In post 1520, chennisden wrote:I have to go so my last comment will be that your basis for pushing me was fundamentally flawed and if you actually wanted to sort me you should've looked deeper at my crumbs
And if you're town please admit this so we can work together
a) i fundementally disagree that my basis for pushing you is flawed
b) i don't understand how else i was supposed to look at your crumbs, i took them to the logical conclusions and acted based on what i understood them to be
c) why are you appealing to me rn
and g'night!
i have work but should be here hopefully before deadline tom night
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
In post 1495, skitter30 wrote:being informed isn't something that i woudlnt' lynch day1 ... it's not in the same league as a doc, not even remotely
like i thought you were informed; informed isn't a role that would inherently make me not lynch someone day1, so i pushed it
i don't understand the problem you're having
like are you really trying to say that it's problematic to push informed or macho or something similar day1 ?
In post 1020, chennisden wrote:IF YOU ARE A POWER ROLE -- ANY POWER ROLE -- DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM. WAGON PISSKOP.
Does this not heavily imply that another pr existing is not possible? Your push implies that you haven't been actually reading and that's something scum can afford to do
why the fuck based off of that would i assume that another strong pr was you
Because 2 PRs is normal and 3 is not
I'm asking you to see NOW that your basis for scumread is terrible. Would've been better before but you know what they say. The second best time is now
like ... what is this
do you not know how normal games work or ....
you do know that there can be more than 2 prs in a normal game, right?
i disagree that the reasons for the scumread is horrible. you didn't explain why it is either, you're just calling it that
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
In post 1495, skitter30 wrote:being informed isn't something that i woudlnt' lynch day1 ... it's not in the same league as a doc, not even remotely
like i thought you were informed; informed isn't a role that would inherently make me not lynch someone day1, so i pushed it
i don't understand the problem you're having
like are you really trying to say that it's problematic to push informed or macho or something similar day1 ?
i don't understand what you're tryign to say
pedit g'night
pedit2 how the fuck was i supposed to know that, how does that change anything, because i obviously didn't knwo that at the time
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
like the fundemental premise here seems to be that it's inherently bad/scummy to push pr claims day1, which is ridiculous because:
a) not all pr claims are inherently worht not lynching
b) some people are scummy and they get lynched despite the claim, and guess what, sometimes they're scum
c) you were ok pushing pisskop
like the logical conclusion for the basis of your scumread is that pr claims/softs should never be pushed day1, which is .... a really dumb way to approach mafia
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
like are you really trying to argue that you've never seen a 9p game with more than 2 town prs ...?
and that you believe that a 9p game *can't* have more than 2 town prs ?
and yeah other people might want to weigh in on this
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
that's not what you were arguing earlier, and you know it
that dosn't even make sense in the context of your earlier argument (ie that i should have backed off because you were softing pr and there can't be more than 2 prs in a micro normal)
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
The more recent frustration he’s been showing is town and to be honest, I never quite fully understood the strong scum reads he’s garnered most of the game.
In post 1430, skitter30 wrote:he played here 2017-early 2018
and he basically used the 'spam-posting and interrupt the thread' to incredibly good effect, and he won several scumgames off of it
chenn is reminding me of that rn
i'm trying to find an example of where mulch describes that strategy, but it's been over a year so it's alittle tricky
It’s been a minute since I’ve caught up with Mulch but I don’t think he’s Chen. Similar styles but not similar in tone. Mulch likes to prove people wrong on his alt accounts by showing he can win by not flooding the thread and making the game state chaotic. I’ve seen him play drastically different on these accounts and more like how the people on Mafia Universe play. Fissure and Wrangle are two of the many he has.
I know the posts you’re referring too but I’ll be on site all night if I try to find them. I said a similar thing in our last game together though so I can vouch that’s it’s valid scum tactic.
In post 1432, Exilon wrote:Regarding Cinn, keep in mind this actually isn't mega exhaustive, so there may be more examples that also hold.
976 and 986 Cinn shows he's aware of "push on pushers" (tm) strategy he employs. IT's the most accurate way he reads people.
He says he learned this from IRL mafia. The wording implies Cinn is very experienced and aware of this trait, especially of the backlash it garners. So one could induce she's developed the strat.
Then 1057 and 1059 happen, and this is where Cinn puts a foot in the mouth by saying that sometimes he makes up reasons for pushing back; that if someone's pushing him they're either wrong or scum.
You can't be both experienced and aware of this kind of playstyle if you haven't yet learned any of: a) you shouldn't need made up reasons to push back; b) you don't need to exaggerate to push back; c) sometimes you are in fact scummy and people aren't wrong nor scummy for pushing you; d) everyone pushing you can be town.
Specifically in this game, c) and d) are very likely true, but Cinn does not, at any point, consider this, even when I threw him the proverbial bait to do so. So the way Cinn places the confidence in those initial posts that seem to imply that he is very townie because he always applies this strategy loses solidity. Cinn is either not that experienced, or trying to cover his scum play by attributing it and forcefully squeeze it to his own town meta.
But if it were the first case, Cinn would very likely be open to different approaches and wouldn't be leaning so strongly on, and would most likely be much less confident in his own strat.
When I look at Cinn's ISO with this mindset in mind, things fit and make sense to me. E.g. 1063 is one example of Cinn going "this was part of the strat".
There's also the disconnect that shows up regarding "this is my strat" and "I got frustrated when I couldn't take the heat".
before we go, 646 Cinn mentions extensive exp in irl mafia.
1070 and 1091 are the example here. First thing is how Cinn mentions the IRL mafia experience and downplays its relevance; the narrative is thus "I learned that I was good at doing this in IRL mafia and now I'm applying it here". And also justifies the frustration that he felt, basically, Cinn got frustrated because the length and nature of the discussion is different. Also certain types of comments also upset him ("when people choose to be anti-town / dumb / incapable").
I can actually sort of follow this. My problem with this is everything that Cinn mentions here also happens in IRL mafia, and in a game where typically everything is much more fast paced, it's very easy to get very overwhelmed with anti-town statements, very fast. So Cinn either plays with very mild groups and highly intelligent people in IRL mafia, or he's trying to justify his frustration on something that looks townie (but as I have also mentioned, isn't exactly AI).
Also, 1102 gives us Cinn adding another reason to why he's frustrated, "scum getting to me", but 1104 corrects it back to the posts above. Cinn is still laser-focused on there being scum on people that have pushed him according to this, .... or not, which is a great segue into:
The next example and disconnect is how Cinn says all of this actually produced reads from all of this, which from his words earlier, should be better and good and strong.
But then they're not.
At all.
1087 is an example ("I don't think the collective push from exi/chennius/skitter is all town") 1116 is skitter and maybe someone else is also scum? 1330 is Cinn declaring an order of skitter / pisskop / chennis / lux / exi which has me in a very town spot already (there are 2 people left in this order) but in the same post cinn makes a point of saying that he would townread me more under certain conditions, and I don't feel town reinforces that point there if they're sure about their reads 1331 is an admittance to me actually not being *that sorted* after all 1391 is
actually not being sold on skitter
and 1398 is just a summary of how Cinn isn't actually that sure and strong on his reads
So in conclusion, taking into consideration that Cinn has said he has tried to let his thoughts flow more, is town!Cinn really that disconnected between what he claims he has and what he actually has on his hand?
While thinking about that question, notice the awareness Cinn displays about his play in 1102.
Spoiler: I found this while I was looking at his ISO again
. Scum menalque has no reason to come in and hard defend me vs Exilon chennis and skitter pushing when sheeoing them would not pull a scumread.
Does town ever go out of their way to purposefully characterize their own lynch as a mislynch in a passing sentence? Food for thought.
For the conclusion of the first part, I think that is when you have to consider his personality. It’s possible that Cinn is very stubborn. Stubbornness is a trait that’s really hard to change in part because of fluid intelligence vs. crystallized intelligence. Think of the age-old idiom “You can’t teach a old dog new tricks”. As you point it out, he’s implied that he’s played a ton IRL mafia, which means it’s still probably all he knows. It’s essentially still a part of him and thus makes it harder to change. One has to learn that though and I think that takes another level of self-awareness.
I can’t speak on the first part of the latter. Never played IRL mafia and don’t think I’d have any intentions to. I’ve seen town do the categorizing all the time though. I honestly think he’s just town who didn’t realize just how big the major leagues are. The other queues are vastly different from the Newbie queue. They don’t treat you with kids gloves and they don’t cut your PB&J sandwiches in quarters either. I think it’s very easy for newer players to behave the way Cinn has at times when they first get a taste of real mafia.
