Mini Normal 2095 - Game Over!

[Iconeum]

How does everyone feel about Nippleflips?

I didn't scumread him previously, but the longer this day goes on the more obvious his sidelining becomes.

From my experience in mislynches (and being mislynched), scum often tends to be exactly where this dude is: participating without actually discussing

[Iconeum]

I don't share Ali's scumread on Luca

[Luca Blight]

How does everyone feel about Nippleflips?

I didn't scumread him previously, but the longer this day goes on the more obvious his sidelining becomes.

From my experience in mislynches (and being mislynched), scum often tends to be exactly where this dude is: participating without actually discussing

He's pretty much my

'compromise lynch'

option for today if we're not lynching Datisi, POE being the reason. I'm feeling inclined to take Almost50's view on Ali on-board for now.

[Iconeum]

Right now i've got an 'all or nothing' read on Ali. It's either Ali/Datisi or town!Ali.
I'm completely biased because of the way Ali handled the Datisi affair.

But there are a lot of worlds where this comes from town!Ali so i'm not touching that today.

I still think Datisi is the correct lynch however. Don't think I want to lynch outside of (Datisi/Nippleflips) today because I share the sentiment by Luca.

[Klick]

Not gonna happen. Trust me. Ali is not available to lynch here. Not without an explicit guilty on him.

Is there a reason for this outside of a townread? Because this sounds an awful lot like 'because she's Alisae' which isn't good enough to give someone immunity D1.

[Klick]

Never mind, hadn't read further yet.

[Klick]

Luca, a lot of your townread on me seems to stem from the fact that you didn't think I'd bring as much attention to myself as I did early on. How does that contrast with your view of Alisae's play?

[Luca Blight]

Luca, a lot of your townread on me seems to stem from the fact that you didn't think I'd bring as much attention to myself as I did early on. How does that contrast with your view of Alisae's play?

That was that starting point for my read, but the main reason was that your progression on your Pilgrim read felt genuine.

Ali is a different kettle of fish; I always feel replacing into a game is quite different from starting it. I've seen it on a few occasions where a player (who turns out to be scum) replaces in and goes completely wild. There could be a few possible motivations for this, but as I said I'm not going to dwell on Ali too much for the time being.

[Alisae]

Spoiler:

========
Scum
========

Luca - His whole ISO sucks. Nothing in there is actually substanial at all. All of his reads come across as making stuff up on the fly (a lot of times when he is talking about a read, he gives himself room for said read to go either way). He's not really taking any risks and is in general playing really safe. I really want to see Luca go after something instead of just do nothing. Because a lot of what his ISO is nothing. And anything that like, remotely looks like analysis is really surface level stuff.
54 is just a gut scummy start mostly because I don't like the fact he has to feel like he has to have a stance first thing.
His shade in 85 is bad and comes across as scummy.
The Klick stance in 214 just sucks because the way he presents it, it really seems like it could go either way depending on what happens.
224 kind of just sucks. I'm not buying the "scum who is at a loss of what to do" narative at all because when I was reading that, I was generally liking that interaction with Billy.
318 is bad because its him just saying that Klick is town over and over again. The individual points aren't anything thats new. Also in the way its presented itself, I dislike this because he's just saying the samething over and over again. Like, he's trying to look like he's solving, but nothing in that post is actually adding anything new to the game. Its just non-stop praise and I don't like it.
Also apparently, accoriding to you, 325 contains content but it doesn't? Like, that can be faked.
488 is opportunistic. The narative being built here sucks. The vote is just scum.

I will summarize why this case 'fucking sucks' (to coin a phrase).

54 - This is a misrep; nowhere did I say or imply that I felt the need to have a stance (in fact I did the opposite, by saying I normally keep my cards close to my chest early on). My meta is pretty out of date but if you look at any of my previous games you'll probably find that I try and move the game out of RVS as soon as possible; I like to get down to the nitty gritty straight away. That's just how I approach the early game.

85 - I didn't throw shade at all, and the fact that Alisae has avoided my question to explain this not only shows that she fabricated it, but it's just sketchy behaviour in general.

214 - I gave a firm opinion on Klick, but obviously from my perspective it could go either way - I wasn't trying to pretend otherwise. Many times in the past I've been fooled by very convincing scum players, so I always carry around with me the thought that I could be wrong.

224 - I explained this one pretty well already; I felt like Klick was the one who actually did the test and was genuine in his intentions, while Datisi just kind of jumped on it and stole his thunder. This was the only meaningful thing she did until she was called out, so I think my comment was pretty fair.

318 - It's called Iso'ing - it's a standard practice in Mafia. I re-read the Iso giving my thoughts as they came to me, some new, some thoughts that were already established. This is also a complete contradiction to your earlier point that I'm scum because I didn't have a frm stance on Klick - make your mind up.

325 - err, I gave a read and my reasoning behind it. That is pretty much the definition of content.

488 - I will go into more detail about my Datisi progression soon, but it wasn't in the least opportunistic. I could have readily placed my vote on Datisi at any time.

this rebuttal sucks vote this shit

[Iconeum]

this rebuttal sucks vote this shit

it doesn't and your case sucks

[Iconeum]

Like seriously
If you’re actually town
Why would you give a fuck about post 85
Its so insignificant in the grand scheme of things that I could make up any kind of bullshit I want about any post that was super early in the game and he would be furious about it
Like, don’t you think town here would think “Okay, maybe its not so important and I’ll just move on”
Instead, it gives scum!Luca an opportunity to make a really big deal about something that isn’t really a big deal at all

I'd make a big deal out of it too. You call him out for shading in that post, and there's literally nothing there. He asks you to explain it and you are dodging/refusing to go into it. Like, part of your case on him is literally a lie on your part, of shading in itself, or just blatant misrep. Take your pick.

it's not insignificant

[Iconeum]

Most of the people on Datisi wagon (and we literally can't all be scum) seem to think there's enough to lynch Datisi over.
You haven't exactly tried to convince us it's a bad case, even though you have stated your reason why you think Dat is town.

Other then trying to force-feed your Luca read upon this game, there's very little effort to dig deeper into why Datisi was being wagoned, not the motivation behind players on the Datisi wagon (something Datisi is refusing to look into herself).

[Iconeum]

You can literally think it's a poor case, but questioning people's motives for joining a case is often a lot more worth then an actual case.

Deliberately putting out a 'bad' case on someone is even a way of scumhunting (trying to see who follows you on and for what reasons).

[Alisae]

Ali, I was reading you while you were catching up, and from the very first few posts I had a feeling you were gonna step in and protect Datisi. I just knew it. They way you handled the current gamestate (focusing on Luca rather then the actual current wagon) didn't feel right to me, and you said 'i'm caught up' without ever even touching on Datisi. I was mildly annoyed by this, and I started calling you out.

When you then started shifting perspectives and onto a scumread from me, I tend to overreact but also because I saw it coming from a mile away. You think I'm trying to control town? Well, maybe I am. I'm that kind of player. Especially in games where I feel I'm really into, I tend to try and control gamestate. Also I think I do this way more often as town then as scum, because of the confidence it takes.

My main issue is how easily you brushed the Datisi wagon aside, and I strongly felt that it could easily be just you/Datisi for scumteam.
However, I'm working really hard on my tunneling problems that I have and I'm open to anyone's suggestions so let's do this

how I catch-up has a lot to do with playstyle. I wanted to keep everything to myself and talk about things in one go but I still had some questions that were in my head and both of you were around. So I don’t really see a reason to talk about my concrete thoughts when I could question you and datisi. I was mostly still trying to figure things out and was trying to understand both perspectives.

I really don’t know what gave you this feeling, but I am kind of weirded out by your superstition? A couple of reasons
A. Why is it even there?
B. I think that its a sign that you thought I was going to go against you and you didn’t want to hear me out.
Like the fact you have it kind of tells me that you thought I was working against you?
Are you scum?
Thats the only reason why I would want to work against you.

I’m here to find the truth dude.

Anyhow, why do you feel like I needed to respond to the Datisi wagon immediately?
- Both of you were present while I was catching up
- Because both of you were present, I could have asked you two any questions I wanted giving a stance

Sure by the questions you can tell I didn’t exactly like the wagon and before I stated the wagon was shit.
And it was.
And I was going to address it.
But I didn’t see the point when I could just talk to the both of you before I needed to give an opinion on it. Like, I’m not in some rush or anything.

[Alisae]

Right now i've got an 'all or nothing' read on Ali. It's either Ali/Datisi or town!Ali.
I'm completely biased because of the way Ali handled the Datisi affair.

But there are a lot of worlds where this comes from town!Ali so i'm not touching that today.

I still think Datisi is the correct lynch however. Don't think I want to lynch outside of (Datisi/Nippleflips) today because I share the sentiment by Luca.

You cared so much about my stance on that wagon
But you don’t mention it or try to convince me that I could be wrong?

[Alisae]

this rebuttal sucks vote this shit

it doesn't and your case sucks

saying that everything I posted comes from scum and there is not truth in it whatsoever is a scumtell

Tho tbf
I’ve never been good at cases

[Alisae]

Like seriously
If you’re actually town
Why would you give a fuck about post 85
Its so insignificant in the grand scheme of things that I could make up any kind of bullshit I want about any post that was super early in the game and he would be furious about it
Like, don’t you think town here would think “Okay, maybe its not so important and I’ll just move on”
Instead, it gives scum!Luca an opportunity to make a really big deal about something that isn’t really a big deal at all

I'd make a big deal out of it too. You call him out for shading in that post, and there's literally nothing there. He asks you to explain it and you are dodging/refusing to go into it. Like, part of your case on him is literally a lie on your part, of shading in itself, or just blatant misrep. Take your pick.

it's not insignificant

its only significance is the fact that people are making it significant.
That post doesn’t really shape the

current

gamestate
Therefore it is insignificant
When it was posted-
Oh wait a minute that would go into the reason why that it was shading I can’t post that!

[Datisi]

My Datisi read progression:

54 - I had

slightly negative early vibes

on Datisi early on; nothing significant, but I threw it out there in an attempt to get the ball rolling.

215 - I reaffirm my

slightly negative view

on Datisi, this time more based on the lack of content.

224 - I decide to Iso Datisi in an attempt to establish a firmer read. The context here is that I had been scumreading Flippy and close to voting him until his 'townslip', when I reviewed it, gave me pause for thought, so I decided to look in the direction of my other 'below null' read. In this post I was genuinely trying to establish whether Datisi had town motivation behind her 'test', which as I've said is the only thing of significance she had done by this point. Possibly biased by the fact I had so many TR's and so few SR's at this point, I interpreted it more likely as being scum at a loss for what to do to look Townie. Certainly I could see a mindset of 'if I make it look like I deliberately caused a townslip, I will look Townie myself'. Klick's test had a more genuine feel due to the fact he unvoted Pilgrim yet didn't immediately explain, and therefore try to take credit for the test.

By this point in the game I'm also becoming increasingly aware that Datisi is ignoring everything I'm saying about her. Incidentally, I read in the scum chat of one her previous games where she asked her partner if she should ignore the scumreads she was getting - this gave me a slight ping, but I wanted to keep it to myself at this point to see how it developed.

349 and 351 -

I thought it didn't quite add up that she had given no signs of scumreading me at all

(quite the contrary, in fact) and yet now she was saying my posts have been fake the whole time.

What you failed to mention however, is that in that game RC came out with me as his strongest SR (rightfully so - my play was godawful) and kept continuously pushing me, and I was trying to ignore that. You, however, have expressed having "very slightly negative vibes" on me twice. Was I supposed to jump onto that?

Also, you say how me ignoring your "negative vibes" is what made you doubt me,

but you decided to not say anything to see how that developed

.

Yet your literal next sentence is saying how you thought it was weird that I was "sudeenly SRing you", even though I had said that I wanted to give you some time to see if I would be getting better vibes from you.

VOTE: Luca

Alisae - either you're playing some convoluted long con or you're Town, you had a perfect opportunity to jump onto my wagon
Billy, Klick, A50
Tchill
---
Emperor - Icon is also around here somewhere but I don't know what to make of him rn
---
Luca

I agree with you on Ali here. If I hadn't called you out and pushed you, would you be townreading me more?

I'm not SRing you because you called me out and started pushing me, I think that aligns with town!Icon. I'm SRing you because you called me out, started pushing me, gave up and said you think I'm Town, and after others said that they still think I'm scum and that you're my partner, you

jumped back on and gave some half-assed AtE excuse about using soft gloves on me or whatever.

Other then trying to force-feed your Luca read upon this game, there's very little effort to dig deeper into why Datisi was being wagoned, not the motivation behind players on the Datisi wagon (

something Datisi is refusing to look into herself

).

I did say I think your motivations are scummy.

[Alisae]

In fact let me help you some.. THIS is a recent scum game of Ali's

P-edit: Why are you interpreting everything I say as if I'm saying "you're scum because of this"? Is it because I'm currently voting you? I am still trying to figure you out and you're not in "imminent danger" still. (I mean, sure.. this is a bloody MICRO so OF COURSE every vote counts, but by standards of a Micro L-2 is still not dangerous. Consuder yourself @L-4 .. with 5 votes on you in a 17 players game)

something I’ve done before as scum is linked scumgames where I’ve played so fucking horribly that because I wasn’t playing that horribly I was town.
Lets go into why this game isn’t a good example
A. That was multiball and this isn’t. Also I hate multiball
B. I didn’t take that game too seriously

A more recent scumgame thats singleball would probably be stellaris.
But the only thing that is very relevant in my scumgames is the fact that I freak out whenever I don’t feel like things are going my way.

[Alisae]

I don't share Ali's scumread on Luca

can you explain your read?

[Alisae]

I kind of still have my scumread on Icon tbh
I kind of don’t think his Datisi read is natural at this point

[Alisae]

L-1 Datisi sweetheart

Claim

btw
I don’t like this post

[Iconeum]

I kind of still have my scumread on Icon tbh
I kind of don’t think his Datisi read is natural at this point

[Iconeum]

Ali I think you came into this game with the intention of helping Datisi and steering away from her lynch, into a scumread of me.

There, my honest thoughts.

[Iconeum]

If a game is developing towards the lynch of player x, it's only natural that a player catching up devotes time and attention to that. Especially with player x being at L-1. You saying you don't have to do that, or do it later and 'plenty of time' is just not natural.