Mini Normal 2095 - Game Over!

[Iconeum]

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All of these are posts where I engage with you for the intention of reading you/engaging you over your reads or mine

[Iconeum]

There's also no way I'm supporting a Luca lynch today with both Datisi and Ali on it

[Alisae]

I know I mentioned this earlier
but I was going to go into this with the mentality to dominate (from my perspective, I've been enjoying this considering its been awhile since I've been in situations as town where I felt like I was in a 1v1, and considering I like you, I wanted to have some fun with it and add in some shit talk).
I feel like I've treated you fine compared to Luca

Are you not enjoying the game because of me?

[Iconeum]

I know I mentioned this earlier
but I was going to go into this with the mentality to dominate (from my perspective, I've been enjoying this considering its been awhile since I've been in situations as town where I felt like I was in a 1v1, and considering I like you, I wanted to have some fun with it and add in some shit talk).
I feel like I've treated you fine compared to Luca

Are you not enjoying the game because of me?

If you wanna bully your way through the lynches, you'll have to deal with me first. If you have an actual scumread on Luca, that's fine. Datisi is also pushing there and I've come to terms for her reasoning. I have not done so with yours and have dedicated a larger post as to the why.

So why are you 'not' treating Luca fine?

I'm having fun this game don't you worry about me

[Alisae]

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All of these are posts where I engage with you for the intention of reading you/engaging you over your reads or mine

I know in Datisi in particular, none of these posts actually describe what I'm looking for, which is addressing the reason why I find Datisi town and my Datisi read itself.
In these posts, you have never addressed the read itself and instead just said "You came into the thread with the goal to protect her"
Because you never addressed the read itself, you came across as scummy to me.
Your mentality was that I was working against you, and I don't want to work against you
If we are both town, I want to work with you and solve the game with you
I really don't feel like you gave me room to do that when it came to Datisi because you kind of just ignored why I was defending Datisi so hard and refused to be open to town!Datisi

[Alisae]

I know I mentioned this earlier
but I was going to go into this with the mentality to dominate (from my perspective, I've been enjoying this considering its been awhile since I've been in situations as town where I felt like I was in a 1v1, and considering I like you, I wanted to have some fun with it and add in some shit talk).
I feel like I've treated you fine compared to Luca

Are you not enjoying the game because of me?

If you wanna bully your way through the lynches, you'll have to deal with me first. If you have an actual scumread on Luca, that's fine. Datisi is also pushing there and I've come to terms for her reasoning. I have not done so with yours and have dedicated a larger post as to the why.

So why are you 'not' treating Luca fine?

I'm having fun this game don't you worry about me

First off, I feel better that you're having fun. If you weren't, I would have left.
Secondly, a lot of my viciousness, hostility, and aggressiveness towards Luca is because of my mentality that if I give Luca room to talk, he will get someone to townread them, and I don't want to leave him with that breathing room.
I also just
don't see him being town?
I really just don't.

[Iconeum]

You also don't see him as scum. You vote him, a LOT. Also 'bruuuh'. That was literally the extent of your scumread on him.

[Datisi]

If you wanna bully your way through the lynches, you'll have to deal with me first. If you have an actual scumread on Luca, that's fine.

Datisi is also pushing there and I've come to terms for her reasoning

. I have not done so with yours and have dedicated a larger post as to the why.

Didn't you say that Ali had more reasons of pushing Luca than I did? How come you're now fine with my view on his posts? Or does this mean it's a sorta agree-to-disagree thing?

[Alisae]

You pushed hard against Datisi wagon without bothering to explain why it was town, until you were pushed to do so.

I feel like I've said this so many times and you like
don't want to read what I'm saying at all

I don't feel like repeating myself anymore
why do you feel like I needed to urgently respond to your concern as soon as possible?
You and Datisi were both actively posting in thread and I wanted to engage both of you before I describe my thoughts ITT
I wanted to attempt to grasp the situation at its fullest.

[Alisae]

You also don't see him as scum. You vote him, a LOT. Also 'bruuuh'. That was literally the extent of your scumread on him.

I wanted to put my thoughts in 1 cohesive post.
I don't see what's wrong with that?

[Alisae]

Fuck sake, I remember why I stopped playing this game now.

(this post isn't intended to cause anyone any harm or be intentionally hurtful)

I almost replaced out when I saw alisae replace in.

I hope you keep playing. Just ignore the tunneling and vomit posting.

I also share this sentiment, for what it's worth. Seeing 10+ pages of 'Luca is obvious scum why isn't he lynched yet also I'm just trying to piss him off' has really killed any chance I have of catching up any time soon, considering my current circumstances.

Don't read those 10+ pages
you won't get anything out of them

[Chemist1422]

VC 1.9

Luca Blight (3)

- Alisae, Billy Pilgrim, Datisi

Datisi (2)

- Tchill13, Luca Blight

Alisae (1)

- Iconeum

Not Voting (3)

- Almost50, Emperor flippyNips, Klick

With 9 alive, majority is 5.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-08-28 07:00:00)

Notes

Klick is V/LA for a few days.
Iconeum is V/LA for the weekend.

[Klick]

Klick
Billy
Datisi
Tchill
Icon

Alisae
Luca
A50
Emperor

Top is town to the point that I'm not interested in lynching anytime soon. Bottom is what's left. Datisi in particular has looked townie in her interaction with Icon - her motives in that exchange clearly seemed to be sorting Icon over anything else in a way that seemed genuine.

Also, thanks Ali. I'll have my own look soon.

[Alisae]

636 finally is more extensive, but alas made up.

'Luca - His whole ISO sucks. Nothing in there is actually substanial at all. All of his reads come across as making stuff up on the fly (a lot of times when he is talking about a read, he gives himself room for said read to go either way). He's not really taking any risks and is in general playing really safe. I really want to see Luca go after something instead of just do nothing. Because a lot of what his ISO is nothing. And anything that like, remotely looks like analysis is really surface level stuff.
54 is just a gut scummy start mostly because I don't like the fact he has to feel like he has to have a stance first thing.'

Did anyone think Luca was shading/not taking a stance? I sure didn't. Because he was.

After this there is a TON of bullshit posts directed at Luca that contain little more then 'waah waah scum is crying' or worse.

I seriously don't feel like Ali is serious about this case he has on Luca, and it feels like the ketchup was 'steered' onto a Luca scumread from the getgo.

A lot of the content in this post is "Ali isn't explaining anything"
thats intentional, that catch-up was mostly for myself.
I was always planing on writing a few posts wraping up my general thoughts. 602 is where I mentioned that I was going to touch up on it, and I followed through on that.

As for this itself, one thing I saw a lot in Luca's ISO was that he was leaving a lot of room in how he was talking about reads for things to change, and he was doing this about like, mostly everything. It really bothered me. He did it for you, he did it for Klick, he did it for Datisi. His play really came across as adjusting his reads to tailor to what was going on at the time.

Why did you think the catch-up was for you?
It wasn't, it was for me to get up to speed and caught up.

[Alisae]

Klick
Billy
Datisi
Tchill
Icon

Alisae
Luca
A50
Emperor

Top is town to the point that I'm not interested in lynching anytime soon. Bottom is what's left. Datisi in particular has looked townie in her interaction with Icon - her motives in that exchange clearly seemed to be sorting Icon over anything else in a way that seemed genuine.

Also, thanks Ali. I'll have my own look soon.

im here if u need me

[Alisae]

Klick/Icon can I try to sell you on Luca atm or would that be like, a waste of time?
Like if I brought up something on why you should vote him, would you engage on me about it and would we have a conversation about it if you disagree, and if you agreed would you vote him?

[Iconeum]

If you wanna bully your way through the lynches, you'll have to deal with me first. If you have an actual scumread on Luca, that's fine.

Datisi is also pushing there and I've come to terms for her reasoning

. I have not done so with yours and have dedicated a larger post as to the why.

Didn't you say that Ali had more reasons of pushing Luca than I did? How come you're now fine with my view on his posts? Or does this mean it's a sorta agree-to-disagree thing?

I don't think I did. Quote me on that?
And I came to terms with your pov a couple of posts ago, I said as much there

[Klick]

I'm not closed to voting Luca atm, but equally I'm not really around to chat for a few hours at least

[Iconeum]

To be honest, going through that post, reading Ali's comments and then reading back to Luca's posts, it's just reminded me why I thought he was scum in the first place. His posts still feel fabricated and manipulative in a way that you "want" to agree with them.I still don't see scum!Ali's motivation here.

Ok if that's your actual point of view on Luca that's fine

. You also like Ali's progression towards scumreading Luca?

This is me accepting you can genuinly feel what you are seeing.

I seriously doubt I ever mentioned Ali having good or better reasons for voting Luca, I've been pretty adamant about my opinion that Ali's case is based on thin air.

[Datisi]

To be honest, going through that post, reading Ali's comments and then reading back to Luca's posts, it's just reminded me why I thought he was scum in the first place. His posts still feel fabricated and manipulative in a way that you "want" to agree with them.I still don't see scum!Ali's motivation here.

Ok if that's your actual point of view on Luca that's fine

. You also like Ali's progression towards scumreading Luca?

This is me accepting you can genuinly feel what you are seeing.

I seriously doubt I ever mentioned Ali having good or better reasons for voting Luca, I've been pretty adamant about my opinion that Ali's case is based on thin air.

Guess I misunderstood you saying "come to terms". I just felt that mine and Ali's reasons are kinda close, so I didn't get why accept mine but not theirs.

Also I have a faint memory of someone saying something along the lines of "Ali explained their reads while Datisi gave shit vague explanations", but at this point I have no idea if that actually happened and who said it if it did.

[Alisae]

And yet everything I’ve said is consistent and has been backed-up.

If you notice, I’ve not had to pause to think amongst this barrage of questioning and accusation, and yet everything I’ve said has been fully supported and consistent with what I’ve said previously. How is this possible? Because I’m being honest with what I’m saying.

I called these posts scumclaims and I see them as scumclaims and I think they hold some value.

I don't feel like this is town mentality.
I actually had a conversation about this with Llamarble (probably one of the best scumhunters I've ever had the pleasure of playing with) which came from a game where they were pushing scum, and one of the points he used was ["He even admitted X" is one of my favorite scum-constructions!] and I wanted him to explain the concept further on why that was scummy
Source

He thne writes this
Subject: TBD Mafia 2 [game over]

I've noticed in my own (and others' but most of my scumtells are differences I notice between my own scum / town games) play that scum gravitate toward this phrasing more often.
I believe the reason for this is scum feel a greater need to concretely justify themselves to others whereas town know that their own righteousness will clear them eventually.
So scum go for arguments like "Behold the inconsistency or error this player made!" or better yet "they :admitted: to this scummy thing!" because that even claims their target shouldn't disapprove of them.
Sorry if I haven't fully expressed the idea, but I think it's an important one. I guess to summarize, scum want their reasoning to be ironclad and look really good; town want their reasoning to be right.

I feel like this is a correct way to use this, because Luca is trying to say that he's consistent and he backed his stuff up and because of that he's implying that his play is better then mine.
I don't feel like this town because of that.

I don't think Luca comes across as wanting to be right at all, but rather have something thats just very solid and looks good, and him saying that his posts look good and are solid and using that to imply that his play is better really pings me here

[Alisae]

oh yeah btw
the person he was pushing was scum
ik i said that, but I want to reiterate that.

[Klick]

My biggest hangup about that reasoning is that based on my reading so far in Luca's meta, this seems to be largely a personality tell and I don't feel heavily convinced that he wouldn't use this overly logical reasoning as town.

[Alisae]

if you were to take Luca's play here, do you see anything that would suggest that he wants to be correct?

[Alisae]

also what sample pool are you drawing from when it comes to Luca's meta?