Newbie 1926: Baseball (Game Over)


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Post Post #775 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 12:35 pm

Post by the worst »

I'll speak what's on my mind so I might waffle a tiny bit or say some stuff which just might be a bit overly jargony/confusing. if you don't understand any part of this (or if the whole thing is just gibberish) lmk and I'll go into it in more detail. :)

okay first off I just want to say welcome and that I like the cut of your jib. some of your analysis was really really astute; I think it just took you a while to warm up. some of your earlier questioning e.g. around Shoshin gave off an energy of "posting for the sake of posting". where I think you wound up being the day one mislynch is largely process of elimination. as a collective, we had townreads on pretty much every slot except for you and DENMON (at varying degrees). Aday phases get really interesting when one step beyond this happens, and you realise that someone in the "POE pool" is actually town, and suddenly we're all forced to reassess which of our townreads we're wrong on. when you're in the POE pool, it's very very difficult to score townreads because people naturally confirmation bias themselves towards their townreads being right; which means by default they're confirmation biased towards assuming their POE scumreads are correct.

and to your credit: I started to reassess my read on you at the end of day one. your posting got really intriguing and I think if we'd had another few days we probably would have reached the point where the POE was {DENMON} only and we needed to reassess our reads. I doubt we catch Shoshin d1 (her greatest strength as scum is that she posts very, very well) but if we'd nailed you as town we would have been a step closer. and I think we nearly got there.

first recommendation I'd make, is to back yourself more. this is really damn difficult when you're newer to a format (or just to a community :P) but projecting confidence and charisma is often the key to kicking ass in a social game. if you have a look at your early ISO, some of the things you were picking up on in Shoshin's and my posting looked quite semantic and it was tricky to see where you were coming from with the questions. to someone trying to parse your alignment, I was left with an impression of "this could exactly be 1) town who is curious about our posts, or 2) scum who just needs to post something so they don't feel like they're lurking".

and in hindsight, I think there's a chance you were onto something with Shoshin. I might go back and recheck these posts to see if there's another way you could have phrased your questions/stances. but if you'd taken a line of "I don't like shoshin doing _____ and I think it comes from scum", rather than "Shoshin I think you're doing _______. Do you agree?" then I think your case would have presented as more assertive and it might have helped you with feeling more confident in what you were feeling uncomfortable about.

this is the trickiest piece of feedback to give, and it's something that 100% gets easier with more experience and once you feel more comfortable with a community. I suspect there's a decent chance you really did have a fluke good scumread on Shoshin right at the start of d1 and let us talk you out of it. let me know if I'm not right on this tho :lol:

the other thing I'd recommend off the top of my head is just posting more.. not necessarily nolifing the game and sitting on the thread all day (The Way of the Duckling), but I think in general 3 medium posts are often more effective than 1 lengthy post.

this probably sounds a little crazy but for example if you lay down a quick write-up of how you're feeling, then do a second post with some post by post analysis, then a third post with either reinforcing your original thought or changing your mind based on your findings: that presents a 'read trajectory' with time stamps in a way that could easily be edited in a larger post. from a viewer's perspective, it let's me see maybe slightly more of your thought process but more importantly proves with more certainty that you're not making up your thought process :D

the other thing this allows us to do is to better catch you in real time. if you're onsite for half an hour, for example, being able to exchange half a dozen quick posts with someone about why you're thinking something/directly compare reads usually shows more nuance of thought process, which in turn is more town indicative.

I hope this massive wall of text has some kinda valuable stuff in it. if there's anything you disagree with or want more on just hit me up :D
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Post Post #776 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 12:36 pm

Post by the worst »

that was @godmid hhhhh
I'll be back a bit later and I'll talk to lav/teacher/urap :P
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Post Post #777 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 1:21 pm

Post by ceejayvinoya »

Do me too! Hahaha

And dammit, denmon never came back after I saved his ass day 1 :lol:
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Post Post #778 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 1:23 pm

Post by ceejayvinoya »

In post 764, the worst wrote:Yeeeet gg cjv! Your scumgame has evolved a ton.

Well done, Ryno. :)
tbf I think I mostly just rode sho's towniness in the early game
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Post Post #779 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm

Post by Shoshin »

Personally, I thought Godmid was playing exceptionally well for a new player. His lynch shouldn't have ever happened, & that's mainly on U2/TW since they're the experienced players here, no offense.
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Post Post #780 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 1:59 pm

Post by Shoshin »

In general, everyone played well.

I wish I had been part of this game but I randomly got busy & overwhelmed with other games and life, and then got replaced just as I was starting to have more time again.
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Post Post #781 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 2:09 pm

Post by teacher »

In post 779, Shoshin wrote:U2/TW since they're the experienced players here
Ouch.
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Post Post #782 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 2:11 pm

Post by Fumuki »

Ceejay, I also think your scum game has evolved, although I've not read the whole game.
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Post Post #783 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 2:16 pm

Post by u r a person 2 »

i had a good reason to scum read shoshin on her first post. should have stuck with it.

yeah, we shouldn't have lynched godmid, and that was entirely on me
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Post Post #784 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 2:18 pm

Post by the worst »

I should have been more vocal about Godmid towards the end but the looming deadline definitely crushed me a little there. I'll take my share of the blame.
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Post Post #785 (ISO) » Thu May 02, 2019 2:40 pm

Post by brassherald »

Links will be released tomorrow, today was rough.
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Post Post #786 (ISO) » Fri May 03, 2019 12:17 pm

Post by Godmid »

@TW Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind.

@Shoshin Thanks as well! It was a bit of a shame that you didn't have as much time for the game, but irl stuff happens.


Also, happy birthday @CJ!
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Post Post #787 (ISO) » Sat May 04, 2019 2:51 am

Post by ceejayvinoya »

In post 782, Fumuki wrote:Ceejay, I also think your scum game has evolved, although I've not read the whole game.
Aww thanks :D

Hope to play with you again soon :P
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Post Post #788 (ISO) » Sat May 04, 2019 2:54 am

Post by ceejayvinoya »

In post 786, Godmid wrote:@TW Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind.

@Shoshin Thanks as well! It was a bit of a shame that you didn't have as much time for the game, but irl stuff happens.


Also, happy birthday @CJ!
Thanks Godmid!!! :D

And sorry for getting you lynched early. You were playing well, and I would have agreed with the worst's townlean on you if I had been town :lol:
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Post Post #789 (ISO) » Sat May 04, 2019 2:58 am

Post by brassherald »

For real, releasing the pts today. I'm at the office for a few hours and then I'll do it
I've only made one good post, and don't you dare accuse me of doing it again.
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Post Post #790 (ISO) » Sat May 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Post by the worst »

alright i got this
sorry for the delay, got a bit busy on friday + yesterday

i'll probably be a bit less verbose because i'm exhausted :lol: but hope some of this helps.

@lavender
Spoiler:
you played well! i think your head was pretty much in the right place as far as being obviously-towny and also solving the game. i think your was pretty astute (just projecting for a moment that you were basically saying you didn't think Marcus or Shoshin had produced content that made them any more likely to be either town or scum; this was a good pickup when Shoshin was being incorrectly townread).

the slot we mostly tried to work together on (and didn't get very far) was Marcus' slot. i felt bad for throwing out weak reasons for townreading him around ish and then moving on but i had a theory he might be a town power role and didn't want to pressure him too much. :oops: :oops: sorry it's a little tricky to provide exhaustive feedback--in the case of Godmid I went back late d1 & after the lynch and noted where I went wrong so that I could fix myself next time. whereas with you i think i was more or less townreading you the whole way through, just a little nervously. until urap backed that up and i sheeped his reasoning. :good:

this is gonna sound funny after the running joke this game about your invisibility...but! the main thing i'd say is that you'll benefit from experience and confidence.

a few times your more read-/opinion-heavy posts had a qualification of "i think ___ but i'm new so i'm not sure" -- which is really natural. but i think sometimes, especially when you have a strong feeling about something, double checking and second guessing your own reads can cause you to kinda hold back or feel less confident, be too quick to change your mind on something you really believe, etc.

[contextual personal story which can be skipped]
i sometimes, particularly last year, do the same thing - i have a pretty strong opinion on something, but i don't feel all that great about it so i kind of inadvertently qualify it with an "i'm not sure", or a "does anyone think i'm crazy?". one of my favourite mafia players of all time brought it up to me and i started checking myself for it. i know it's only a minor thing, but the moment i removed the overqualifying "but i'm not sure" and "maybe i'm wrong here" language from *most* of my posts, i started to feel more confident about my own
reads.
[/contextual personal story which can be skipped]

when you're town, often those moments of "I think something is suspicious, but I'm not sure if I should be thinking this" can be gateways to your strongest reads: i really liked that you were happy to voice those reads in the thread. i also think you'll soon have the experience to back yourself up on those feelings. for example in here
In post 77, Lavender wrote:Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.
i wrote shoshin's self-vote off as "slightly towny because she's kicking the game off by drawing attention to herself". but this wasn't actually a conversation which ever happened in the thread, and it might have been beneficial for someone who disagreed with me to bring it up with shoshin

otherwise your discomfort around marcus was good, and going by the tone of this post i think you were kind of posting already knowing that most of the people you were talking about were town. if that makes sense. :P

sorry this post is pretty rambly, and probably not super helpful. you played well especially for a first game, so it's a little tricky to exactly qualify areas for improvement. in a couple of games' time (i'm psychic and know we'll play again soon) i'll have a firmer grip of your playstyle and i'll be able to give more pointed advice than "believe in yourself~~~~!" :lol:)




i failed "less verbose"
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Post Post #791 (ISO) » Sat May 04, 2019 9:35 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 773, teacher wrote:Yes please!
In post 774, u r a person 2 wrote:if you're offering
ok i'll do these together bc us three kind of jammed and - in different ways - kind of ended up with the same POE and roughly townreading each other

Spoiler:
firstly @teacher
did you also read your slot as a town power role slot and locktown me because i'd picked up on the same thing?
because when i was like "yea teacher is obvtown" off your catchup. i was like, worried you'd scumread me because of the way i'm always yelling at people to be wary of your scumgame and more careful reading you... :shifty: :lol:

and @urap
i think the main thing we clashed on here was your tinfoil wrt me being scum (and in turn the fact that your read on me was so reachy it made me paranoid of you). i've re-read the 1v1 and while i was a *tiny* bit bratty, which as you know is low key part of my M.O., i largely stand by the points where i defended myself. :P
having said that i agree with the things you mentioned in discord. if i was scum, that conversation needed to happen. and if we were t/t, it's always better for you to slightly compromise yourself by raising it when you know you can bleed town later.
when i mentioned being disappointed if that was your scumgame, it was largely because if you *were* pushing that as scum i don't think it would've gone anywhere. i wasn't lynchable, your case against me wasn't a case that found scum, etc., etc.
having said that if we hit 3p with {you, me, cjv} i like to think we both would have found each other in the end. :D


so feedback wise
obviously our Biggest Mistakes this game were misreading sho=>cjv and mislynching Godmid
I agree with Shoshin's assertion that it was avoidable, and rereading the thread in slow motion i definitely know how *i* can improve on that front. i know we all kind of got the same solve from three different angles, but hopefully this helps a little. :x

pretty much i'd say i included shoshin in my day one town pile because she posted well. at the start of the day she actually did advance the gamestate in a way that was ~pro-town so i'm not sure i'd catch her off that. i don't think the {urap, shoshin} 1v1 that ensued was actually all that healthy in the end. the main take-away was that whig (Urist-slot) looked towny for the way he solved around the 1v1. unfortunately even rereading it i tend to side slightly more with sho's stance than urap's. that's obviously a problem with the way i parse strength of argument to alignment which i need to work on :P but it's something right?

i'm starting to wonder if locking horns with skilled scum players who you scumread early day one is actually all that valuable. often you wind up picking on semantics, and it's kind of rand who comes out of the argument looking better. my "everyone here is town" post wrt {urap, whig/urist, sho/cjv, tw} was the earliest example of my mistake. the 1v1 happening was very distracting, and while i was reading it i was like "i think this is town!urap casing but shoshin's responses are better than his case; oh and also whig's post just now was towny af". a better town reaction to this gamestate was probably "this 1v1 is ridiculous. i can sort urap. shoshin is easier to sort later in the game. oh and also whig's post just now was towny af" if that makes sense.

like i touched on in my rant @ godmid, in a 2v7 game the moment our POE closes in around two people, we start confbiasing. it's super human naturey to want to be correct, and hey - the number of players you don't townread matches the number of scum in the game - bless af! in reality while our POE was closing in, Godmid's posts were progressively showing more and more of a gamesolving mindset which i think each of us did a disservice by not noticing until it was too late.

even my moment of "let's lynch DENMON instead" wasn't fueled by reading Godmid correctly and i'm super bummed about it. the position i was in was basically:
- nothing excludes them being s/s.
- i think DENMON is more scummy than Godmid.
- Godmid is posting plenty of content, which means realistically he should be easier to read in a later phase.
- Godmid voting DENMON isn't a non-bussing behavior

ergo=> if this is a bus I'll take it. if there's only one scum in the POE, it's more likely DENMON.

but..yeah :/ i think urap was unfortunately right, pulling off a last minute counter wagon when nobody really townread either of them was going to be damn hard work.


sry this was like all pretty much my confessional of my failures this game but i think us 3 were ~on the same page
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Post Post #792 (ISO) » Sat May 04, 2019 9:49 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 777, ceejayvinoya wrote:Do me too!
oh mannn how do i tell the great loose cannon himself in focused terms how to reassess a game
i'm so bad at giving commentary on scum games

aahhhhh i'll try!!

Spoiler:
okay so the scum PT isn't out yet so i don't have a major insight into your thought process. your posting as scum has definitely gotten stronger. you used to be a lot stiffer and didn't have that ~ceejayvinoya energy~ the way you do as town. :P like, it's hard to carry our personality into a scumgame and i think you've improved at that.
basically your flaw this game was not shooting ryno. that's a hard flaw to catch, because he was not an easy read. :lol: probably one point towards the theory of "if a town player is playing scummy, shoot them dead". but then again if he was a VT, you'd be shooting a potential mislynch in a game that didn't have many easy mislynches. :shrug:

i kinda assume you killed teacher n2 because you also thought he was a tpr. :P i think with context clues around the way everyone was townreading teacher n1 he was probably a better kill than Lavender was for all the combination of experience, power role equity, and obvious-townness.

the lav kill wasn't *bad* because i doubt she was going to get mislynched, but i think she had super low power role equity as well. TPRs usually approach the thread like they know too much or have something to hide. the way marcus was a little unfocused around the start of the game gave me cop pings because it had that unconscious energy like he'd be able to solve this without us, hence why i latched onto soft defending him. lav's hesitation around posting was more of a stylistic thing (e.g. "i think ___ but i'm not sure"); she wasn't holding anything back imo, just wasn't experienced.

i think urap/tw were obviously vanilla townies and leaving us alive as long as possible had a tense wildcard effect. i'm pretty sure this is something scum *has* to do and hope for when there are so many towny slots. imo whig didn't have much power role equity but Urist had a little.


first and foremost, i think just focus on your night kill strategy probably?
even if you didn't have a strong town power role read, shooting into the very talkative and experienced core in {tw, urap, teacher} would have yielded results and probably strengthened the reads of whichever two were left standing
more time pondering on which players were approaching the game like town power roles miiight have helped. teacher was probably the best n1 kill possible. outside of that, it's hard to say -- i think this would've gone differently without teacher around the place.


sorry this isn't a whole lot of help. orz
i'm pretty bad at giving feedback on scumplay unless it's like, my teammates :lol:
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Post Post #793 (ISO) » Sun May 05, 2019 9:11 am

Post by Lavender »

In post 790, the worst wrote:alright i got this
sorry for the delay, got a bit busy on friday + yesterday

i'll probably be a bit less verbose because i'm exhausted :lol: but hope some of this helps.

@lavender
Spoiler:
you played well! i think your head was pretty much in the right place as far as being obviously-towny and also solving the game. i think your was pretty astute (just projecting for a moment that you were basically saying you didn't think Marcus or Shoshin had produced content that made them any more likely to be either town or scum; this was a good pickup when Shoshin was being incorrectly townread).

the slot we mostly tried to work together on (and didn't get very far) was Marcus' slot. i felt bad for throwing out weak reasons for townreading him around ish and then moving on but i had a theory he might be a town power role and didn't want to pressure him too much. :oops: :oops: sorry it's a little tricky to provide exhaustive feedback--in the case of Godmid I went back late d1 & after the lynch and noted where I went wrong so that I could fix myself next time. whereas with you i think i was more or less townreading you the whole way through, just a little nervously. until urap backed that up and i sheeped his reasoning. :good:

this is gonna sound funny after the running joke this game about your invisibility...but! the main thing i'd say is that you'll benefit from experience and confidence.

a few times your more read-/opinion-heavy posts had a qualification of "i think ___ but i'm new so i'm not sure" -- which is really natural. but i think sometimes, especially when you have a strong feeling about something, double checking and second guessing your own reads can cause you to kinda hold back or feel less confident, be too quick to change your mind on something you really believe, etc.

[contextual personal story which can be skipped]
i sometimes, particularly last year, do the same thing - i have a pretty strong opinion on something, but i don't feel all that great about it so i kind of inadvertently qualify it with an "i'm not sure", or a "does anyone think i'm crazy?". one of my favourite mafia players of all time brought it up to me and i started checking myself for it. i know it's only a minor thing, but the moment i removed the overqualifying "but i'm not sure" and "maybe i'm wrong here" language from *most* of my posts, i started to feel more confident about my own
reads.
[/contextual personal story which can be skipped]

when you're town, often those moments of "I think something is suspicious, but I'm not sure if I should be thinking this" can be gateways to your strongest reads: i really liked that you were happy to voice those reads in the thread. i also think you'll soon have the experience to back yourself up on those feelings. for example in here
In post 77, Lavender wrote:Shoshin-Slightly weird for self-voting but it might just have been to get things started.
Urap2-Seems ok atm
Whig-Is new like me so it seems like he is simply trying I think.
Marcus-It was strange and seemed to suggest the worst was scum, I'm not sure if I should take this like a simple rvs.
i wrote shoshin's self-vote off as "slightly towny because she's kicking the game off by drawing attention to herself". but this wasn't actually a conversation which ever happened in the thread, and it might have been beneficial for someone who disagreed with me to bring it up with shoshin

otherwise your discomfort around marcus was good, and going by the tone of this post i think you were kind of posting already knowing that most of the people you were talking about were town. if that makes sense. :P

sorry this post is pretty rambly, and probably not super helpful. you played well especially for a first game, so it's a little tricky to exactly qualify areas for improvement. in a couple of games' time (i'm psychic and know we'll play again soon) i'll have a firmer grip of your playstyle and i'll be able to give more pointed advice than "believe in yourself~~~~!" :lol:)




i failed "less verbose"
Thank you for your feedback XD
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Post Post #794 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2019 5:31 am

Post by Ryno56 »

What were the roles and everything
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Post Post #795 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2019 10:37 am

Post by the worst »

I was a vt. just waiting for brass to unveil the private topics - that'll include a mod/dead pt with all the secrets. :D
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Post Post #796 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 2:10 am

Post by brassherald »

Sorry, delays due to lots of work, the worst, you should just barrage me with Discord messages until I do it tbh because I keep forgetting
I've only made one good post, and don't you dare accuse me of doing it again.
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Post Post #797 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 9:24 am

Post by the worst »

*cracks knuckles*
challenge accepted
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Post Post #798 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 11:06 am

Post by PenguinPower »

-
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Post Post #799 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 11:08 am

Post by PenguinPower »

Image
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