Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

[Farkran]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" (

still scumreads me; rest of para snipped

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely. (

by eliminating these three, and his expressed townreads of skitt and NMSA**, Fark is saying the only slots pairable w Menalque are emps (see below) selynee ON WAGON and Creeper. Why would someone with an associative bent join the largest wagon w TWO OF HIS scumreads on it other than to survive?

....snip......

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate (

this is the evolution issue in a nutshell. Fark has a clear town read on NMSA, and a clear scumread on me, until now. Why does he deny the townread here. And he does so in order to go from scum to TL to at least midlining — all the while getting on a wagon w me targeting an earlier town PR read??

Sorry to do online comments but easier than multi quote in mobile. As it shows the issue isn’t just the evolution on Menalque, but also on emps and NMSA are failing the coherent band of your try. I get they approach the game differently and have different views on protown play. But my fundamental issue is not seeing the consistency in application of that approach.

Misrep.

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate

This is from Menalque, not me. You are also very wrong about the PR rep. I said he was attempting to play like one, not that he is. This also comes from my previous mafia games' meta, which is very different than this though. Back in the days, town had a lot more PRs since it was facing more enemies - who ofc used it at their advantage by trying to fake town PR in games. I guess it makes less sense here, and i no longer believe Menalque is playing a PR now.

@ skit 633
Farks 600 is exactly my issue. It gives a reason to TL emps, whereas 540 at least says that’s his - charitably reading- third bigger scumlean after me and Menalque. Like I’m seeing what your saying on different standards and D1 goals but the step I’m missing is I’m not seeing logical application of those standards.

You have definitely mistaken Menalque's quote from 540 as if they were my words, but they are actually his.

[Farkran]

Don't exactly expect a readlist.

Emps- pretty locked up on you. Not something I think most scum would be doing for so long D1. Also, his reads on EC and sushimartyr (partially till now) seem genuine. Townlead-townread.

NMSA- Already said plus I feel like him giving town reads wouldn't be so great for mafia later in game.



Sushi Martyr- 182 and 216 fair questions, 498 seems an in-depth read on Menalque, 220 was actually ehmm....not sure how they'd read me based on this, "I'd like a chance to do that before you condemn me though" (450) seems to me way too polite more like fear of being scumread, reads are....plausible, but tbh, not a huge fan of announcing you are basing your read on someone else's meta. Scumlean

Menalque- 181 has a good point, not a fan of scum reading NMSA there (or in 606, not sure how EC is comparable to Fark even if you consider both scummy plus NMSA gave a townread on Fark), not going to read much into changing reads because in general people who give reads very early in the game tend to change them almost entirely somewhere along the line but not much interest in Farkran after giving intent (whatever it was for creating discussions or not).

EpicCreeper- I mean the reads on Farkran and emps were based on "talk and asking question is good" which is pretty generic stuff, I agree the reaction test could have been just them deciding to back out of a scumread on Emps. No clue what his partner would be doing.

Farkran- First reads seem forced to me. Not in the way that you've changed them, but mostly that I couldn't understand them. My fakehammer- guess I'll have to believe it is game play difference...Some of the reasons for your early reads as I said, I either don't understand or don't agree with: being careful with votes, intend and so on. Your reaction being to L-1 and so has been pretty...unafraid to be lynched though and you scum read the person defending you- makes me think it was a genuine read. Menalque, as I said, you do have a point there that he gave intent and then sort of ignored it, but I find the trajectory 50 to 0 strange. Gun to my head, I'd say town for lynched-related behaviour (mostly)

Skitter- Interesting thoughts on town!Farkran- the progression of the read seems real (though I'd say the vote itself wasn't half-bad in this situation). Most questions were on point and advanced the discussion.

So, calculating the score:

VOTE: EpicCreeper

I agree with most of your points. Bolded part is exactly where my read on Menalque fell - why in the world did he gave intent on me? At first i believed it was because the game was kinda starting to stall, which would be consistent in some contexts, but you don't simply forget my existence when defending yourself from your train AFTER you started a train on me, then unvoted, then gave hammer intent.

Also interesting that you left out teacher.

pedit: even if he himself brought it up minutes later. Sely, please give an insightful read on teacher as well.

@creeper @sushi: still waiting.

[Farkran]

and i no longer believe Menalque is

playing

a PR now.

Edit/clarification: "playing" as in "faking it", i never believed Menalque was a PR.

[Selynee]

Basically 519, a bit more in-death. No promise will be understandable.

As I said, I found their read on sushi plausible coming from town. Not that I agree with it. First, the greeting point- seems at least some people believe it and he thinks sushi might have deliberately used it to "evaluate the board".Possible this is genuine. Did agree with Sushi early in the game about you, so, that would be accurate. Same for thinking those questions are game-solving (though I gave my opinion on 220.

Trajectory on Menaloque also made sense (I mean, 223, 358, 417).

Later read: possibly genuine he'd consider Farkan's vote on Menaloque as coming from scum given the PR speculation (even though he said he doesn't actually think Menaloque is PR there).

[Farkran]

So who do you think could be scum, selynee? Could you list your potential scum teams for me?

[teacher]

Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

Nope. I just reject the idea that you shouldnt push your hardest scumread because of difficulty pairing them. Bussing and pocketing are both things. On D1 in particular, I dont care as much about associatives (as Ive said multiple times). For someone who has adopted Skitter's "understand different approaches" as his banner, you should try practicing it.

Town!emps now makes a lot of sense, but no way i am following his logic aka "mind meld" with him on my votes.

So if I understand your posts correctly, at the time of 540, you also thought Emps was town. (I mean thats what I get from 475, but I did confuse Menalque's words with yours due to the quoting issue). That means the ONLY player you could pair Men with was Selynee, yet you joined a wagon with both me and them on it?

You are also very wrong about the PR rep. I said he was attempting to play like one, not that he is.

No. What you actually said was "looks strongly like town PR to me." 381. Attempting to play /= looks strongly like.

Also by this site standards Menalque should have claimed already, am i correct?

No, claims only come after intent. HE is not on L-1 (I dont think?)

[teacher]

possibly genuine he'd consider Farkan's vote on Menaloque as coming from scum given the PR speculation (even though he said he doesn't actually think Menaloque is PR there).

It's not the PR Spec; that's icing on the cake.

It is the pure survivalism joining the biggest wagon (bandwaggoning to use his term) with his biggest scumread (me) and the only slot he can pair w/ menalque (Selynee) on a slot he had previously townread. IF the reasons were strong, maybe. But his werent -- all the good reasons to SR Menalque happened while Fark was TRing. Fark's reason to SR Menalque -- evolving reads -- would make sense as a wagon reaction if Fark was genuinely trying to sort.

In short, I see 540 and Fark's 180 on Menalque as a scumclaim, regardless of other play. That's why I have an itch I just cant stop scratching. That's also why I immediately got off and called it out -- again, another point that should be PAINFULLY obvious considering how explicit I made it, yet Fark pretends to have no idea why I did it (and uses it to cast shade):

i wonder why he jumped off Menalque's in this context

I dont think Fark is genuinely trying to sort/understand me. I dont think they genuinely tried to sort/understand Menalque. In both cases, the simple explanation was pretty obvious for a player as experienced as they are: I wont vote w/ my biggest scumread; Menalque doesnt think his wagon can be all town (a point Fark agrees with when it comes to Fark's wagon). But they ignore that logic to push.

[Farkran]

Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

Nope. I just reject the idea that you shouldnt push your hardest scumread because of difficulty pairing them. Bussing and pocketing are both things. On D1 in particular, I dont care as much about associatives (as Ive said multiple times). For someone who has adopted Skitter's "understand different approaches" as his banner, you should try practicing it.

I tried reviewing with town!teacher in mind, couldn't make any sense out of it so far. I was looking for more info, which you actively stalled by unvoting menalque when he was at L-1. Scum move again, didn't make any sense, made me re-evaluate the teacher/mena team since you joined as 2nd and quit at L-1. Would be typical from SE-scum, faking to throw their partner and then panic-leaving on the hammer threat INSTANTLY.

So if I understand your posts correctly, at the time of 540, you also thought Emps was town. (I mean thats what I get from 475, but I did confuse Menalque's words with yours due to the quoting issue). That means the ONLY player you could pair Men with was Selynee, yet you joined a wagon with both me and them on it?

Teacher/mena can be a thing as of now. Selynee never joined the mena train, another casual misrep that is hardly coming from town!teacher. I also never cleared sushi. All in all you seem to be really panicking now, which makes me even more confident that mena is a good info lynch at the very least - chance of scum flipping are quite high tough.

No. What you actually said was "looks strongly like town PR to me." 381. Attempting to play /= looks strongly like.

Looks strongly town PR to me,

although i find it hard to believe at this point

Misrep again

Also by this site standards Menalque should have claimed already, am i correct?

No, claims only come after intent. HE is not on L-1 (I dont think?)

He was, just before you panic-unvoted him.

[teacher]

So if I understand your posts correctly, at the time of 540, you also thought Emps was town. (I mean thats what I get from 475, but I did confuse Menalque's words with yours due to the quoting issue). That means the ONLY player you could pair Men with was Selynee, yet you joined a wagon with both me and them on it?

Teacher/mena can be a thing as of now. Selynee never joined the mena train, another casual misrep that is hardly coming from town!teacher. I also never cleared sushi. All in all you seem to be really panicking now, which makes me even more confident that mena is a good info lynch at the very least - chance of scum flipping are quite high tough.

1. You're right on Selynee. My bad.
2. Youre wrong on Sushi. The VERY same post says "Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1." 540. No, it doesnt use the word clear, but thats certainly the implication.

No. What you actually said was "

looks strongly like town PR to me

." 381. Attempting to play /= looks strongly like.

Looks strongly town PR to me

,

although i find it hard to believe at this point

Misrep again.

Nope, quoted you verbatim and linked it.

[Farkran]

Menalque was 2nd on my train and gave intent to hammer. At first i thought he was attempting to unstall the game, but reviewing from scum!mena pov it's very possible that he is actual scum.

Also read my 381 again. You are are wrong. Hardly believing something = i don't think it's true = i think he is NOT a town PR.

[teacher]

Menalque was 2nd on my train and gave intent to hammer. At first i thought he was attempting to unstall the game, but reviewing from scum!mena pov it's very possible that he is actual scum.

Also read my 381 again. You are are wrong. Hardly believing something = i don't think it's true = i think he is NOT a town PR.

Right, but you were quite clear he was town (sealso 404. So it was a slot you had seen at town and recognized a possibility it was PR, but still joined your biggest SR to try to get a claim?

*****

As an aside, despite my belief you are scum, I want to give you credit for the Townie things I’m seeing. Another one is that I have made mistakes and you aren’t jumping up and down on them despite your scumread. That’s not only pleasant personally, but also is a towny action imo (even if it doesn’t outweigh my other thoughts).

[Selynee]

Sorry, not so sure in my abilities to start analysing pairs so early. I'll say I don't think Menalque is scum with EC based on the fact he was the first to start scumreading his first post- don't really think this would happen if you see your mafia team is so new.

Not seeing a teacher/Menalque team here. Teacher scumread and voted Menalque for a long time, and while I have no idea how good of a player is Menalque he wasn't that engaged in this game for most of it. Would be a way too high risk to get his partner killed day 1.

[Farkran]

Right, but you were quite clear he was town (sealso 404. So it was a slot you had seen at town and recognized a possibility it was PR, but still joined your biggest SR to try to get a claim?

Wasn't strong on menalque being town, faking PR is not a plus. My initial 60% read is what i believe you would call townlean (null being 50%). And guess what, my biggest SR immediately jumped off the train BEFORE the accused had a chance to clarify his crappy defense post. I could have reconsidered my read on you slightly, had you waited, but you didn't. Town!teacher would most likely deviate from his biggest SR (me) train target, but no way he would have done it that soon and for that reason alone. What were you afraid of, if you believe i'm scum? That my partner would quickhammer him? Then you would have won d2 by lynching me and then mena's hammer, gg for town, am i wrong?

*****

As an aside, despite my belief you are scum, I want to give you credit for the Townie things I’m seeing. Another one is that I have made mistakes and you aren’t jumping up and down on them despite your scumread. That’s not only pleasant personally, but also is a towny action imo (even if it doesn’t outweigh my other thoughts).

We shall speak again outside of a game context, i believe you will find myself not so much of a "bad guy" as i am playing in this game. Getting on people's nerves is one of my special perks. I never cross the line though, personal offenses and ragequit/throwing the game are way out of my league. I don't find politeness towny though, quite the opposite. Especially in newbie games, usually only mafia is able to keep its composure, because they aren't genuinely angered by townies playing bad or frustrated because they don't understand what's going on. Mafia start losing their temper only when they get discovered.

[NotMySpamAccount]

Why are we teaching the newbies to use associatives without flips?

[teacher]

Why are we teaching the newbies to use associatives without flips?

Who is this to?

[NotMySpamAccount]

Why are we teaching the newbies to use associatives without flips?

Who is this to?

Everyone's talking about "That team doesn't work because X probably isn't scum with Y" but we don't have any flips yet.

[Sushi Martyr]

Why are we teaching the newbies to use associatives without flips?

Who is this to?

Everyone's talking about "That team doesn't work because X probably isn't scum with Y" but we don't have any flips yet.

Don't worry, I don't do that.

[Sushi Martyr]

In before someone, most likely Fark, calls that a "wolfy pop-in".

[Menalque]

Hmm, bit of a wolfy pop-in from sushi there

[Menalque]

Fark is annoying but idk if that makes him scum

I feel less town on town vibes than I would expect from teacher/fark, but that might also be from not being caught up

[Menalque]

Don’t think I’ve seen all the questions for me yet but: my intent wasn’t serious, and that’s part of why I didn’t ask for a claim

How high do you go on your town/scum percentages D1 fark?

[Menalque]

I also think I was caught up at the time ft he intent, it’s since then that I’ve fallen behind

[Sushi Martyr]

I have no idea what to make of Fark anymore.

Parts of his posts feel genuine, but he keeps either misunderstanding or misrepresenting teacher's questions, and it feels a little like he's using the fact that he comes from another site with a different environment as a fallback excuse for not giving direct responses. Like the whole "cat and dog" metaphor he used a couple pages back.

And I still don't think he explained

why

he had such a strong TR on NMSA from the beginning, although admittedly I need to double-check whether he answered it at all. I know he definitely didn't explain it when it was first brought up.

But I have absolutely no idea whether his obstinacy here reflects his genuine play style as town or is an act he's putting on as scum.

[Menalque]

oh, just looking at my ISO to find where I declared intent: I'd forgotten that I was calling fark/emps as a possible pairing. So that means I've got to Farkran as possible scum in two pairings, through two more-or-less separate reads

[Menalque]

skitt said something that bothered me but can't remember exactly what now: I think about scum!her just pocketing me?

but I don't think scum!her would try and pocket me through buddying me, bc she knows that I know that pocketing is something she chooses to do as scum

I'm also not sure she'd do that to me vs NMSA or teacher bc I don't think scum!skitt would view me as a threat that much

but if she was to not try to pocket me (i.e. what she's done) she might actually be trying to pocket me by not doing what she thinks I would have expected scum!skitt to do