Newbie 1926: Baseball (Game Over)

[Lavender]

Godmid, The reason why I don’t seem like I’m actively scum-hunting, is because I do not want to make someone stray from a correct read with my unsure reads.
And Ryno, My eager to please thing you have of me, is it because of my answering questions? If so I am simply trying to be helpful. If not and it’s something else like my reads, then you can make an assumption that I want to please. If it’s neither of those then can you tell me what made you think that of me?

It might be that you genuinely want to help, but I get the feeling that you want to seem like you want to help.

Ok, but can you to tell me where you get this feeling from? Of how I want to seem like I’m helping?

I can't tell you without potentially helping you, SCUM!

That's quite bold, can you tell me where I have been scummy, this will also help yourself in persecuting me, and perhaps let myself resolve your misunderstanding about me being scummy.

[Ryno56]

I'm not going to repeat myself again haha

[Ryno56]

As a general point, isn't RVS entirely flawed? Scum can simply use a randomiser to accuse people, hence it doesn't provide any useful information whatsoever

[Lavender]

Just saying I'm scum on a feeling with almost no back-up is kind of redundant. It really doesn't help anyone. Also on your, RVS point, it may or may not be flawed, but it's a starting point right?
It does not necessarily mean no information whatsoever. Since some tells are in the beginning :/

[Ryno56]

It just feels like whatever tells we are grasping at are very, very minimal. I've only played this game IRL so feel free to prove me wrong, and I know that even attempting a read on someone is better than doing it randomly, but it feels like we're barely helping ourselves by doing so, or at least that this process is more complicated that it needs to be. I get that discussion is better than nothing, but as long as the scum as reasonably competent, they can use external sources to more or less randomise their responses to certain things are make themselves unreadable with relative ease.

[Ryno56]

*and make themselves

[u r a person 2]

I can tell you from experience that people make alignment-indicative posts during rvs, and that new scum players have frequently been caught off of their first post in the last 20 or so newbie games. I think it's happening this game, too.

Also, it's my opinion that it's never a good idea to refuse to engage with someone you are scum reading.

If you are correct, and they are scum, you can ask them questions about their reads. if they cooperate, that can be analyzed post flip. If they refuse, it helps you lynch them.

If you are wrong, and they are town, refusing to engage with them takes away the single easiest path to a correct read. It also tends to piss people off, which makes working with them more difficult if/when you do correct your read.

Just friendly advice that you have no obligation to take~

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Lavender

[Ryno56]

I understand and respect your points. I agree that being seen as uncooperative is a bad thing, although I must admit that the idea of having make up reasons to justify various points for the next 9 days is a little... daunting. Maybe all we're doing here is trying to generate conversation, about ANYTHING, in the hopes that a player will slip up and tip us off that they are scum. That seems better than literally not talking, but it also seems fairly fruitless (i.e. it has a low chance of actually working).

Of course I agree that bad players can be read. Maybe the fact that this is a newbie game means that we will all be much more likely to slip up, but everyone in here seems to be pretty experienced. I'm simply dubious about the idea that someone relatively competent (50+ online games) can be read with any significant degree of success. That's partly why I'm here, it's an experiment to see if such a thing is possible.

'Online, though, the expressions and idiosyncrasies of players become much harder to determine. You cannot, after all, watch as a player stutters to say something they know is not true - you just see the carefully vetted message at the end. This is why most people are simply not good at forum Mafia, and as a result Mafia tends to win quite a bit more. As a result, online games tend to feature more power roles in hopes of giving Town a better chance than they normally would have. '

This is from the Wiki, and it's a viewpoint that I agree with. I think reading people here will be very hard, but I'm willing to try, of course, that's why I'm here after all.

Sorry about derailing the conversation.

[Shoshin]

All players are readable.

[Ryno56]

All players are readable.

Why doesn't town win every game then?

[Shoshin]

Town/scum play different.

Identifying the difference isn't guaranteed.

[Shoshin]

Towns lose for all sorts of reasons.

The best townies consistently catch scum at a rate significantly above random & they do this because players are readable.

You'll also find that players who think nobody is readable tend to be bad players. Don't become one of those players.

[Ryno56]

I'll give it a shot

[Marcus325]

Well Lavender has moved to L-2 reasonably quickly

[Marcus325]

@Shoshin reason for voting Lavendar?

[brassherald]

Votecount 1.03

Lavender (3)~

Godmid, Ryno56, Shoshin

godmid (2)~

the worst, u r a person 2

Shoshin (1) ~

whig

Not Voting (3)~

Lavender, Marcus325, Robotnick2

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Mod Notes

The day will end in (expired on 2019-04-22 05:45:00)

[the worst]

Godmid, The reason why I don’t seem like I’m actively scum-hunting, is because I do not want to make someone stray from a correct read with my unsure reads.
And Ryno, My eager to please thing you have of me, is it because of my answering questions? If so I am simply trying to be helpful. If not and it’s something else like my reads, then you can make an assumption that I want to please. If it’s neither of those then can you tell me what made you think that of me?

It might be that you genuinely want to help, but I get the feeling that you want to seem like you want to help.

this is a pretty good take

don't worry about steering people down the garden path. if we think there's some merit in your reads we might change our minds. if we're not sold or uncertain, we'll be able to talk through it with you and (if you're town) hopefully see that your reads come from a town mindset.

just work with us as assertively as you can.

[the worst]

I can't tell you without potentially helping you, SCUM!

if you're town this response is deeply unproductive.
please try again

[the worst]

ryno what's your experience with mafia like?

[the worst]

also curious how confident you are in lav!scum and if you can succinctly explain what you're seeing to me?

[u r a person 2]

QUAck

[Godmid]

Godmid, The reason why I don’t seem like I’m actively scum-hunting, is because I do not want to make someone stray from a correct read with my unsure reads.
And Ryno, My eager to please thing you have of me, is it because of my answering questions? If so I am simply trying to be helpful. If not and it’s something else like my reads, then you can make an assumption that I want to please. If it’s neither of those then can you tell me what made you think that of me?

To be clear, the fact that you are new to forum mafia and are therefore going to be less certain in your reads is something that I am very much taking into account. However, the issue I have isn't so much that you aren't being active enough in scum-hunting, since you are answering questions when asked. It's that when you have been answering those questions and giving opinions, your opinions seem to have a "not suspicious" bias towards them.

First question, well I'm not sure how to do rvs well or in a way that is good. Basically, I don't want to get in the way.
My reactions for those are:
Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.

The answer that you gave to this is that you are worried about leading people away from a correct read. However, are you really that worried about swaying people that heavily just by giving an opinion?

[Lavender]

Godmid, The reason why I don’t seem like I’m actively scum-hunting, is because I do not want to make someone stray from a correct read with my unsure reads.
And Ryno, My eager to please thing you have of me, is it because of my answering questions? If so I am simply trying to be helpful. If not and it’s something else like my reads, then you can make an assumption that I want to please. If it’s neither of those then can you tell me what made you think that of me?

To be clear, the fact that you are new to forum mafia and are therefore going to be less certain in your reads is something that I am very much taking into account. However, the issue I have isn't so much that you aren't being active enough in scum-hunting, since you are answering questions when asked. It's that when you have been answering those questions and giving opinions, your opinions seem to have a "not suspicious" bias towards them.

First question, well I'm not sure how to do rvs well or in a way that is good. Basically, I don't want to get in the way.
My reactions for those are:
Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.

The answer that you gave to this is that you are worried about leading people away from a correct read. However, are you really that worried about swaying people that heavily just by giving an opinion?

It is how my mind makes of it, I not saying swaying heavily, just leading to the wrong path. I will give more opinions now and be more assertive with people saying I should as it helps with reads and can make me have a bit more tell.
Active scum-hunting, how should I do this? Ask questions and accuse? If so then I will try my best.

[Ryno56]

My experience of Mafia is many many games IRL (100+) but absolutely none online. So all my physical body tells are out.

I'm more confident on Lavender now. They seem to be much more concerned with their own image than they are about finding scum. That being said, I am naturally cautious about a lynch on the first day.

Jas anyone not showed up to play yet, and is that sus? Perhaps thinking we will dismiss them as jnactive?