don't see any connection between a self-vote and being mafia. Now, having said that, the defense she gives seems more significant...

Why is self-voting a town tell for you?

I wouldn't self-vote as scum because I wouldn't want newbies to get the idea that self-voting is scummy or harmful. I self-voted specifically to show them that it's NAI & harmless. I've been making a big deal about this lately in other games & the mafia discussion forums.

If Shoshin is telling the truth here about strongly believing that self-voting is NAI and she is trying to push for this opinion, it makes a lot of sense that she would be less willing to do it as scum in a newb game since it would likely influence the opinions of newer players against her own position. As such, if this is the case, the two possibilities are that either Shoshin is town and that she is attempting to use her personal meta as a way of clearing herself, or she is mafia and she is willing to influence the opinion of newer players in a way that she believes to be detrimental to good play.

Both of these possibilities seem quite dirty (using personal meta to clear self vs encouraging a belief that she sees as harmful).

@Shoshin, do you think that this is a fair assessment? If not, why?


Anyways, I'm getting off now. I'll give myself an avatar tomorrow so I'm easier to tell apart.

Night.

[the worst]

I'll let Shoshin do the bulk of the replying here and I do have another opinion that I won't go into til she has but -- for the time being -- if a player were presenting site meta in a way that was manipulative I'd bite them regardless of alignment. Duck teeth hurt dude.

[Marcus325]

i believe you, duckling!

I know I'm dragging this from a long way back but care to explain why?

[Robotnick2]

Man you are literally

the worst

Okay now that's out the way
Hey team. Turns out people tend to be asleep at 1.30am, so if you start a game then, don't expect people on the

better

other side of the pond to be around for the top of day 1.

@Lavendar,

My reactions for those are:
Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.

You gave three slightly reasoned arguments for your reads here but nothing for urap2 - why?

@the worst

good news
all 3 of us + Whig are town

At this point, Whig had very little content - why state he's town here? what influenced that read?

[Shoshin]

If Shoshin is telling the truth here about strongly believing that self-voting is NAI and she is trying to push for this opinion, it makes a lot of sense that she would be less willing to do it as scum in a newb game since it would likely influence the opinions of newer players against her own position. As such, if this is the case, the two possibilities are that either Shoshin is town and that she is attempting to use her personal meta as a way of clearing herself, or she is mafia and she is willing to influence the opinion of newer players in a way that she believes to be detrimental to good play.

Both of these possibilities seem quite dirty (using personal meta to clear self vs encouraging a belief that she sees as harmful).

@Shoshin, do you think that this is a fair assessment? If not, why?

I think it's okay to consider the possibility that I'm scum as long as you keep your focus on what's probable over what's possible. I don't think using personal meta is "dirty" & I encourage everyone to use it. Why do you think it's "dirty"? What's your experience with mafia?

[Shoshin]

Robot, do you have any thoughts/reads of your own so far?

[Lavender]

Man you are literally

the worst

@Lavendar,

My reactions for those are:
Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.

You gave three slightly reasoned arguments for your reads here but nothing for urap2 - why?

I didn't really find anything suspicious at that time, looking back, they're are some posts I had no clue why they asked or for what reason and seemed weird, maybe to get more responses I guess? I skimmed part of it when Urap2 and Shoshin were debating.
Now that I'm more awake I read it more thoroughly though.

[Robotnick2]

Robot, do you have any thoughts/reads of your own so far?

Not necessarily picking up a vibe from the group as a whole so far as to who the scumteam are. I'd be really interested in seeing what Noodle and Godmid have to say when they're around to help work out which pair are actually working together I guess.

Since a {SE/newb} scumteam is a 50% possibility there's no point trying to assume that one of the SE players currently is scum and working from there - we're equally likely to see a newb/newb scumteam.

urap2 feels standoffish but that's possibly just style. Asking the right questions in any case so a townread currently.
Marcus feels vaguely unreadable newb, same with Lavender. I don't think they know the game well enough to read at the moment - either townread or coached scum, same as Lavender. I think if either of them were scum at the moment they'd probably need coaching to survive - will be interesting seeing who flips what.
You're complex but I don't think the self-voting thing is a massive thing. If it's NAI then it's NAI, can't draw more from that. If it's not then I guess we'd have seen more disagreement about that which we've not really - it's been more metagaming than disagreement over the action itself.
Content is pro-town though, so you and Duck are leaning town just on that basis.
That said, I'm wary of Duck's coaching, as I'm suspicious it could be coaching scum, especially the interaction between them/Lav/Marcus, but alternately this game is precisely for teaching people how to play so... dunno.
Can the scumteam talk during the day to eachother? In the games I've played before they can't, which would make any coaching from scum more obvious - in that case I'd be more willing to entertain a Duck/{Lav/Marcus} team.

Think that's my summary at the moment

[the worst]

We can definitely look at scumteams.

It sounds like you townread me yet entertain a scumteam I'm in - mind going into why that is? Could you throw me a couple of posts which look like coaching from your point of view?

There is scum daychat, so you're right in thinking the option to coach via scum pt is there.

[the worst]

(quick site meta moment: some people on MS do get a bit funny about discussing scumteams and "pre flip associatives" - it's very much a site by site thing and even player by player. I think the fact we get fussy about pre flip associatives is a little bit silly. If interactions don't look s/s, or do look s/s, I'm gonna call them out before any of the players involved flip. Often people's reactions to being called scum with xyz say more than the original content that looked like they were scum with xyz.

Just my two cents worth-- I'd be careful using preflips but I am definitely FOR them ftr)

[Robotnick2]

We can definitely look at scumteams.

It sounds like you townread me yet entertain a scumteam I'm in - mind going into why that is? Could you throw me a couple of posts which look like coaching from your point of view?

There is scum daychat, so you're right in thinking the option to coach via scum pt is there.

Sure thing!

I think on the whole, you are currently presenting well as town. The actions you're taking seem like an interested and engaged town member who is generating content and helping new people - big town tick there
However, it was entirely possible that these actions are instead helping a fellow scum member so, whilst seeming pro-town, are actually a cover for helping your team.
That said, if there is scum daychat (thanks for the info there!) then there'd be no need to do that in plain sight, so it leans you back more towards town in that regard.

Posts such as:

Hmm ok. Based on that if you had to make a guess, who do you think is town?--is anyone scummy in your opinion?

or

Actually Marc/Lav I like the gooey brain thoughts both of you have offered so far. Keep it up

were mainly what I was picking up on I think

[the worst]

I see where you're coming from. And yeah on the flip side to them, maybe I'm coaching you around this conversation in the scum pt as we're having it. If you have a town role pm then there are 28 possible scumteams (I think; I'm bad at maths). Weighing up what you think is possible vs. what you think is probable is fairly healthy.

You mentioned a few townreads, would you mind putting them in a kind of order so I can get a better picture of where your reads are at holistically?

Anything like

most town
name1
name2
name3
etc.
least town

would help a lot.

[the worst]

what about you, duck? what do you think about lavender

Oops I ignored this
Still forming an opinion on Lavender but I like the way she's approaching the game.

[Shoshin]

I strongly support the use of associations to scumhunt.