I fairly hard-TR cinnamon as a newb
I did kind of force the initial melanque push.
LUV is scummy
I mostly tred rob
I felt less that about dann
and if you are town it should be simple to see that.
but i mean that implies you think Im good enough to coach him. you don't know me first of all.
I've played with your alt.
second, if I'm reading you right buns been posting so obvtown you think it's suspect to be that town?
He's not obvtown. He's just not posting as obvscum anymore and I don't think a newbie usually has the self awareness to back off like that in a manner that gets everyone off of him.
third, thats baseless accusations that also apply to any player worth their age. Dann, rob, luv, amd exil
I think it's most likely you because of the timing. Exil wouldn't have bussed cinnamon to the point where it spews me town, LUV would've done it earlier, Dann would've done it earlier, and it happened after rob replaced out.
In post 957, Exilon wrote:I'm gonna have a long day ahead of me today and not much time to post; I wanna try and touch on a heatpoint for me rq tho
@cinn
Regarding what Menalque pointed out about you scumreading those that push you or scumread you. What are your thoughts on that feedback? I would like if you could go as deep as possible on this.
I think it's fair. In my completed game as well as this one I've pushed on almost everybody that's pushed on me, I find it's easier to determine their alignment and if they're actually trying to sort me by pressuring them.
Spoiler:
In post 152, Cinnamon wrote:One thing that I would really like to hear about are reads on the SEs and their interactions so far. I really don't like that they are all thinking along the same lines, as they generally think that the mafia are between Bob, Voted, and myself and unless the team is exactly Bob/Voted they're wrong FMPOV. I'm not reading town from either Bob or Voted but I think it would be useful to see other possibilities entertained as it seems somewhat suspicious to me that three different people with experience in the game would come to very similar wrong conclusions if they are all town. What seems more likely in my eyes is that there is at least one mafia there who is doing a great job at misleading town.
In post 158, Cinnamon wrote:I apologize on one part; when I looked through yesterday I thought I saw a townread on Bob from you, when that was somebody else.
You seemed inconsistent when you posted about pushing a team of Bob/myself when that was clearly quite unlikely, then shifting to talking about a Bob/Voted team despite having mentioned me specifically as acting scummy a number of times without specific mention of either of Bob or Voted. I thought that was weird.
In post 333, Irrelephant11 wrote:I mean I’m not just unvoting because i think he’s mislynch bait
He doesn’t show survivalism
I’m really struggling to nail down any strong scumreads
Navneet might be scum and I’d compromise there
Someone sell me on town!cinnamon because their participation in marathons showed me they are skilled as scum
I haven't really talked about this at all yet, but you've been constantly bringing up the idea that I seem scummy. Is there anything in particular that makes you feel this way? It seems really odd that you've been focusing on me so much with statements like this that aren't talking about what I've been doing in this game that is indicative of scum.
In post 342, Cinnamon wrote:Menalque, could you explain why you think me townreading you in two posts is 'trying to pocket [you] super hard' whereas Irrelephant (for example) townreading you in really the same number of posts is not?
In post 345, Cinnamon wrote:Irrelephant then Menalque pushed me there for reasons that don't make a large amount of sense to me, which I find pretty suspicious.
I don’t have much faith in tone as a way of reading things and I still think eggs has done the scummiest thing so far objectively. That said, I’m aware that he’s being mostly read as town who made a genuine slip. For now, I’m leaving my vote where it is, but I’ll change if (a) someone does something I think is objectively more scummy or (b) we start getting closer to the deadline and there’s still no appetite for an eggs wagon.
Regarding SEs: I’m encouraged by the fact they’re reading similarly. If there were only two, I’d be a lot more concerned that they were mafia backing each other. In the current situation I feel like the third would have called them.
If we’re not going for eggs then I’d be okay with getting on voted or cinnamon. I honestly don’t see why Bob is being scumread. I’ll try to post something longer tomorrow.
Another question for you Menalque - I notice that here, you state that you were comfortable with the SEs because they were all reading similarly and they had yet to call each other out. In your reads list, you also have all three SEs at the top of your town list. Has recent discussion from them done anything to change your opinion on this?
In post 350, Cinnamon wrote:Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.
In post 350, Cinnamon wrote:Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, Cinnamon. We need a lynch. I’m still hoping that it will be voted, but unless some more people get on board, it’s looking like that might not happen. Although I’d still be happy to lynch eggs, I think that’s unlikely. So that leaves, in my eyes, you or nav!slot. I’m not sold on nav as I think he went inactive too early in the game to read him as scum.
You, on the other hand, I’ve been going back and forth on but I’ve always thought eggs and voted seemed more susp than you. If neither of those wagons is happening, then I’m okay with lynching you. I’m not omniscient so I could well be wrong about eggs and/or voted, they’re just my best picks based on the evidence so far as I see it.
If you do flip town, then that means we went the wrong direction D1 and indicates to me that we should go for the person who’s seemed scummiest so far (i.e. Voted). I also note that you ignored that I did say that if the nightkill revealed additional information then I’d be happy to go another direction D2.
The fact that you’re misrepresenting what I was saying and portraying a perfectly logical argument (we need a lynch, the two lunches I prefer don’t seem to be going right now, you’re the best lynch for being plausible scum and giving information) as illogical isn’t helping your case.
In post 338, Menalque wrote:
The thing is that I think that if we lynched cinnamon and he flipped scum then it throws off a lot. So I kinda wanna lynch him for that reason. But if we lynch voted and he flips scum then that'd leave me feeling good about an eggs/nav!slot Lynch D2.
In post 348, Menalque wrote:
Either way, I don't think I'm pushing you that hard right now, but I'm open to getting on you because I think lynching you would be one of the best options in terms of overall information, see #338.
To me this literally states that your reason for lynching me is primarily for information. I don't believe I misrepresented anything you were saying.
Secondly, I ignored the part about power roles because I don't think Voted would be a good check even if there was a Neapolitan/Cop in the game. There's much more influential players and knowing their alignments would be much more useful. If we are talking about ignoring parts of the other person's post, I notice you did not respond at all to what I said about how players that look to be advancing the game are not necessarily doing it to the benefit of town.
In post 363, Raya36 wrote:I'm not liking Cinnamon near the start. I find he's playing it a bit safe. Especially around 154. I don't like how after Irrelephant challenges what he said he still posts that he thinks irrelephant is scummy but then after seems to backpedal a bit by saying he's not that scummy though and removing his vote. Also some of his wording in 154 seemed safe to me. (Small inconsistencies instead of just inconsistencies, saying it could just be this but I see it more of this makes backpedaling after easier.)
I like eggs for town. Mainly because of 102 (But I like his posts in general). If he were scum he's really not attempting to keep his options open and even when he found some minor things he didn't like he wasn't actively trying to push it which reads as town to me.
I think I like menalque. His entrance while being fluff came off as natural. I don't like his push on eggs but he does make some good points that seem like they could come from a town scumhunting pov even though they are a bit of a stretch as someone mentioned. I do like his points made against voted though. His scumhunting appears to be natural to me.
Also related to above, I didn't feel Voted's defense to Menalque's push was sufficient. Self-meta especially is never a good argument in my opinion.
Irrelephant is a strong townlean.
In post 344, Cinnamon wrote:I am also starting to like Eggs less, I previously had a null read on them but their last few posts have seemed somewhat scummy to me.
Can you elaborate on this?
As of now I would be most willing to lynch cinnamon or Voted but I would much rather vote on cinnamon for now. VOTE: cinnamon
Frankly, I'm starting to become a bit frustrated that flimsy arguments like this have been pushed against me for the whole game. Irrelephant has been doing it this whole time and now other people are jumping in on it. I can't see how you see just purely early game tone as 'playing it a bit safe' - I've been posting this whole time with all my opinions out there and I think that this particular argument should not hold water. When I unvoted I was unvoting flavor, who I was townreading. I was not unvoting irrelephant. There was no backpedal there at all, just me pointing out something I thought was peculiar from irrelephant but also recognizing that it is a weak read.
This was all from my last game, I basically pushed back on anybody pushing me to determine if they were doing it in good faith or not.
I appreciate this. I understand that you pushing on a push is a space where you can better pinpoint if someone is scum or not. Is this correct?
Why do you think you have that tendency?
Do you think it's an advantage or that it hinders you?
Yes that's why I push on people that push on me.
I do it because I learned from IRL experience this is the most accurate way I know how to read people. In the game I linked, the first two people I pushed like that (Irrelephant, Menalque) were town, and pushing them weakened my scumread on the first and strengthed my townread on the second. The third person that pushed me (Raya) was mafia, and I ended up putting my vote there getting mafia lynched d1. It's an advantage in that I get way better reads but it doesn't make me look very townie for doing so.
There have been people engaging you on those grounds and I haven't seen this pointed raised.
Is there a reason why you haven't mentioned this playstyle trait before this moment?
beeboy - Everyone thought this game was made to troll pie but it was really made to troll pisskop. Almost50 pisskop: Overall, that's a townie slot. Don't ask for specifics because with PK everything can be interpreted either way. It's probably WHEN he says/does things that matter, so it's more of a matter of conception rather than solid reasoning.
In post 957, Exilon wrote:I'm gonna have a long day ahead of me today and not much time to post; I wanna try and touch on a heatpoint for me rq tho
@cinn
Regarding what Menalque pointed out about you scumreading those that push you or scumread you. What are your thoughts on that feedback? I would like if you could go as deep as possible on this.
I think it's fair. In my completed game as well as this one I've pushed on almost everybody that's pushed on me, I find it's easier to determine their alignment and if they're actually trying to sort me by pressuring them.
Spoiler:
In post 152, Cinnamon wrote:One thing that I would really like to hear about are reads on the SEs and their interactions so far. I really don't like that they are all thinking along the same lines, as they generally think that the mafia are between Bob, Voted, and myself and unless the team is exactly Bob/Voted they're wrong FMPOV. I'm not reading town from either Bob or Voted but I think it would be useful to see other possibilities entertained as it seems somewhat suspicious to me that three different people with experience in the game would come to very similar wrong conclusions if they are all town. What seems more likely in my eyes is that there is at least one mafia there who is doing a great job at misleading town.
In post 158, Cinnamon wrote:I apologize on one part; when I looked through yesterday I thought I saw a townread on Bob from you, when that was somebody else.
You seemed inconsistent when you posted about pushing a team of Bob/myself when that was clearly quite unlikely, then shifting to talking about a Bob/Voted team despite having mentioned me specifically as acting scummy a number of times without specific mention of either of Bob or Voted. I thought that was weird.
In post 333, Irrelephant11 wrote:I mean I’m not just unvoting because i think he’s mislynch bait
He doesn’t show survivalism
I’m really struggling to nail down any strong scumreads
Navneet might be scum and I’d compromise there
Someone sell me on town!cinnamon because their participation in marathons showed me they are skilled as scum
I haven't really talked about this at all yet, but you've been constantly bringing up the idea that I seem scummy. Is there anything in particular that makes you feel this way? It seems really odd that you've been focusing on me so much with statements like this that aren't talking about what I've been doing in this game that is indicative of scum.
In post 342, Cinnamon wrote:Menalque, could you explain why you think me townreading you in two posts is 'trying to pocket [you] super hard' whereas Irrelephant (for example) townreading you in really the same number of posts is not?
In post 345, Cinnamon wrote:Irrelephant then Menalque pushed me there for reasons that don't make a large amount of sense to me, which I find pretty suspicious.
I don’t have much faith in tone as a way of reading things and I still think eggs has done the scummiest thing so far objectively. That said, I’m aware that he’s being mostly read as town who made a genuine slip. For now, I’m leaving my vote where it is, but I’ll change if (a) someone does something I think is objectively more scummy or (b) we start getting closer to the deadline and there’s still no appetite for an eggs wagon.
Regarding SEs: I’m encouraged by the fact they’re reading similarly. If there were only two, I’d be a lot more concerned that they were mafia backing each other. In the current situation I feel like the third would have called them.
If we’re not going for eggs then I’d be okay with getting on voted or cinnamon. I honestly don’t see why Bob is being scumread. I’ll try to post something longer tomorrow.
Another question for you Menalque - I notice that here, you state that you were comfortable with the SEs because they were all reading similarly and they had yet to call each other out. In your reads list, you also have all three SEs at the top of your town list. Has recent discussion from them done anything to change your opinion on this?
In post 350, Cinnamon wrote:Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.
In post 350, Cinnamon wrote:Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, Cinnamon. We need a lynch. I’m still hoping that it will be voted, but unless some more people get on board, it’s looking like that might not happen. Although I’d still be happy to lynch eggs, I think that’s unlikely. So that leaves, in my eyes, you or nav!slot. I’m not sold on nav as I think he went inactive too early in the game to read him as scum.
You, on the other hand, I’ve been going back and forth on but I’ve always thought eggs and voted seemed more susp than you. If neither of those wagons is happening, then I’m okay with lynching you. I’m not omniscient so I could well be wrong about eggs and/or voted, they’re just my best picks based on the evidence so far as I see it.
If you do flip town, then that means we went the wrong direction D1 and indicates to me that we should go for the person who’s seemed scummiest so far (i.e. Voted). I also note that you ignored that I did say that if the nightkill revealed additional information then I’d be happy to go another direction D2.
The fact that you’re misrepresenting what I was saying and portraying a perfectly logical argument (we need a lynch, the two lunches I prefer don’t seem to be going right now, you’re the best lynch for being plausible scum and giving information) as illogical isn’t helping your case.
In post 338, Menalque wrote:
The thing is that I think that if we lynched cinnamon and he flipped scum then it throws off a lot. So I kinda wanna lynch him for that reason. But if we lynch voted and he flips scum then that'd leave me feeling good about an eggs/nav!slot Lynch D2.
In post 348, Menalque wrote:
Either way, I don't think I'm pushing you that hard right now, but I'm open to getting on you because I think lynching you would be one of the best options in terms of overall information, see #338.
To me this literally states that your reason for lynching me is primarily for information. I don't believe I misrepresented anything you were saying.
Secondly, I ignored the part about power roles because I don't think Voted would be a good check even if there was a Neapolitan/Cop in the game. There's much more influential players and knowing their alignments would be much more useful. If we are talking about ignoring parts of the other person's post, I notice you did not respond at all to what I said about how players that look to be advancing the game are not necessarily doing it to the benefit of town.
In post 363, Raya36 wrote:I'm not liking Cinnamon near the start. I find he's playing it a bit safe. Especially around 154. I don't like how after Irrelephant challenges what he said he still posts that he thinks irrelephant is scummy but then after seems to backpedal a bit by saying he's not that scummy though and removing his vote. Also some of his wording in 154 seemed safe to me. (Small inconsistencies instead of just inconsistencies, saying it could just be this but I see it more of this makes backpedaling after easier.)
I like eggs for town. Mainly because of 102 (But I like his posts in general). If he were scum he's really not attempting to keep his options open and even when he found some minor things he didn't like he wasn't actively trying to push it which reads as town to me.
I think I like menalque. His entrance while being fluff came off as natural. I don't like his push on eggs but he does make some good points that seem like they could come from a town scumhunting pov even though they are a bit of a stretch as someone mentioned. I do like his points made against voted though. His scumhunting appears to be natural to me.
Also related to above, I didn't feel Voted's defense to Menalque's push was sufficient. Self-meta especially is never a good argument in my opinion.
Irrelephant is a strong townlean.
In post 344, Cinnamon wrote:I am also starting to like Eggs less, I previously had a null read on them but their last few posts have seemed somewhat scummy to me.
Can you elaborate on this?
As of now I would be most willing to lynch cinnamon or Voted but I would much rather vote on cinnamon for now. VOTE: cinnamon
Frankly, I'm starting to become a bit frustrated that flimsy arguments like this have been pushed against me for the whole game. Irrelephant has been doing it this whole time and now other people are jumping in on it. I can't see how you see just purely early game tone as 'playing it a bit safe' - I've been posting this whole time with all my opinions out there and I think that this particular argument should not hold water. When I unvoted I was unvoting flavor, who I was townreading. I was not unvoting irrelephant. There was no backpedal there at all, just me pointing out something I thought was peculiar from irrelephant but also recognizing that it is a weak read.
This was all from my last game, I basically pushed back on anybody pushing me to determine if they were doing it in good faith or not.
you also tell people that their cases are flimsy when that is anything but true.
i think that's a
you
thing rather than a scum thing. if you're town you want to charisma your way out of a lynch
you also tend to hard spew the people pushing you as town
Everything that's just said here is awful. Yes, when I say I push people that push me I do sometimes make up reasons to push them and I know those reasons can be made up. Regardless, it helps me figure out their alignment. I don't see how you can't see that. Maybe we have different playing philosophies but as town I try to find the mafia rather than avoid a mislynch. Your third point here I just can't even understand.
i know I'm a fat hypocrite, but learn the right way before the social way
beeboy - Everyone thought this game was made to troll pie but it was really made to troll pisskop. Almost50 pisskop: Overall, that's a townie slot. Don't ask for specifics because with PK everything can be interpreted either way. It's probably WHEN he says/does things that matter, so it's more of a matter of conception rather than solid reasoning.
They aren't fake reads per se, I know if somebody's pushing me they're either wrong or scum so I have something to go off of. That's primarily why I push them in the first place.
In post 1059, Cinnamon wrote:They aren't fake reads per se, I know if somebody's pushing me they're either wrong or scum so I have something to go off of. That's primarily why I push them in the first place.
To add to this, as an example look at when I called out skitter for pocketing chennis. Do I think it's really likely? No, but I see it as a very strong reason why skitter might be calling me scum there if she is scum.
Here's what I'm struggling with:
By what you just said, you are clearly aware that your playstyle tends to be to push back against people that push you;
then you admit that you're also aware that in order to capitalize on this, you sometimes make up some reasons or exaggerate on you call out;
Now this is clearly a very risky gambit, some players will catch up to this and call you out on it. Right? You're also aware of this, as you say you understand that people view as scummy.
But apparently when some of us did exactly that in this game, me, chennis, skitter,
your reaction was of high frustration and confusion, to the point where I stopped the back and forth entirely.
Which to me doesn't make sense according to your own words, because, if you're aware it makes you awfully scummy, and you're experienced with applying the strategy, you should also at this point certainly be prepared for people calling you out on it, and pushing you for it.
It's because my experience primarily comes from IRL mafia, and the meta is obviously a lot different there. I also think I just get more frustrated in general when conversations are dragged out over hours or days rather than a minute or two, so my experience on mafiascum is vastly different. I didn't get pushed to this extent in my last newbie game and I'm also just not understanding a lot of what's going on right now, which is why I made the comment that I'm playing a completely different game. That's where all the frustration comes from.
In post 1059, Cinnamon wrote:They aren't fake reads per se, I know if somebody's pushing me they're either wrong or scum so I have something to go off of. That's primarily why I push them in the first place.
There's also this to add to the confusion.
You say your behaviour when applying this playstyle is scummy. If understandably people push you for it, then they're not actually wrong, are they?
How does your strategy work then?
In post 1070, Cinnamon wrote:It's because my experience primarily comes from IRL mafia, and the meta is obviously a lot different there. I also think I just get more frustrated in general when conversations are dragged out over hours or days rather than a minute or two, so my experience on mafiascum is vastly different. I didn't get pushed to this extent in my last newbie game and I'm also just not understanding a lot of what's going on right now, which is why I made the comment that I'm playing a completely different game. That's where all the frustration comes from.
So are you saying you can dish out the heat but you can't take it?
I'm just thinking how likely it is that town!you reaches that close to boiling point without outing that part of it was purposefully exaggerated as part of your strategy?
