Undertale Semi-Open Dead PT

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This is the dead PT, but I'm also using it for peanut gallery comments.

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Alphys was kind of meh for several reasons, complexity isn't exactly the only reason I wanted to exclude her.

I'm not following the math on the thesis that outing the PR and sparing it is a breaking strategy since the scum get to shoot in pacifist but maybe I'm dense. We'll see what happens.

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I understand the break now
I think this is mega townsided

I kept trying to push to scumside the setup more but I didn't whine hard enough mayhaps

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Wow post 174 is such level 1 mafia. The wine right in front.

But really I'm not sure I pay attention to that enough. That might be a level beyond me in its way.

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After rethinking about it better the balance on claiming the PR and sparing it isn't terrible. The LyLo on sparing 1 scum in the other 3 spares is a 3 man LyLo with an IC, not a 1v1, I miscounted. The mafia shoots the PR, the freshly spared player is an IC and participates in the MyLo discussion but there are 3 unconfirmed players.

It's seems kind of like silly design for the PR to get used that way though. As said during design for this setup, I think it would be sweet if it was redesigned as a smalltown (not a rolemadness smalltown though, gate the powers by route and additional conditions so only about 2 actually end up working)

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Using this thread to draft a death scene

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"Are you a wizard, like me? Or are you one of the more troublesome monsters that are the reason why things have been more tense lately?"

"Come now, don't come striking at me like that. I can show you I'm one of the good monsters. I'll show you maaaaaaaaaaagic"

"Well, this isn't going well at all, but I don't think you'll get past these orbs. Never understimate the power of magic!"

Gamma Emerald

who was a

Town Madjick, Vanilla Townie

, was murdered Night 1.


Who would do this? Who would bring evil into our peaceful city of monsters? There's no magic left to tell us.

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Deadline:[countdown]0.00[/countdown]

[Gamma Emerald]

Why isn't Oversoul on the fuvking hot seat rn

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Post 326: I can post, just not about your alignment S_S :p

I agree Gamma I feel like Oversoul should be more of a focus and they should be digging even more into the gambit to determine whether it's a town gambit or scum Gambit.

No one noticed that he claimed the role that chemist kinda crumbed day1.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think S_S is town

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Happy cakeday

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I thought about the setup a bunch today and I think the thing that is the most problematic is how the EV on spare spare spare kill is identical whether or not the spares are town, in cases where the kill was an obvscum. I spent a lot of time brainstorming solutions but I don't have anything I like figured out yet.

[Gamma Emerald]

Doesn't that auto win for all town and create a 3 person poe for one scum slared

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The mafia gets an extra kill if one scum is spared. So it comes out that there is an unconfirmed pool of 3 players and 2 ICs, so the mafia has to mislynch an unconfirmed, shoot a confirmed, and mislynch the unconfirmed.

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Oversoul kind of accidentally pointed out a breaking strategy for the setup.

1.Lynch until you hit scum, ideally day 1.
2.Begin sparing scummy players (and tell undyne not to even use her power really)
3.If you spare a scum, the next nightkill comes up missing. You immediately win. But this is unfair, you are checking a player without killing it. If you don't confirm that player to be mafia, instead they are an additional confirmed innocent when the core is reached. This is pretty broken.

All the EV calcs we did for the setup didn't consider this I think so I gave him this weird ruling that being spared protects you from night actions but doesn't keep you from using them. The setup technically doesn't say exactly what removed from game means. Since I fought so hard against having PRs that aren't neutered in this setup the unintended consequences of letting PRs keep shooting isn't too nasty but I'm still worried people will be pissed at me for being dogmatic

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Chennisden's solitary confinement is hilarious

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mod can a spared PR still use their power from the spared room to affect non-spared players?

Yes

Oh this was not my intention lol, but I guess it's my fault for not making it clear

It's very irritating I can't respond to this post, for impartiality's sake.
My reading of the rules always unconsciously had "spared mafia players continue to access the mafia PT" to mean "spared mafia players keep submitting nightkills" EVs and situation-specific EVs were based on this assumption. It was easy not to think about -who- would be carrying out that kill because none of the roles interacted with whom was designated to perform the nightkill, even in S_S's broader setup.

D1 lynch scum, D2 spare(sane cop + double protect actually) scummy player, D3 spare(sane cop plus protect actually) scummy player, D4 spare(sane cop actually) is a disgustingly powerful line of play for town in the subset of games where the town finds a D1 obvscum if the rules are interpreted to roleblock players while they're in spared PT. Scum loses immediately if any of those were a mafia. Unlike a lynch, even if town screws up all those times, they get all of those players back, scum are being forced to win 9-2 mountainous with 2 auto-docs. All the townies come back into the game and one is shot, leaving it a 5 man game with 2 confirmed and 3 unconfirmed. But keep in mind these 2 confirmed innocent players are SCUMMY, the town was trying to cause a nightkill to go missing earlier, so there's huge value here. With the feedback and input of 2 players that would normally be out of the game in vanilla mountainous, the scummiest of the 3 unconfirmeds is lynched. Another confirmed townie is shot. Then the mafia has to win the 1v1, as it is 2 unconfirmeds against 1 confirmed.
It should be uphill for a mafia who lost his buddy n1. But this is just far too brutal. Not only is the solo scum player being forced to get a very, very high ranking in apparent towniness due to becoming -responsible- for shooting the town's -scumreads-, but input from players who would have been removed from a game of mountainous is available for the solve.
Assistance from the PR hurls this over the edge. Optimal play from Toriel and Undyne is to only claim at Spare-1, it'd be a waste for them to be spared, this allows more accuracy sparing the solo scum and deprives the scum of one of very few strategic nightkills they're getting access to. If Toriel and Undyne can dodge the nightkills, they claim when the core is reached and immediately get a mechanical win.
Optimal play from Asgore is to never claim, he should even silently allow himself to get spared if that's what happens. He's not allowed to interact with the Night 4 kill, but if he survives that kill, he can win the game by roleblocking one of the unconfirmeds. If someone dies his target is confirmed innocent and it's a -win by confirmed innocent- parity. If there's no deaths that night he's found scum. No killing does nothing because he's informed when he changes.

It's very unlikely this run of the setup follows any of this pattern at all, but I have to mod objectively, ignoring what has been done in the game and who is doing well or poorly in the game. If there is an ambiguous rule that would break facets of the setup (and I think no kills from Spare PT virtually makes this a D1 Flag setup) interpreted one way and create an acceptable but imperfect game interpreted the other way, I have to take that interpretation. Read on its face, I don't have a basis for preventing PRs to shoot from the spare PT if I let mafia shoot from the Spare PT, and I need to be able to do so for the neutral route to stay reasonable (the neutral route thing works just fine if the Kill is D2, btw).
The question raised is does allowing Toriel to shoot from the spared PT -also- break the setup. It doesn't. Toriel can save one player. She can't clear the player, the mafia just shoot the same target again and that's it. She can clear the player if it's the very last night, sure, but that's a d8, we were rolling like d3s to see if the town could force a mechanical win as a reward for finding 1 scum earlier. The double spared mafia win is totally unchanged. The 1 mafia spared win on a N1-2 Toriel protect just slightly increases the options the players have for sparing the fifth townie and keeping that spare clean, because one player is left alive from the mafia having to "finish off" up Toriel's clear. The solo scum has to win a 5 man mafia game with no confirmeds and getting 1 mafia player spared is pretty comparable performance to the solo mafia in neutral who lost his partner early- but that guy was forced to win 5 man mafia with 2 confirmeds, which was unreasonably brutal.

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Oh, the effect of a Toriel hit from the spare PT is a slightly stronger if the game goes neutral.

But it's just a 6p game that goes to 4 man mylo instead of a 5p game that goes to 3 man lylo.
Still fine but that's definitely the more impactful case since you get solve power from the rescued player.

If no mafia is spared there will be a conftown in the 6p day if Toriel saved on the last night, but the conftown can be removed before LyLo.

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"Let me share my lava with you! It has healing powers! I will heal us through all this stress."

"No, don't hurt me! Some of my lava will spill out. You want it. It will feel good."

"Please, spare me, I can heal the other monsters when they get hurt... do you even understand the words I'm saying?"

DrDolittle

, who was

Vulcan, Vanilla Townie

, has been vaporized Night 2.

It is now Day 3. With seven unspared players alive, it takes four votes to make a decision.

The deadline is in eleven days.

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I think people are gonna find post 521 scummy

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The postcounts in the game thread are pretty wild:

Dr Easy Bake 20
Emperor flippyNips 24
Something_Smart 79
Elements 66
Adorable 11
volxen 15
Oversoul 134
popsofctown 24
Chemist1422 50
DrDolittle 29
Gamma Emerald 15
chennisden 63


I think chennisden might would be leaving if his spared PT posts were added.
it seems the more townread players seem to have fewer posts.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm listening to Undertale music rn

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This is a good post