Mini Normal 2081 — My First Game! [Game Over]

[chennisden]

shading me is against your wincon as either alignment

[chennisden]

im not feeling it anymore

UNVOTE:

[chennisden]

if we get nothing i'd be down to circle back to cinnamon

but rn i want to sort pisskop

[chennisden]

i believe the claim less and less each day

[pisskop]

i asked you to show me where you think I'm wrong.

you have tangented into this thing where you raise your hands and say 'im not responsible' in the most conspicuously unflattering way

[pisskop]

drop me a realist from you and I'll discourse you later

[chennisden]

I also don't like this kind of hedging on pisskop:

and it's not hedging, it's me saying multiple things:

a) in an ideal universe i'd like a sketchy claim to be resolved by being nk'd. like if someone claims cop and they're not dead before endgame that's p suspicious. so like in a vaccuum a doc claim i'd kinda expect to be dead overnight - which means i don't have to sort it or resolve it or think about it too much, it'll get taken care of for me

the thing is that if someone is scummy enough scum might not nk them because they think they can mislynch them - which means that the slot won't flip at night from getting nk'd, which means it is my problem and i have to try to figure it out

that's basically what i was trying to express there - which universe do we live in - the one where town!pisskop get's nk'd, or the one where he doesn't. and rn i think it's the latter if pisskop is town, which means i need to figure out the claim
and rn my feeling is that i don't believe it but lynching it before massclaim or a night is dumb so lynching him today is not a good idea and i'll re-evaluate tomorrow
b) ungated cops in a micro are p unlikely, which is another reason why i'm skeptical

you're confusing nuance and trying to evaluate the claim from several angles as 'hedging'

i've done this as scum before in the one of many games RAS ended before it was completed

he was in the lynchpool and might've been lynched for our win

[chennisden]

ordered - {chenn exilon skitter dann}
{gamma luv}
{menalque pisskop cinnamon}

[chennisden]

ive seen a lot of doc lynches go through despite the doc being obviously legit. but im not going to tell people to stop touching pisskop's slot because this slot is something that NEEDS to be touched.

[chennisden]

i asked you to show me where you think I'm wrong.

you have tangented into this thing where you raise your hands and say 'im not responsible' in the most conspicuously unflattering way

exilon and dann are obv town

your other two reads i dont have much problem with

[chennisden]

oh right i also hard disagree with your cinnamon townread

[chennisden]

if RAS told me the team was cinnamon/pisskop i could see it

[chennisden]

cinnamon is posting so much more townie that it feels like he's been coached

[chennisden]

and i think pisskop would take a defensive stance on cinnamon at this point of the game

[chennisden]

but idk pisskop might fake a commit to a push on his buddy

[pisskop]

He can't be coached if there's no daytalk. there's no rule stating daytalk exists in this normal game.


thats p reachy chenn

[chennisden]

I'm gonna have a long day ahead of me today and not much time to post; I wanna try and touch on a heatpoint for me rq tho

@cinn
Regarding what Menalque pointed out about you scumreading those that push you or scumread you. What are your thoughts on that feedback? I would like if you could go as deep as possible on this.

I think it's fair. In my completed game as well as this one I've pushed on almost everybody that's pushed on me, I find it's easier to determine their alignment and if they're actually trying to sort me by pressuring them.

Spoiler:

One thing that I would really like to hear about are reads on the SEs and their interactions so far. I really don't like that they are all thinking along the same lines, as they generally think that the mafia are between Bob, Voted, and myself and unless the team is exactly Bob/Voted they're wrong FMPOV. I'm not reading town from either Bob or Voted but I think it would be useful to see other possibilities entertained as it seems somewhat suspicious to me that three different people with experience in the game would come to very similar wrong conclusions if they are all town. What seems more likely in my eyes is that there is at least one mafia there who is doing a great job at misleading town.

I apologize on one part; when I looked through yesterday I thought I saw a townread on Bob from you, when that was somebody else.

You seemed inconsistent when you posted about pushing a team of Bob/myself when that was clearly quite unlikely, then shifting to talking about a Bob/Voted team despite having mentioned me specifically as acting scummy a number of times without specific mention of either of Bob or Voted. I thought that was weird.

I mean I’m not just unvoting because i think he’s mislynch bait
He doesn’t show survivalism

I’m really struggling to nail down any strong scumreads
Navneet might be scum and I’d compromise there
Someone sell me on town!cinnamon because their participation in marathons showed me they are skilled as scum

I haven't really talked about this at all yet, but you've been constantly bringing up the idea that I seem scummy. Is there anything in particular that makes you feel this way? It seems really odd that you've been focusing on me so much with statements like this that aren't talking about what I've been doing in this game that is indicative of scum.

Menalque, could you explain why you think me townreading you in two posts is 'trying to pocket [you] super hard' whereas Irrelephant (for example) townreading you in really the same number of posts is not?

I struggle to see the logic behind that.

Irrelephant then Menalque pushed me there for reasons that don't make a large amount of sense to me, which I find pretty suspicious.

Brief thoughts from mobile:

I don’t have much faith in tone as a way of reading things and I still think eggs has done the scummiest thing so far objectively. That said, I’m aware that he’s being mostly read as town who made a genuine slip. For now, I’m leaving my vote where it is, but I’ll change if (a) someone does something I think is objectively more scummy or (b) we start getting closer to the deadline and there’s still no appetite for an eggs wagon.

Regarding SEs: I’m encouraged by the fact they’re reading similarly. If there were only two, I’d be a lot more concerned that they were mafia backing each other. In the current situation I feel like the third would have called them.

If we’re not going for eggs then I’d be okay with getting on voted or cinnamon. I honestly don’t see why Bob is being scumread. I’ll try to post something longer tomorrow.

Another question for you Menalque - I notice that here, you state that you were comfortable with the SEs because they were all reading similarly and they had yet to call each other out. In your reads list, you also have all three SEs at the top of your town list. Has recent discussion from them done anything to change your opinion on this?

Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.

Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, Cinnamon. We need a lynch. I’m still hoping that it will be voted, but unless some more people get on board, it’s looking like that might not happen. Although I’d still be happy to lynch eggs, I think that’s unlikely. So that leaves, in my eyes, you or nav!slot. I’m not sold on nav as I think he went inactive too early in the game to read him as scum.

You, on the other hand, I’ve been going back and forth on but I’ve always thought eggs and voted seemed more susp than you. If neither of those wagons is happening, then I’m okay with lynching you. I’m not omniscient so I could well be wrong about eggs and/or voted, they’re just my best picks based on the evidence so far as I see it.

If you do flip town, then that means we went the wrong direction D1 and indicates to me that we should go for the person who’s seemed scummiest so far (i.e. Voted). I also note that you ignored that I did say that if the nightkill revealed additional information then I’d be happy to go another direction D2.

The fact that you’re misrepresenting what I was saying and portraying a perfectly logical argument (we need a lynch, the two lunches I prefer don’t seem to be going right now, you’re the best lynch for being plausible scum and giving information) as illogical isn’t helping your case.

The thing is that I think that if we lynched cinnamon and he flipped scum then it throws off a lot. So I kinda wanna lynch him for that reason. But if we lynch voted and he flips scum then that'd leave me feeling good about an eggs/nav!slot Lynch D2.

Either way, I don't think I'm pushing you that hard right now, but I'm open to getting on you because I think lynching you would be one of the best options in terms of overall information, see #338.

To me this literally states that your reason for lynching me is primarily for information. I don't believe I misrepresented anything you were saying.

Secondly, I ignored the part about power roles because I don't think Voted would be a good check even if there was a Neapolitan/Cop in the game. There's much more influential players and knowing their alignments would be much more useful. If we are talking about ignoring parts of the other person's post, I notice you did not respond at all to what I said about how players that look to be advancing the game are not necessarily doing it to the benefit of town.

I'm not liking Cinnamon near the start. I find he's playing it a bit safe. Especially around 154. I don't like how after Irrelephant challenges what he said he still posts that he thinks irrelephant is scummy but then after seems to backpedal a bit by saying he's not that scummy though and removing his vote. Also some of his wording in 154 seemed safe to me. (Small inconsistencies instead of just inconsistencies, saying it could just be this but I see it more of this makes backpedaling after easier.)

I like eggs for town. Mainly because of 102 (But I like his posts in general). If he were scum he's really not attempting to keep his options open and even when he found some minor things he didn't like he wasn't actively trying to push it which reads as town to me.

Eggs and Cinnamon are my stronger town reads right now.

What made you change your mind about cinnamon?

I think I like menalque. His entrance while being fluff came off as natural. I don't like his push on eggs but he does make some good points that seem like they could come from a town scumhunting pov even though they are a bit of a stretch as someone mentioned. I do like his points made against voted though. His scumhunting appears to be natural to me.

Also related to above, I didn't feel Voted's defense to Menalque's push was sufficient. Self-meta especially is never a good argument in my opinion.

Irrelephant is a strong townlean.

I am also starting to like Eggs less, I previously had a null read on them but their last few posts have seemed somewhat scummy to me.

Can you elaborate on this?



As of now I would be most willing to lynch cinnamon or Voted but I would much rather vote on cinnamon for now.
VOTE: cinnamon

Frankly, I'm starting to become a bit frustrated that flimsy arguments like this have been pushed against me for the whole game. Irrelephant has been doing it this whole time and now other people are jumping in on it. I can't see how you see just purely early game tone as 'playing it a bit safe' - I've been posting this whole time with all my opinions out there and I think that this particular argument should not hold water. When I unvoted I was unvoting flavor, who I was townreading. I was not unvoting irrelephant. There was no backpedal there at all, just me pointing out something I thought was peculiar from irrelephant but also recognizing that it is a weak read.

This was all from my last game, I basically pushed back on anybody pushing me to determine if they were doing it in good faith or not.

you also tell people that their cases are flimsy when that is anything but true.

i think that's a

you

thing rather than a scum thing. if you're town you want to charisma your way out of a lynch

you also tend to hard spew the people pushing you as town

[chennisden]

read rule 19 pls

[chennisden]

daytalk is also the standard

[chennisden]

yup i think i've hit something.

[pisskop]

if and when i do catch up. will i find adequate case against cinnabun from you?

[chennisden]

yes

[chennisden]

my interaction with cinnamon spews me town and heavily implies he's scum

[chennisden]

if you didn't read it yet i'll give you a pass for now.

[pisskop]

p: so it is.

but i mean that implies you think Im good enough to coach him. you don't know me first of all.

second, if I'm reading you right buns been posting so obvtown you think it's suspect to be that town?

third, thats baseless accusations that also apply to any player worth their age. Dann, rob, luv, amd exil