Mini 2096: I Don't Remember the Name of This Game

[Karnage]

@mastina, serious question: how has working with 3p player's worked out in general for you? does this generally lead to a town win or does it backfire on town? I don't have a lot of experience with 3p in games

[mastina]

"Ah iz" town amnesiac, bitches!

Now the question is: who da hell are y'all?

Ah also have some questions 'bout the game, like who da hell is this president that "can't be killed at night"? Is that just flavor or is it a player here? Cuz I don't see no Walter Sinclair on the players list, so it should have gone without saying that they could not be killed anyway!

Hi Almost. The good news is, you don't have to sort my alignment or Gamma's, and as a result only need to sort nine players.

The bad news is the reason why.

[GreyICE]

Gamma is confirmed town, Mastina is confirmed vig bait. Wow, done.

[mastina]

Considering that I am literally the strongest proponent of being pro third party? Of not fucking them over? Of working with them? To the point where, twice, scum have claimed 3p to take advantage of me when they knew this fact about me, yet in spite of this experience my stance remains unshaken?

Oh goodie, self-meta from a claimed third party.

You are aware that if you really are third party who doesn't know their win condition there is a good chance you are a serial killer, survivor, lyncher, jester, or other anti-town annoyance that helps out the scumteam. And of course there is a wonderful case where the third party is just scum looking for a cheap claim. Third parties exist to test for vigilantes, and to otherwise lynch.

I am quite aware of the number of third parties I could be. With the exception of serial killer, none of them have a wincon mutually exclusive with the town.

Given that there's only one third party which can't win with the town and half a dozen which can, I am quite willing to take the risk of not being the one. And given that statistical odd of being able to win with the town, I will try my damnedest to do exactly that.

Plus. If I catch scum who wouldn't have been caught without my help. I figure that increases the odds that the town will let me win. Like, if I can spearhead a D1 scum lynch, assuming that there's only one scum left in the game, the town could afford to let virtually any 3p wincon be fulfilled.

So I actually have a shitload of incentive to scumhunt and scumhunt well. It's the best chance I have of the town working with me.

[mastina]

I mean. I am convinced that between Ksrnage/Drew/Menalque, there's at least one scum and probably is two.

If Menalque is scum, then either scum bussed or more likely there's scum elsewhere.
If Menalque is town, game's solved; scumteam is Drew+Karnage.

It's for that reason that I think that the lynch is the best: NOT ONLY is it incredibly likely a scum lynch, BUT ALSO, REGARDLESS of the flip, we get a shitload of valuable information.

"then either scum bussed or more likely there's scum elsewhere." way to go out on a limb lol

Do you KNOW there are only 2 scum or are you making an assumption based on the number of players in the game?

When I originally thought that this game started as a 12 player game, I thought that it was possible that there were three scum.

But then it was pointed out that the death of Elements wasn't just a flavor kill: Elements, flipped scum, signed up for this game as a player. Given that, there won't be three scum alive, since that'd have made the game be 4:1:8. 3:1:8, I can see as a setup; 4:1:8 I cannot.

So, technically speaking, no, I don't KNOW that there's only two groupscum, but it seems like the stupidly obvious conclusion to reach given what we know.

[Karnage]

When I originally thought that this game started as a 12 player game, I thought that it was possible that there were three scum.

But then it was pointed out that the death of Elements wasn't just a flavor kill: Elements, flipped scum, signed up for this game as a player. Given that, there won't be three scum alive, since that'd have made the game be 4:1:8. 3:1:8, I can see as a setup; 4:1:8 I cannot.

So, technically speaking, no, I don't KNOW that there's only two groupscum, but it seems like the stupidly obvious conclusion to reach given what we know.

That makes sense, thanks

[GreyICE]

Given that there's only one third party which can't win with the town and half a dozen which can, I am quite willing to take the risk of not being the one. And given that statistical odd of being able to win with the town, I will try my damnedest to do exactly that.

I mean you play how you want to, I can't do anything about it today. If you want to try to help the town, far be it from me to talk you out of it.

[cyrus62]

Spoiler:

I mean. I am convinced that between Ksrnage/Drew/Menalque, there's at least one scum and probably is two.

If Menalque is scum, then either scum bussed or more likely there's scum elsewhere.
If Menalque is town, game's solved; scumteam is Drew+Karnage.

It's for that reason that I think that the lynch is the best: NOT ONLY is it incredibly likely a scum lynch, BUT ALSO, REGARDLESS of the flip, we get a shitload of valuable information.

"then either scum bussed or more likely there's scum elsewhere." way to go out on a limb lol

Do you KNOW there are only 2 scum or are you making an assumption based on the number of players in the game?

When I originally thought that this game started as a 12 player game, I thought that it was possible that there were three scum.

But then it was pointed out that the death of Elements wasn't just a flavor kill: Elements, flipped scum, signed up for this game as a player. Given that, there won't be three scum alive, since that'd have made the game be 4:1:8. 3:1:8, I can see as a setup; 4:1:8 I cannot.

So, technically speaking, no, I don't KNOW that there's only two groupscum, but it seems like the stupidly obvious conclusion to reach given what we know.

wouldn't that mean theirs a vig?

[Doctor Drew]

I just had a thought, and may be way off with this, what if we all got the same role PM?

Seems a bit bastardy, but would fit in with the theme

[GreyICE]

I don't think so. I specifically asked the mod if my win condition could change, and he confirmed it couldn't (although other details could).

That would mean that we're literally playing an all-town game, at which point, well, whatever.

[Karnage]

I just had a thought, and may be way off with this, what if we all got the same role PM?

Seems a bit bastardy, but would fit in with the theme

pretty sure all townies got the same one

[Doctor Drew]

I also just realized that Mastina knew she was 3p.

Nvm, I iz dummy.

[cyrus62]

I just had a thought, and may be way off with this, what if we all got the same role PM?

Seems a bit bastardy, but would fit in with the theme

what a scummy thing to say lol just kidding

[mastina]

@mastina, serious question: how has working with 3p player's worked out in general for you? does this generally lead to a town win or does it backfire on town? I don't have a lot of experience with 3p in games

Difficult question to answer, given that it requires:
1: the game must possess third parties; most games (like, probably 80-90%) do not have them.
2: the third parties must claim; most third parties do not. The REASON why most third parties don't claim is because…
3: site meta (which I strongly disagree with) is to o n policy lynch third party claims; for me to have an answer, this needs to have not happened.

So my sample size is very small, like 1-3 games where the town worked with the third party that claimed.

That said? Each of those times? It worked INCREDIBLY well. I won't lie; it wasn't perfect. For instance, one example had the hiccup of a third party scumreading town and town reading scum--but that wasn't the fault of them being third party; that was the fault of them being an incompetent scumhunter, something which would've happened to them if they were town. (And to put that in the context of this game? I'd expect to lose if, say, the scumteam was TheFonz+Baezu.)

[mastina]

I also just realized that Mastina knew she was 3p.

Nvm, I iz dummy.

Knows that I am third party, yep, but has no fucking clue what said 3p wincon s. To be honest if it IS a wincon mutually exclusive with the town's, then I'll just write the game off as utter bullshit (how the fuck is an antitown 3p meant to win when they start the game not knowing that they are an antitown 3p? It's literally impossible to set up a winning gameplan without knowing what you need to do to win) and call the game a win if the town wins.
But, odds are statistically in my favor for me being able to win with the town anyway.

[GreyICE]

At least I hope you agree that if someone ever claims 3P as the result of a wagon, the only possibility is a justice hammer of death.

God whatever, I so don't care about you and your unlynchability. There could not be anything less relevant. I wish to hear from our replacement, a little more from Uzi and Baezu, and hopefully some more guidance from Pope Gamma.

[The Fonz]

LUV, he makes a good point. Why do that and just leave when eventually someone would point it out. Either he is terrible at being scum, or he is a convenient wagon. Though I would appreciate him actually answering my question is asked in rvs haha.

Eh, I don't buy that it would definitely get pointed out. After all, I was the only one to do so. This defense: "Why would I/he do it as scum, it's gonna get called out" is WIFOM and basically saying Too Scummy to be Scum.

In terms of the stated town motivation for the vote, let's look at it. The idea that saying you can't explain your vote is scummy. It's ludicrous. Saying you can't explain generally means one of the following:

1) Ongoing game meta. Literally against the rules to explain.
2) Secret scumtell. I think secret scumtulls are kinda bull, but not scummy. Players who have them generally don't divulge them under mild pressure.
3) Role information. Actively bad to try to force these players to elaborate.

So how the effing eff is it protown to place a vote on a player well on his way to flaking out of the game to draw reactions, when those reactions if they even occur are likely to be null at best? Don't even get me started on the scumderp OMGUS of "Trying to infer the reasoning behind my unexplained vote is scummy."

(I'm catching up the last few pages, this may or may not turn into a post blizzard).

The fact is, on some level, every single judgment on every facet of a player's behavior, meta, and past, present, and future actions can be construed as wine in one way or another. Just because it's wine doesn't mean that the poison doesn't end up being in one of the glasses, and just because it's wine doesn't invalidate the argument.

I think you’re giving too much credit to an unexplained vote at that juncture. Votes of that matter, at that stage, boil down to gut as far as I know. So I’m not sure what you mean by ongoing meta as meta is an agreed upon consensus on how a player plays and I highly doubt that Jackal had a super secret scum tell on Cyrus either due to a clear lack of familiarly.

At the time of my vote, there was no way to know Jackal was on his way to flaking out. I’m having serious trouble seeing how you think these reactions are null. People now have a better read on me because of it and now I can read those currently voting me better.

You did not infer. You assumed. It’s not like Jackal vote was naked. He gave a reasoning for his vote which I later explain was the reason I decided to vote for him. For you to have inferred, you would have considered that. You also would have done some homework on me and realize that I don’t vote chronic lurkers as scum.

Eh, this is terrible.

1) I didn't ASSUME your motive. That would be assuming you're scum. I pointed out that starting a vanity wagon on a one post lurker is an action that has more utility to scum than town, and a possible mitigating factor (looking like you were genuinely trying to get him lynched) is absent.

2) Your stated motive is pretty shitty, I don't have time to rebut the whole of your response to why, but a one post lurker is about the last person you'd get useful reactions out of, and people are less likely to react to unexplained lone votes.

3) You expect me to do enough meta to conclusively prove a negative about a veteran player's scumgame, but can't do enough to see that Jackal has chronically limited access?

4) Fine. If it's so obvious what you would or wouldn't do as scum, tell me what exactly differentiates your scum and town games?

5) Who is your strongest town read atm?

[Gamma Emerald]

"Ah iz" town amnesiac, bitches!

Now the question is: who da hell are y'all?

Ah also have some questions 'bout the game, like who da hell is this president that "can't be killed at night"? Is that just flavor or is it a player here? Cuz I don't see no Walter Sinclair on the players list, so it should have gone without saying that they could not be killed anyway!

I'm the VICE President

[The Fonz]

Gamma I'm short of time atm can you take a look at Baezu's play since the wagon on her crumbled and tell me what you think?

[Gamma Emerald]

Baezu has been meh, not a fan of the seeming lack of activity. But this post interests me.

Ya I guess she prob is third party but she’s been playing very Townie...

Also I think when Menalque is scum he writes up long posts analyzing everything so this is probably Town him

What games give you this impression? I'm honestly inclined to say your meta on Mena is accurate fyi.

[GreyICE]

Oh god fuck meta bs.

[Gamma Emerald]

Meta isn't perfect but it

can

work

[cyrus62]

or bezu and him can be scum with each other and could be defending them

[Gamma Emerald]

:no_chin:

[GreyICE]

Meta isn't perfect but it

can

work

On MORONS. If anyone has more self-awareness than an avacado, they will adjust their scum meta to fit their town meta. That is, after all, the point of the game. Most "meta" tells are either lazy scum excuses, or town finding exactly what they thought they were going to find, a Rorschach test where a failure of result is blamed on the player using meta, and not the entire process being little better than a Tarot card reading. "Looks like death inverted, the 7 of cups, and the 3 of wands, Menalque is either scum, or he's contracted a nasty fungus in his crotch".

Look, I'm not fond of Menalque's play, but I'm not going to dismiss him as an empty-headed buffoon with the IQ of lukewarm water.

I think Cyrus' take might be the more accurate one sadly.