Mini Normal 2081 — My First Game! [Game Over]

[Cinnamon]

I agree on chen, they're pretty null for now.

Pisskop too, they're still scummy but just not a lynch yet.

I think you're close to null here as well. I feel town vibes from you but from my limited experience with you that's not a great reason to townread you. Probably slightly town-null because your reads are aligning with mine in a number of places.

[skitter30]

I feel town vibes from you but from my limited experience with you that's not a great reason to townread you.

depends on what exactly are producing the town vibes but yeah not really

[skitter30]

i'm naturally townie sounding as both alignments usually

[Menalque]

Menelaus engaging people scumreading you is one thing but outright TRing them FOR scumreading you is not townie

Think I've already responded to this via Cinn, but to be clear: it's not bc they're scumreading me. It's because they're townreading luv and scumreading me. I don't think doing both at the same time makes that much sense rn. Either I'm right and luv has a scummy ISO and we should be voting there OR I'm scum trying to derail the wagon on pisskop

Menelaus has been trying to appease the people scum reading him instead of actually finding scum

Well yeah, because I think I've found scum so now I wanna get the people who I think are town off me and onto him. Persuading them to get off me means they're at least nulling me which means they're more likely to listen to my case on luv

I think menelaus spews his teammates if scum

idk what this means?

Exilon your play feels like idk Town taly for some reason

Menelaus dismissing you as scum without much reason in his readlist the same way he treated my slot and your methodical interactions make you town

I'm gonna respond to exi now so you'll see why he's down there

Menelaus if you are scum your scumgame is very good

It's unfortunate that pisskop's claim is very likely and that paints you as the more likely scum over luv

so as I'm town does that mean my towngame is pretty bad lol?

how does pisskop's claim being likely make me more likely scum vs luv? surely the contrary

[Cinnamon]

Reading back, I don't like how chennisden calls me out for being scum but neither tries to scumcase me or ask me about any of my posts.

[Menalque]

On the other hand, I feel undecided on Menalque.

I really like his interactions and I think they're productive. I appreciate them. I feel there's important associatives here.

His case on LUV has some merit but I think he's stretching a bit on things that aren't really ai. They *could* be done by scum so I see where he can come from, but at the same time, I really dislike the timing of it in context of Pisskop. I don't feel like it comes out of nowhere though (512 is believable enough for me), and I think it'll be easier to sort later.

Why are you TRing luv?

a) he's visibly trying to sort people; i can see what he's thinking and how his thought process has evolved; he's not just declaring reads and sticking with them for long-ish periods of time
b) not townreading me/trying to buddy me/trying to appease me
c) his line of questining to you regarding the cop/doc/neighborizer thing
d) probably some other stuff that i'm not thinking of right at this moment that i'll remember in like 5 min

Regarding (a) — where? I just looked at his ISO again. As far as I can see it’s non-commital, non-commital, non-commital, gets pushed so TRs exi and scumleans me

Sticks to those, then rapidly gets to the point of being willing to hammer pk

Then sticks more to the TR on exi and upgrades me from a scumlean to a scumread

I don’t see his thought process evolving, and I don’t see him not declaring reads and sticking to them for long periods of time

Menalque do you feel this is a good summary on your feelings regarding LUV?
Could you kindly point out to me how the upgrade from scumlean to scumread is done, and how it is scummy?



Also I want to touch on this rq

If we’re doing readslists:

Cinn, skitter, dann
Pk, robb
Exi, hit
Luv

I notice my position here, would you care to elaborate on it?
Also how is PK placed there? If you believe his claim, he should be at the very top of town. Why isn't he?

why do you dislike the timing re:pisskop? that was the whole impetus for why I started finding luv scummy, with the intent prompting me to go back and read his ISO

yeah, that's a good summary of my feelings re: luv

I'm gonna respond to the other q about how he goes from scumlean to scumread in another post because I think I'm gonna need to quote him

I'm gonna handle the PK positioning first. He's there because I can still see the possibility of it being a fakeclaim and someone counter claiming him before EoD. If that doesn't happen then PK goes to the top of the list. But I still find his play scummy prior to the claim, moreso than Dann, skitter, or Cinn (good point about the "emotionally charged" thing, but I think I scumread Cinn too easily based on my last game with him and I still think he's been v consistent with his play there so it's not enough to shake me off my TR)

the reason you're where you are is PoE. like I've said, I'm TRing skitter, Cinn, dann; I also think Robb comes more from town than scum, but I find it hard to read him so that's why he's not at the top; pisskop is the same tier as explained above; there need to be two scum in the game. as I don't think it's any of the others, it's gotta be you or hit/chen, so you go near the bottom with luv

[Menalque]

[...]

I have some suspicion regarding Menalaque but it’s very weak.

[...]

So v weak suspicion here.

[...]

It seemed like he was pushing me to vote Sky and it rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

Okay, fair enough.

[...]

I guess my followup question would be why wouldn't you pressure this?

I took a very very quick glance at your meta and it didn't seem like you had any qualms with voting early in another game. I'm just trying to figure out whether this is a playstyle thing for you or if there's something about

this game

in particular that's giving you trouble.

Just felt like it was more noteworthy then something to condemn him for. Some games I’ll have very quick tonal scum reads and others I won’t.

NB: luv still isn't voting for anyone at this point, and has been complaining about the gamestate being stagnant. One would think that he would vote me here for pressure. As dann mentions, luv doesn't seem to have any issues voting early in at least one other game. So he's able to throw a little bit of shade on me here but not act.

===

time hop, I engage for a bit over the pisskop claim, come round to the idea that luv is scummier after I check his ISO after his intent

===

Yeah, actually, I think it’s luv and that he’s this comfortable pushing for a lynch on pisskop bc of cover from exi and robb also arguing it’s a fakeclaim

VOTE: luv

VOTE: Menalque

rather than engage with me about this he just countervotes me

I think it's scummy that after some townie behaviour in questioning why the push on PK was still going just as hard despite the doctor claim and without anyone even discussing the claim, a vote for him was enough to push me from QuEsTiOnS earlier to a hard scumread that's still going

[Exilon]

so the upgrade from scumlean to scumread isn't sudden at all.
I see voting as a form of engagement though. It definitely got you two talking

It feels to me like you're reacting a bit antsy there to getting voted.

I'll go back and comment on the rest as well, I just wanted to point this out.

[Exilon]

One other thing I feel about this is that your initial vote has little to do with the reasons you're pointing out that lead to you scumreading him, which leads to some kind of weird-not-an-actual paradox where your past self is voting for him based on actions from him that hadn't yet happened.

This is a bit of an aside but I think it merits a note.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Could you point out the several posts that I claimed to have complained about the game state? I’m pretty damn sure I made only one post regarding the game state and I even asked how to get the game going in that same post.

How would voting you there pressure you? You say a good portion of my ISO is not only just fluff, but bad, so why would other members of the town follow me on to you at that point?

There’s nothing to engage you about there. You’re voting me for stating intent on a claim I believe to be fake from someone you were strongly scum reading and still are.

[Exilon]

Robb's play was pretty emotionally charged and it gave off town vibes in a way that I think would be very hard to fake. His disappointment in skitter and desire to have his logic used to gamesolve, regardless of whether that's actually correct or not, is very townie.

(...)
Rob is reading as an emotionally-charged townie.

I love it when people use the same words I do

On other topics;

VOTE: Menalque
I'm scumreading Menalque here. Compared to my previous experience with him, his thought process is much less cohesive and I find myself a bit confused by his play. I find 560 to be an example of that.

As a hot take, I think there's exactly one scum in {Menalque, skitter}

I really dislike this here.
1) how does being less cohesive = scummy?
2) The argument that it is less cohesive is based on 1 previous game meta (which is weak imo), and the example is post 560, which is also not very good?

Considering also that is used to jump on a fun bandwagon and avoids commenting on Pisskop while still placing him near the bottom of the readlist all while avoiding voicing any opinion towards him buddying Cinn.... Seems like a setup.

Cinn, how is Menalque scummier than Pisskop?
What do you have to say re: our feelings that he's pocketing you?

A setup for what exactly?
1) His thought process is less fluid and I have trouble seeing where he is coming from. His posts seem less likely to come from a town mindset because of that.
2) There's a little part of meta in that read but it's also I just see his actions as scummy independently. To point to another example, 586 is just a weird thought to have as town.

to 1) dude, this is literally saying the same thing with different words. You're saying it looks less fluid to you (aka less cohesive), therefore it's less likely a town mindset (aka scummy).
So I'll just say I disagree with you on how likely a incoherent train of thought is to come from scum. But I'll do you one more and say that it is much more likely to come from newer players, that you've said Menalque is.
So even considering that fact, you think that makes him most likely to be scum?

2) why? I don't see it. And also, why is this less cohesive and less fluid?


My feeling is that it's an easy setup for a mislynch on Menalque followed by a bus on Pisskop. He's positioned in such a way that you can both go for him later on without being out of the blue or change target if the town just so happens to start buying his claim and give him some town cred.

The fact you've remained mum about it, despite so much significant stuff having happened, some of it concerning you directly, seems like it is deliberate on your part so as to avoid taking a definitive stance on him.
The fact that your case on Menalque is also pretty weak imo doesn't help because it's looking like you're just trying to keep attention on Menalque, even if winging it at times.
You have also avoided answering my question that asked for a direct comparison between Menalque and Pisskop (how is one scummier than the other), which should be a fairly easy question to quickly answer if you were town trying to gamesolve. Not so much for a scumpartner.

Speaking of attention,

I don't like pisskop but I also don't think he's the lynch for today, which is why I turned my attention elsewhere.

The thing is some of it concerns you directly. I had to ask about the pocketing.
You can both comment on it and have your attention somewhere else. You didn't even give it a passing remark?
You can do both. Why wouldn't you do both?

Spoiler: Sidenote

If you're scum this is a really subtle slip! Look at the keyword there slipping out into your explanation.

Spoiler: Cinn quote re: pocketing

My point wasn't to say that you're scummy for doing so but to say that posts that avoid taking stances at this point are not a good reason to scumread somebody.

no worries.

I don't know much about his playstyle, but this kinda pinged me that he may be trying to pocket me more than anything else he said. I'm not sure why, it seemed kinda unnatural?. Either way he's trying to get me on his side so there's a very real chance it is pocketing.

[Exilon]

(...)

why do you dislike the timing re:pisskop? that was the whole impetus for why I started finding luv scummy, with the intent prompting me to go back and read his ISO

(...)

I think you've covered this with someone else and you're aware of it (I think skitter mentioned that it was looking like you were scum trying to avoid his partner getting lynched).
That's what I mean about timing.

It actually to me came a bit out of left field, and while I can certainly believe that his vote spurred you to go into his ISO and make a deep analysis, it still feels as if you're having a hard time letting go of some points and you seem to be grasping very hard at the notion that he must be scummy, the proof you have should be enough, and that we can find much more of it if we keep reading the ISO.

You know? It's not like you don't want to be wrong about him, it's that at some points your insistence feels similar to stalling.

[Cinnamon]

Robb's play was pretty emotionally charged and it gave off town vibes in a way that I think would be very hard to fake. His disappointment in skitter and desire to have his logic used to gamesolve, regardless of whether that's actually correct or not, is very townie.

(...)
Rob is reading as an emotionally-charged townie.

I love it when people use the same words I do

On other topics;

VOTE: Menalque
I'm scumreading Menalque here. Compared to my previous experience with him, his thought process is much less cohesive and I find myself a bit confused by his play. I find 560 to be an example of that.

As a hot take, I think there's exactly one scum in {Menalque, skitter}

I really dislike this here.
1) how does being less cohesive = scummy?
2) The argument that it is less cohesive is based on 1 previous game meta (which is weak imo), and the example is post 560, which is also not very good?

Considering also that is used to jump on a fun bandwagon and avoids commenting on Pisskop while still placing him near the bottom of the readlist all while avoiding voicing any opinion towards him buddying Cinn.... Seems like a setup.

Cinn, how is Menalque scummier than Pisskop?
What do you have to say re: our feelings that he's pocketing you?

A setup for what exactly?
1) His thought process is less fluid and I have trouble seeing where he is coming from. His posts seem less likely to come from a town mindset because of that.
2) There's a little part of meta in that read but it's also I just see his actions as scummy independently. To point to another example, 586 is just a weird thought to have as town.

to 1) dude, this is literally saying the same thing with different words. You're saying it looks less fluid to you (aka less cohesive), therefore it's less likely a town mindset (aka scummy).
So I'll just say I disagree with you on how likely a incoherent train of thought is to come from scum. But I'll do you one more and say that it is much more likely to come from newer players, that you've said Menalque is.
So even considering that fact, you think that makes him most likely to be scum?

2) why? I don't see it. And also, why is this less cohesive and less fluid?


My feeling is that it's an easy setup for a mislynch on Menalque followed by a bus on Pisskop. He's positioned in such a way that you can both go for him later on without being out of the blue or change target if the town just so happens to start buying his claim and give him some town cred.

The fact you've remained mum about it, despite so much significant stuff having happened, some of it concerning you directly, seems like it is deliberate on your part so as to avoid taking a definitive stance on him.
The fact that your case on Menalque is also pretty weak imo doesn't help because it's looking like you're just trying to keep attention on Menalque, even if winging it at times.
You have also avoided answering my question that asked for a direct comparison between Menalque and Pisskop (how is one scummier than the other), which should be a fairly easy question to quickly answer if you were town trying to gamesolve. Not so much for a scumpartner.

Speaking of attention,

I don't like pisskop but I also don't think he's the lynch for today, which is why I turned my attention elsewhere.

The thing is some of it concerns you directly. I had to ask about the pocketing.
You can both comment on it and have your attention somewhere else. You didn't even give it a passing remark?
You can do both. Why wouldn't you do both?

Spoiler: Sidenote

If you're scum this is a really subtle slip! Look at the keyword there slipping out into your explanation.

Spoiler: Cinn quote re: pocketing

My point wasn't to say that you're scummy for doing so but to say that posts that avoid taking stances at this point are not a good reason to scumread somebody.

no worries.

I don't know much about his playstyle, but this kinda pinged me that he may be trying to pocket me more than anything else he said. I'm not sure why, it seemed kinda unnatural?. Either way he's trying to get me on his side so there's a very real chance it is pocketing.

Don't you think if I was really going for a mislynch on Menalque and a bus on pisskop I'd set this up a little better? It's obvious people don't believe my reasons for scumreading Menalque here and even as I continued my conversation with him my scumread was weakening. I've avoided talking about pisskop here because I think they're scummy but I'm not sure what to do with the doc claim outside of not lynch it today.

If you really want a direct comparison between Menalque and pisskop, I think pisskop is scummier right now. I see Menalque's play as trying harder to gamesolve than pisskop.

[Cinnamon]

Do you really see me not commenting on pisskop's supposed pocket as something I would do as pisskops scum buddy? That seems like a terrible idea honestly.

[Cinnamon]

It was more of 'i'm just gonna quickly skim through the game and see what I want to respond to' than willful ignorance.

[Cinnamon]

I'm starting to move towards the idea of one of Exilon/chennis being mafia, both of them are scumreading me but have gone about doing so in weird ways. I think this is a concerted effort to push towards a mislynch on a player they view as an easy target.

[Cinnamon]

I also find it hilarious that Exilon thinks I'm scummy for having a weak read on Menalque when he couldn't earlier understand why I thought he was scummy for having a weak read on Menalque.

[Exilon]

Do you really see me not commenting on pisskop's supposed pocket as something I would do as pisskops scum buddy? That seems like a terrible idea honestly.

"If I were scum...."

And yes, I do. Otherwise I wouldn't have said so.
I remain open to being convinced differently.

It was more of 'i'm just gonna quickly skim through the game and see what I want to respond to' than willful ignorance.

Selectiveness is as much about the things you tackle as it is about the things you don't tackle.
To be specific, my point is precisely how the things you didn't select should have been some of the fastest ones for town to go to on a skim, and it seems to me that you're conceding to that here.
I didn't accuse you of willfull ignorance.

I'm starting to move towards the idea of one of Exilon/chennis being mafia, both of them are scumreading me but have gone about doing so in weird ways. I think this is a concerted effort to push towards a mislynch on a player they view as an easy target.

If only of us is scum, how can we be making a concerted effort to target you?
If you mean to say we are a team, why would you say "one of"?
This doesn't make sense.

Menalque is an easy target. Pisskop is an easy target. You are not an easy target. I don't even know how town!you doesn't get this and goes as far as using it as a basis for any argument.

Also, this reads as if you're not confident that people can view you as town? <- just a feeling.

I also find it hilarious that Exilon thinks I'm scummy for having a weak read on Menalque when he couldn't earlier understand why I thought he was scummy for having a weak read on Menalque.

1) that's not the only reason I find you scummy and saying so is incredibly reductive, don't insult my intelligence;

2) The two cases are completely different.
a) the timing of it is different, that was early game out of RVS; this isn't;
b) I said right away, explicitly, that I was aware it was a weak read. I used it to get to other places. Otoh, you never said you though your case on Menalque was weak. Is it?
c) What I thought was scummy then wasn't you thinking I had a weak read, it was the way you went about it.

[Exilon]

I missed 662. A second.

[Exilon]

Don't you think if I was really going for a mislynch on Menalque and a bus on pisskop I'd set this up a little better?

It's obvious people don't believe my reasons for scumreading Menalque here and even as I continued my conversation with him my scumread was weakening. I've avoided talking about pisskop here because I think they're scummy but I'm not sure what to do with the doc claim outside of not lynch it today.

If you really want a direct comparison between Menalque and pisskop, I think pisskop is scummier right now. I see Menalque's play as trying harder to gamesolve than pisskop.

....huh, no?
How would you set it up a little better?

Regarding pisskop: huh.... say exactly that? Why wouldn't you say exactly that? Instead you had to be asked about him?

So then you have a conundrum here, don't you? If your case on Menalque is weakining and now Pisskopp is scummier, but you're unsure of their claim.... the thing you do... is accuse me and Dennis-chan ... of being a scum team?

If you think Menalque's thought process is hard to track, I have no clue what the inside of your head is like right now!

[Cinnamon]

I am conceding that it was weird that I didn't respond to the pisskop pocket claim; but even so if you think that's scummy I would think that would make me scummy on my own more than scummy as a team with pisskop.

I mean concerted effort in that one of you is pushing that to shade me as part of a larger gameplan, not that you are both doing it together.

I'm not confident that I can argue better than you can, and that's why I think you'd be making this push as mafia. It feels 'icky' to quote dannfloor to me because I think you're trying to make accusatory statements to make me 'slip up' rather than actually trying to gamesolve. I say this because I don't see you trying to reconsider my alignment at all.

[pisskop]

Exil is scum, when can you wagon him


Exil is apparently trying to shame people into voting.

[pisskop]

But i have done no reading to verify that.

[Cinnamon]

So then you have a conundrum here, don't you? If your case on Menalque is weakining and now Pisskopp is scummier, but you're unsure of their claim.... the thing you do... is accuse me and Dennis-chan ... of being a scum team?

Stuff like this is exactly what I mean. This just seems to be purposefully misrepping me and twisting what I've said, without actually trying to engage me on my play.

[Cinnamon]

I'm gonna take a bit of a break from this game. This push on me is starting to feel really gross and I hope people can see that.