Undertale Semi-Open Dead PT

[popsofctown]

All the Undertale songs are amazing so I don't feel particularly pressed about disagreeing with people about how to rank them.

[Chemist1422]

All the Undertale songs are amazing so I don't feel particularly pressed about disagreeing with people about how to rank them.

That's fair

[popsofctown]

It is such a good setup. I would play another run of this. Remember the secret scum strat I messaged you?

I looked it up. I won't out the strat in case you'd like to use it. It's not as applicable in the smalltown version.

I think this setup is very worthy of additional runs, as-is* (with a clarification letting scum, but only scum, act from the spared PT) (and I like my pacifism choose 1 of 5 suggestion but that's not critical). I like the idea of going smalltown even more but I think this setup is miles better than things people are running all the time. I'm hoping people besides me start to want to run it.

Maybe I should have contradicted additional aspects of how S_S would have modded it so he starts modding the setup out of indignation. He won the contest with this setup then went on to run some silly closed setup (silly closed setup simplifies to "closed setup" for me btw) when he should be running this one!

[Oversoul]

I think this setup excels where others fail because of the options you have available to you. Spare, Genocide, Neutral are all dictated by different things and be moved into or out of at (well Neutral can) at a moment’s notice. Spare contradicts traditional mafia tactics but Genocide also punishes town and scum equally so it forces scum to want to do Neutral

[popsofctown]

I don't know if you've read the whole dead thread but I've calculated the level of fake townspew needed for scum to win Pacifist and Genocide routes to be equivalent.

[Oversoul]

Pops, I think you've been a great mod! I have enjoyed myself. Although, that may have come at the cost of the greater game-state and other players' happiness. I did not intend for that to happen. But if town wins I think they'll suck it up.

One day pops, we will be town together and #rekt the scums.

[volxen]

Alright alright alright, I won't torture Oversoul anymore. Yes, I am scum!

But the question is.... who is my partner?

Place your bets on Chennisden/Elements/Adorable being my partner. Win 100,000,000 Volxen dollars if you get it right!

[Oversoul]

In a way, I am happy that I banished Chennis to the shadow realm so he could not poison my mind with heresy such as Volxen town.

[Oversoul]

Adorable's 690 is pretty scummy.

[volxen]

I don't know if you've read the whole dead thread but I've calculated the level of fake townspew needed for scum to win Pacifist and Genocide routes to be equivalent.

Both me and my partner didn't really like Genocide because it requires you to pull off four mislynches to win. Usually when scum needs four mislynches it's because there are three scum. Four mislynches is a lot to pull off when there are only two scum. Not to mention that Genocide gives town the most information by far, with consistent flips along with the LOVE mechanic, which can be leashed/controlled.

There are other reasons why Pacifist benefits scum as well. One big one -- which surprisingly wasn't brought up a lot in the game thread -- is that it usually is easier to fake a townread on a townie than it is to fake a scumread on them. With the Pacifist route, the game primarily revolves around townhunting rather than scumhunting, which appealed to both me and my partner. I think on some level the Pacifist route is easier than the Genocide (or even Neutral) route as scum, because with each mislynch wagon that you are on you open yourself up to more and more scrutiny as the town gains more and more information. Whereas the Pacifist route denies town of key information and allows the town (if it is not vigilant) to be lulled into a false sense of security. And in particular, it allows you push your partner towards a spare on the grounds that they are the towniest player in the game. You can do this without consequence as long as everyone is convinced that it is optimal to stay on the Pacifist route rather than switch to the Neutral route. Even if you are unable to get yourself spared after getting your partner spared, it still hurts town when the core is reached in the Pacifist route because no one can ever prove that you were scum.

[Oversoul]

I don't know if you've read the whole dead thread but I've calculated the level of fake townspew needed for scum to win Pacifist and Genocide routes to be equivalent.

Both me and my partner didn't really like Genocide because it requires you to pull off four mislynches to win. Usually when scum needs four mislynches it's because there are three scum. Four mislynches is a lot to pull off when there are only two scum. Not to mention that Genocide gives town the most information by far, with consistent flips along with the LOVE mechanic, which can be leashed/controlled.

There are other reasons why Pacifist benefits scum as well. One big one -- which surprisingly wasn't brought up a lot in the game thread -- is that it usually is easier to fake a townread on a townie than it is to fake a scumread on them. With the Pacifist route, the game primarily revolves around townhunting rather than scumhunting, which appealed to both me and my partner. I think on some level the Pacifist route is easier than the Genocide (or even Neutral) route as scum, because with each mislynch wagon that you are on you open yourself up to more and more scrutiny as the town gains more and more information. Whereas the Pacifist route denies town of key information and allows the town (if it is not vigilant) to be lulled into a false sense of security. And in particular, it allows you push your partner towards a spare on the grounds that they are the towniest player in the game. You can do this without consequence as long as everyone is convinced that it is optimal to stay on the Pacifist route rather than switch to the Neutral route. Even if you are unable to get yourself spared after getting your partner spared, it still hurts town when the core is reached in the Pacifist route because no one can ever prove that you were scum.

This is partially the reason I played the way I did. Race to the bottom is a very valid scum strategy and its effects are multiplied in a Spare scenario. It is why I did not trust Chennis for so long, but decided to swallow my ego and spare him

hold it over everyone's head in endgame when he flipped scum

. I think town needs a leader throughout otherwise scum will definitely get in.

Losing 2 of the top 3 townies every phase is hard when you get down to the last two Spares. It is partially why I capitulated with Adorable. At the time, I was never going to spare you, DEB, or Something_Smart. Ideally, we would spare me, but I knew that was a snowball's chance in heck because people

fear

scum read what they don't understand. Adorable was the next best option from my point of view and I did not read her as a team with anyone currently in the Spare room, so I thought it was safe even if I was wrong on my individual read on her.

I think if you played this game 100 times, that town would outright win maybe 25% of the time with 4 straight town spares. I want to narrow my hypothesis even further and state that scum will get into the Spare room more often than not via the last two Spares before the core.

That said, Volxen I scumread you, or at least didn't townread you, because Chennis was so adamant you would make yourself town. When that never materialized, I felt it was better to not let in. I also thought it was weird that you never advocated for yourself to be spared because from a town perspective, that is the only spare you could guarantee being town. Correct me if I am wrong, but I felt like you were deliberately avoiding talking about sparing yourself as a way to engender trust among the town in a "look, I'm being so town/selfless I don't even want to be spared" sort of way. Compare that to Something_Smart's insistence on wanting to be spared, Chennisden's wanting to be spared, my wanting to be spared, etc.

[Oversoul]

Mod can you make that incorrect [/i] a [/s]? TY

[popsofctown]

I don't know if you've read the whole dead thread but I've calculated the level of fake townspew needed for scum to win Pacifist and Genocide routes to be equivalent.

Both me and my partner didn't really like Genocide because it requires you to pull off four mislynches to win. Usually when scum needs four mislynches it's because there are three scum. Four mislynches is a lot to pull off when there are only two scum. Not to mention that Genocide gives town the most information by far, with consistent flips along with the LOVE mechanic, which can be leashed/controlled.

There are other reasons why Pacifist benefits scum as well. One big one -- which surprisingly wasn't brought up a lot in the game thread -- is that it usually is easier to fake a townread on a townie than it is to fake a scumread on them. With the Pacifist route, the game primarily revolves around townhunting rather than scumhunting, which appealed to both me and my partner. I think on some level the Pacifist route is easier than the Genocide (or even Neutral) route as scum, because with each mislynch wagon that you are on you open yourself up to more and more scrutiny as the town gains more and more information. Whereas the Pacifist route denies town of key information and allows the town (if it is not vigilant) to be lulled into a false sense of security. And in particular, it allows you push your partner towards a spare on the grounds that they are the towniest player in the game. You can do this without consequence as long as everyone is convinced that it is optimal to stay on the Pacifist route rather than switch to the Neutral route. Even if you are unable to get yourself spared after getting your partner spared, it still hurts town when the core is reached in the Pacifist route because no one can ever prove that you were scum.

The idea is that this 9-2 setup has one more mislynch needed than, say, a newbie queue micro, but far less town power. I kind of question the "far less town power" part and am usually the one in open setup design pushing against high town EVs, which is why I ran this setup with several of Something_Smart's more powerful potential roles excluded and suggested a last minute nerf for Asgore.
The prevailing belief when the setup was being workshopped is that Pacifist was generally the most attractive route. I think when there are strong arguments both ways and the answer seems unclear that's exciting.

I want to point out that the scum can leverage some of your benefits for the pacifist route when playing the genocide route! Day 1 in a standard 2 scum game, if day 1 is ultimately going to be a d1 correct lynch, a scumpartner either has to be placing a vote that is wrong, or helping shoot his own foot. In Undertale you can vanity wagon a spare on another player and lose far less towncred for failing to participate in the lynch. The spare was even correct!

I'm optimistic the smalltown design can create more tempting reasons to bail into neutral.

[popsofctown]

Alright alright alright, I won't torture Oversoul anymore. Yes, I am scum!

But the question is.... who is my partner?

Place your bets on Chennisden/Elements/Adorable being my partner. Win 100,000,000 Volxen dollars if you get it right!

I'm always a fan of torturing Oversoul, but the game is kind of an open book right now.

Wish I could change the rules on the fly to let you scumchat Adorable and help her out with this 1v2 she's gotten into but you'll have to rely on the honorary 3rd mafia Something_Smart trying to derail it.

Allowing scumchat between the RFG-not-flipped player and the solo scum doesn't seem gamebreaking and it kind of feels like a "fair" treatment for a scum who wasn't gotcha'd by the town directly to retain speaking privileges, it seems like something to look into for next time.

[popsofctown]

like, perhaps the plan was adorable deepwolves and presumably volxen maybe flips and like that's an avenue to push me, or to get me off balance at least.

Is volxen's scumgame that bad? I seriously doubt a volxen/Adorable team would count on Adorable to deepwolf.

Wow so mean.

[popsofctown]

Mislynches are -mostly- not the fault of the player being mislynched imo

[popsofctown]

Guys I can probably just write an endgame scene for Adorable lynch or Elements lynch and just use either one right.

Like this never swings chennis right

[Oversoul]

Guys I can probably just write an endgame scene for Adorable lynch or Elements lynch and just use either one right.

Like this never swings chennis right

Correct.

[Oversoul]

The fact that Chennis is so die hard OS scum is what differentiates him from me. I at least recognized my own tunnel vision and corrected for it.

[Oversoul]

/s by the way in case that wasn’t obvious. Sometimes it’s too dharp

[volxen]

like, perhaps the plan was adorable deepwolves and presumably volxen maybe flips and like that's an avenue to push me, or to get me off balance at least.

Is volxen's scumgame that bad? I seriously doubt a volxen/Adorable team would count on Adorable to deepwolf.

Wow so mean.

I didn't really put a lot of effort into getting townread. Hyperposting is usually required (regardless of alignment) to be a top-tier townread, and I don't usually hyperpost as either alignment. Even as town my playstyle doesn't usually lead to being mass townread. This is why a lot of people have a hard time reading me, especially people playing with me for the first time. On some level I can relate to Oversoul here, because I've had many instances where I've been incorrectly scumread as town because people simply didn't understand why I was doing what I was doing.

Like take SS for example. He was right about me being scum, but his reasoning for calling me scum was in reality NAI for me. The conclusion that I came to when I explained why Nips rather than Adorable was nightkilled is a conclusion that anyone closely following the game could easily come to. Everything that I said in that post was factually true: 1) Chemist had Adorable high up on his readslist, so she was objectively likely to be protected from scum's POV assuming that she is town, 2) Adorable was townread by a lot of people (Elements, SS, DDL, Nips, Chemist), and 3) Nips was townread by some players (DDL and Oversoul) but he was not as widely townread as Adorable, which made him an objectively safer nightkill compared to Adorable, especially when Chemist's readlist is taken into account (again, assuming that both of them are town). Thus, it was a reasonable conclusion to come to just using the publicly available information in the game thread. SS was insinuating that I couldn't have possibly come to that conclusion from an uninformed (i.e., town) perspective, which is just not true.

[popsofctown]

Yeah I thought that push from S_S was weird I was upset the rules thing blocked you guys from an otherwise optimal Adorable NK like 1.5 days in advance of it the night, it seemed like a pretty obvious night layout.

[volxen]

By the way, there was someone in the spare PT who came to almost the exact same conclusion as I did regarding why Nips was nightkilled over Adorable (my partner shared posts from the spare PT in the scum PT). Chemist knows exactly what I am talking about, but I won't say whether that person is my partner or not.

[volxen]

It would be interesting with the Pacifist route to have all non-spared but non-killed players still around in the game as tree-stumps after the core is reached. Meaning that said players could still post in the game thread (and the scum PT if they are scum), but they could not vote. I think that would be balanced, yes? And it would make sense since said players are technically not dead.

[volxen]

Pops, I really would like to play this setup again with this same playerlist. After this game is finished, you should bribe MariaR so you can jump ahead of everyone else in the Mini Theme game mod queue and run this setup again as soon as this current game ends. Furthermore, for my amusement and enjoyment, please do the following for your second run of the game:

- Make me Undyne so we can follow the Genocide route and I can be a bulletproof IC badass.

- Make Chennisden and Oversoul be scum together for the lulz.

Thanks, I trust you will make all of this happen!