Newbie 1934: Tundra (Game Over)

[teacher]

Yea. I’m thinking it may be as simple as raya-bae and I’m inclined to lynch through the replacement. Those two slots - all four players - are the lowest in activity by a WIDE margin.

[teacher]

Actually, that’s kind of townie.

Just didn’t feel like answering Menalques question?

[Irrelephant11]

Wow this was a ton to catch up on. I'm pretty busy today so I likely won't be able to post again until tomorrow but I'll just say where my head is at. I still think that logically Raya is the most scummy slot right now, but I'm starting to feel that Irrelephant is the scummiest player currently. Their reads and pushes have been all over the place and their actions, while plentiful, don't seem to be done with the intent of helping town. One major example of this that I found quite weird was their strange interaction with my slot. They spend a ton of posts and time debating the alignment of my slot, then they finally do a full ISO analysis and come to the conclusion that I'm leaning town. However, this very quickly shifts to a scumread off of what seems to me to be a potential associative with Teacher. To me, this suggests that the way they are reading the game is meant more to appease town than to actually solve the game.

An example of this is

In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum.

which is quite inconsistent with earlier logic that he agreed with.

Spoiler:

As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

Explain the first part to me more, how does Baezu sheeping you lead to more of a change in the game state if she’s scum? How did her sheeping you halt it?

Second part, explain to me how scum abuse it if you’re not right?

This whole post was a bit unclear to me.

Baezu and I both on Teacher as town, why would scum ever not push it if Teacher is town? They’d rather have a Raya lynch over teacher? One that would incriminate them much harder after a green flip?

If Baezu is scum going on TownTeacher, what’s the point in that?

Baezu-Raya scum team I guess could counteract that. Idk. If I’m super wrong, why is scum not taking advantage of me being wrong. I’d take the blunt of the damage for it.

Hey now I see inside your head
This post makes sense to me

If he agrees with this logic, then in a world where teacher is town and I am mafia, I am definitely pushing teacher as that would be a good mislynch on a strong player where I do not take much of the blame. In fact, he's called me out previously for my bold, early push on the SEs and I think he would be able to see that I would absolutely use that as a reason to push on teacher. And yet, despite that, he chooses to phrase his post in 621 in a way such that either teacher or I could be mafia which, while it looks right, goes against logic that he's previously agreed with. This suggests to me that his scumread on me right now is completely fabricated.

So to summarize,
“Irrelephant is scum because:
-his logic is inconsistent
-he changed his mind a couple times
- ?”
These are towntells, by the way.

You feel overly concerned with my read on you, cinnamon. I don’t scumread you strongly in isolation, I just know that you’re a very capable scum player from your meta and your associatives leave open the possibility you’re the a likely scum *if I’m wrong* on my strongest scumread.
Also, can you summarize how exactly my logic contradicted? I’ve reread your post a few times and everything I said still makes sense to me tbh

I’ve stopped in to say I’m grateful for the time extension and
The main reason I’m townreading FL right now is that only RadiantCowbells is the only scumplayer who has ever made town!me feel like scumreading him would be a dangerous or scary proposition, which is how I’ve recently felt regarding FL. If he’s scum he’s done a great job of making me nervous to explore the idea out loud by setting up a situation where if I ever scumread him it’s proof that he’s right that im scum. This makes me townread him because that’s a very hard thing to do. and
In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum. Put another way, I think there’s always 1-2 scum in {me, FL, teacher, cinnamon} if Raya flips town. Put yet another way I have ruled out all scumteams that consist of two of {Menalque, Baezu, Eggs, Voted}, based purely on BoP’ing myself + Flavor Leaf. and
I still think the double replace out slot is scum

Kay we’re going to dinner see y’all tomorrow

This honestly makes no sense as a reason to town someone.

You’re right, I kinda didn’t finish the thought.
Only one scum player has ever made town!me feel afraid to scumread them
Multiple town players have made town!me feel afraid to scumread them, and town!me has done that to other players (I think).
Therefore, this is very town indicative for FL unless I can find a game in which scum!him has done this - I haven’t had time to look.

[teacher]

Ok that makes more sense.

[Voted]

Lol
I was giving Voted a juicy wagon and seeing if he’d take it
He didn’t even touch it
(..)

@FL, why would scum!Irrelephand do that?

[Cinnamon]

Spoiler:

Wow this was a ton to catch up on. I'm pretty busy today so I likely won't be able to post again until tomorrow but I'll just say where my head is at. I still think that logically Raya is the most scummy slot right now, but I'm starting to feel that Irrelephant is the scummiest player currently. Their reads and pushes have been all over the place and their actions, while plentiful, don't seem to be done with the intent of helping town. One major example of this that I found quite weird was their strange interaction with my slot. They spend a ton of posts and time debating the alignment of my slot, then they finally do a full ISO analysis and come to the conclusion that I'm leaning town. However, this very quickly shifts to a scumread off of what seems to me to be a potential associative with Teacher. To me, this suggests that the way they are reading the game is meant more to appease town than to actually solve the game.

An example of this is

In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum.

which is quite inconsistent with earlier logic that he agreed with.

As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

Explain the first part to me more, how does Baezu sheeping you lead to more of a change in the game state if she’s scum? How did her sheeping you halt it?

Second part, explain to me how scum abuse it if you’re not right?

This whole post was a bit unclear to me.

Baezu and I both on Teacher as town, why would scum ever not push it if Teacher is town? They’d rather have a Raya lynch over teacher? One that would incriminate them much harder after a green flip?

If Baezu is scum going on TownTeacher, what’s the point in that?

Baezu-Raya scum team I guess could counteract that. Idk. If I’m super wrong, why is scum not taking advantage of me being wrong. I’d take the blunt of the damage for it.

Hey now I see inside your head
This post makes sense to me

If he agrees with this logic, then in a world where teacher is town and I am mafia, I am definitely pushing teacher as that would be a good mislynch on a strong player where I do not take much of the blame. In fact, he's called me out previously for my bold, early push on the SEs and I think he would be able to see that I would absolutely use that as a reason to push on teacher. And yet, despite that, he chooses to phrase his post in 621 in a way such that either teacher or I could be mafia which, while it looks right, goes against logic that he's previously agreed with. This suggests to me that his scumread on me right now is completely fabricated.

So to summarize,
“Irrelephant is scum because:
-his logic is inconsistent
-he changed his mind a couple times
- ?”
These are towntells, by the way.

You feel overly concerned with my read on you, cinnamon. I don’t scumread you strongly in isolation, I just know that you’re a very capable scum player from your meta and your associatives leave open the possibility you’re the a likely scum *if I’m wrong* on my strongest scumread.
Also, can you summarize how exactly my logic contradicted? I’ve reread your post a few times and everything I said still makes sense to me tbh

I’ve stopped in to say I’m grateful for the time extension and
The main reason I’m townreading FL right now is that only RadiantCowbells is the only scumplayer who has ever made town!me feel like scumreading him would be a dangerous or scary proposition, which is how I’ve recently felt regarding FL. If he’s scum he’s done a great job of making me nervous to explore the idea out loud by setting up a situation where if I ever scumread him it’s proof that he’s right that im scum. This makes me townread him because that’s a very hard thing to do. and
In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum. Put another way, I think there’s always 1-2 scum in {me, FL, teacher, cinnamon} if Raya flips town. Put yet another way I have ruled out all scumteams that consist of two of {Menalque, Baezu, Eggs, Voted}, based purely on BoP’ing myself + Flavor Leaf. and
I still think the double replace out slot is scum

Kay we’re going to dinner see y’all tomorrow

This honestly makes no sense as a reason to town someone.

You’re right, I kinda didn’t finish the thought.
Only one scum player has ever made town!me feel afraid to scumread them
Multiple town players have made town!me feel afraid to scumread them, and town!me has done that to other players (I think).
Therefore, this is very town indicative for FL unless I can find a game in which scum!him has done this - I haven’t had time to look.

Neither of the reasons you posted were reasons why I thought you were scummy on their own. I think it's scummy because to me these inconsistencies over time show to me that your pushes aren't coming with a town thought process behind them.

The reason why I think your logic there is wrong is because, if I'm understanding correctly, the main reason I would be scumread at this moment is that in the case that teacher is mafia I am most likely to be their partner. I can understand that view, and I wouldn't scumread somebody for using that logic. However, what you suggested in your post 621 is that

In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum.

The way you word this suggests that teacher and/or I are part of the scum team, but from the logic that you've previously agreed with it would be unlikely that I am mafia and not on a team with teacher, as I could have pushed on teacher using arguments that I've been pushing the entire day.

[Flavor Leaf]

To paint you as scum if town you took it...?

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Irrelephant

[Flavor Leaf]

Y’all convinced me

[Voted]

FL is trying to put other SEs in 1v1, while both refuses to do so (did I get this right?)
If so, then it is very likely that Teacher and Irrelephant have same alignment.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL is trying to put other SEs in 1v1, while both refuses to do so (did I get this right?)
If so, then it is very likely that Teacher and Irrelephant have same alignment.

Why?

I believe one of them is scum, they both could be scum, but that’s just what it looks like at face value to me.

I’m starting to lean only one of them have scum

[Voted]

To paint you as scum if town you took it...?

Town me would take a wagoon of my strongest townread?

[Voted]

LF tries to put 1v1 between Irrelephant and Teacher, they both refuses to go in 1v1 and does not scum read FL.

I honestly think they are both town. Again, why are you so strongly going against other SEs? Because you think they must be coaching newbies to not look scummy?

[Irrelephant11]

Wrong. I’m town. Stop tunneling the most talkative players for saying things that, in a few outside cases, could have scum motivation.
FL you are the most frustrating player I’ve ever played with. There are other things I would say here if they were within the rules. As it is, you are so so frustrating.

Cinnamon you’re ignoring a million conditionals that are right there in my post. IF raya is town, and IF Flavor is scum, then Flavor’s statement that {me, you, teacher} has 1-2 scum is almost certainly correct (because town!Flavor has good reads and this is a world where Raya/Baezu can’t be the team). I still think Raya slot is the most likely to flip scum.

I don’t know how likely it is that you’re scum if it’s not with teacher - I think you’re somewhat towny in isolation, but I have not ruled out all scumteams with you on them except for the you/teacher (how could I? Some slots have barely played).

[Flavor Leaf]

No, because I don’t think many of the newbies are scum...?

You’re pandering.

Neither Irrelephant nor Teacher are going to 1v1 so they try to diffuse me.

I feel like if they were town, they

would

1v1 me, but scum them can’t push me or they’re gonna come off as scum in the end.

I’m very hard for scum to push.

[Flavor Leaf]

My early day phases are strictly to elicit reactions from players for the late game.

Just because I scum read or town read someone now doesn’t mean I think they are scum or town.

[Flavor Leaf]

By doing specific things, scum are forced to act in a different way, and that’s able to be analyzed afterwards.

[Irrelephant11]

Part of me is starting to feel FL’s refusal to acknowledge the scumminess of the scummiest slot has scum motivation, because lynching someone other than Raya benefits scum!Flavor regardless of Raya’s alignment (if town, D2 gets easier. If scum, well duh)
But another part of me is reminded that longer deadlines help scum more than town in newbie games and this feels the exact kind of long-deadline paranoia that’s likely to lead me to a mislynch

[Ausuka]

Pine replaces Raya36!

[Flavor Leaf]

FL does the fact that both teacher and irrelephant are on the Raya wagon have any bearing on your analysis?

Yeah, i think that’s a mislynch scum are going for.

Even if one of them are scum, they’re probably scum with Raya. I don’t know which of them is scum at this point, but I know one of them is for sure.

[Flavor Leaf]

Part of me is starting to feel FL’s refusal to acknowledge the scumminess of the scummiest slot has scum motivation, because lynching someone other than Raya benefits scum!Flavor regardless of Raya’s alignment (if town, D2 gets easier. If scum, well duh)
But another part of me is reminded that longer deadlines help scum more than town in newbie games and this feels the exact kind of long-deadline paranoia that’s likely to lead me to a mislynch

Ah, see, now he finally took the bait and found a way to twist it back.

I was waiting for this.

This one’s the scum one.

[Flavor Leaf]

Pine’s here now. Case what you were trying to case on Raya on him then. We’ll see what you come up with.

[Irrelephant11]

Part of me is starting to feel FL’s refusal to acknowledge the scumminess of the scummiest slot has scum motivation, because lynching someone other than Raya benefits scum!Flavor regardless of Raya’s alignment (if town, D2 gets easier. If scum, well duh)
But another part of me is reminded that longer deadlines help scum more than town in newbie games and this feels the exact kind of long-deadline paranoia that’s likely to lead me to a mislynch

Ah, see, now he finally took the bait and found a way to twist it back.

I was waiting for this.

This one’s the scum one.

If you want me to BoP you on your read of me I’ll gladly 1v1 you. I have no fears
If I’m real honest I don’t have fun TvTing you anyway so if that’s what this is at least I won’t have to deal with your headstrong personality

But #%^*, y’all about “twisting it back”
I’ll just quote your reads of me in our first game together if you want examples of that

[Irrelephant11]

Pine’s here now. Case what you were trying to case on Raya on him then. We’ll see what you come up with.

I’m too tilted at your refusal to see that I’m the towniest slot in the game to figure out if you’re worth interacting with I’m this moment
I’ll gladly wait and see what Pine has to say about us both

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s posturing, though. I don’t think you’re coming from a town mindset.

You’re physically doing stuff that is townie, yes, but I don’t believe you are doing said townie things from a town mindset.