Undertale Semi-Open Dead PT

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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:24 pm

Post by popsofctown »

In post 123, volxen wrote:It would be interesting with the Pacifist route to have all non-spared but non-killed players still around in the game as tree-stumps after the core is reached. Meaning that said players could still post in the game thread (and the scum PT if they are scum), but they could not vote. I think that would be balanced, yes? And it would make sense since said players are technically not dead.
I've contemplated this design. My design with the special NK removed is a light step in this direction, actually.
I still lean towards pacificist being pretty townsided as it stands and the town not needing this to get their 50%-in-practice winrate (it obviously has zero EV value).

The closest I could come to this in something I'd be excited about modding is a smalltown role whose power summons 1 just player for additional inputs if the town chooses to spare that player.

If empirical evidence shows that your minority view that pacifist is the most scumsided route to begin with proves to be correct this is definitely a switch I would make.

It is actually a cute mimicry of some JRPGs in the genre.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:26 pm

Post by popsofctown »

In post 124, volxen wrote:Pops, I really would like to play this setup again with this same playerlist. After this game is finished, you should bribe MariaR so you can jump ahead of everyone else in the Mini Theme game mod queue and run this setup again as soon as this current game ends. Furthermore, for my amusement and enjoyment, please do the following for your second run of the game:

- Make me Undyne so we can follow the Genocide route and I can be a bulletproof IC badass.

- Make Chennisden and Oversoul be scum together for the lulz.

Thanks, I trust you will make all of this happen! :wink:
Sure thing

If I forget and accidentally make you Sans, just drop me a PM like Chemist did.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:25 pm

Post by volxen »

It's interesting that Oversoul/Elements and Oversoul/Adorable have both come up as possible scumteams, but no one has ever brought up Volxen/Elements. Everyone seems to think that I'm either scum with Adorable, or not scum at all.

I have to admit that it is kind of amusing that people are still talking about scum!Oversoul :wink:. I mean if Oversoul were scum, he probably would have just maintained his "paranoia" of SS and pushed for his own slot to be the fifth spare rather than SS. SS was scumreading me and was convinced that Oversoul was town, and if SS heal-voted Oversoul Deb most likely would have just sheeped him on that vote, because DEB basically spent the entire game sheeping SS. That's literally all scum!Oversoul would had to have done to get his slot spared; get SS to heal-vote him, and DEB would follow suit. In that sense I think that at this point Oversoul actually is obvious town despite some of his previous play, because there's no reason for scum!Oversoul to fake like he doesn't want the pressure of being in lylo when he could just win the game outright by getting his slot spared. So it's kind of hilarious that people are still entertaining the notion that he is scum.

But I also will say: People don’t seem to be taking into account that it made a lot of sense for me to push for Adorable being spared
regardless
of her alignment. Some food for thought.
"i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan " - xwing (Newbie 1889: Ice Cream)
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:31 pm

Post by popsofctown »

volxen I know you really bonded in the scum PT but if you roll scum without Adorable in my next game and play to her wincon over your own I will modkill you
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:10 pm

Post by volxen »

In particular, my stance this entire game was that I am a hard-to-read player and that we should spare consensus townreads. I had Adorable as a townread for most of the game, and it would have been inconsistent of me to suddenly switch gears on day four and push for my own slot to be spared rather than Adorable. As I saw it one of four things were likely to happen on day four:

1) Adorable would get spared.

2) Oversoul would get spared (with the help of SS and DEB).

3) SS would get lynched.

4) I would get lynched.

I thought about the possibility of trying to pull off an SS mislynch, but that would have required the support of both Adorable and Oversoul. At the beginning of day four that seemed plausible given Oversoul's scumread of SS, but he started to re-evaluate his read of SS while simultaneously expressing doubts about my slot. And DEB was never ever going to vote to lynch SS, so an SS mislynch would not have been possible without Oversoul's vote. It also would have been inconsistent of me to suddenly push for an SS lynch, when I spent the entire game adamantly pushing for the Pacifist route.

I was starting to get concerned about a {SS, DEB, Oversoul} townblock forming, and obviously I didn't want to risk getting lynched myself, as that's far worse than simply not getting spared. And Oversoul getting spared was not ideal, regardless of whether my partner is Adorable or someone who was already spared (Chennisden or Elements). So the best option at that point is to push for Adorable to be spared, since I had her as a "townread" for most of the game anyways. If Adorable is scum with me then I literally had no choice but to push for her spare (or my own spare) on day four if town was going to continue with the Pacifist route. If Adorable is town, that means that my partner was already spared and that 1) I could still try to push for my own slot to be fifth spare, which would make sense at that point since I wasn't townreading any of {SS, DEB, Oversoul} or 2) if I don't get spared it means that people think that I am scum, most likely with Adorable -- meaning that my push to get her spared sets her up as a likely mislynch after the core has been formed. Suffice to say, if Adorable is town then I think that I’ve done a good job of making her look like my partner and setting her up as a likely mislynch that wins the game for me and my partner.
If
she is town, that is. :P

Also, if Adorable is town and I had gotten lynched on day four it would have literally been
impossible
for me and my partner to win. Because once the core was formed, it would be revealed that one of {Chennisden, Elements} is scum, and my partner would still need to pull off
two
mislynches to win. So the best case scenario there is that my partner gets the other non-PR spared player mislynched, only to get lynched himself the next day. So again: Adorable getting spared (
regardless
of her alignment) is
significantly
better than me getting lynched in terms of me and my partner being able to meet our win condition. I'll leave you to ponder over all of that Oversoul. :wink:

So in short, based on the state of the game on day four, it made a lot of sense for me to push for Adorable to be spared regardless of her alignment. If I thought that I had a realistic chance of getting my own slot spared, I would have tried to have done that on day four regardless of whether Adorable is my partner or not. But I didn't think that I could get any of {SS, DEB, Oversoul} to heal-vote me.

And by the way, I
was
planning on pushing for my own slot to be the fifth spare. I didn't think that SS of all people would get speed spared like that. Oh well! :shifty:
"i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan " - xwing (Newbie 1889: Ice Cream)
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:22 pm

Post by volxen »

But seriously, I could play this setup over and over and over and I really enjoyed this playerlist. This setup should be run consistently. This is like my favorite setup now.

I expect you to never stop modding this setup, Pops. You run this setup once and you have a life-long commitment to keep running it. It's in the fine print.
"i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan " - xwing (Newbie 1889: Ice Cream)
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:57 pm

Post by volxen »

Actually, I think it would be fun to be town with Oversoul in this setup. Now that I know what his town game looks like, I think that we could work well together as townies. :wink:
"i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan " - xwing (Newbie 1889: Ice Cream)
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:00 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 128, popsofctown wrote:volxen I know you really bonded in the scum PT but if you roll scum without Adorable in my next game and play to her wincon over your own I will modkill you
:lol:
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:03 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 131, volxen wrote:Actually, I think it would be fun to be town with Oversoul in this setup. Now that I know what his town game looks like, I think that we could work well together as townies. :wink:
What were your and Adorable’s thoughts when I was actin’ like a fool on Day 1 and Day 2?
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:55 am

Post by popsofctown »

In post 130, volxen wrote:But seriously, I could play this setup over and over and over and I really enjoyed this playerlist. This setup should be run consistently. This is like my favorite setup now.

I expect you to never stop modding this setup, Pops. You run this setup once and you have a life-long commitment to keep running it. It's in the fine print.
There's 3 possibilities:

1. Other people start modding it often enough I stop modding it (because I stop modding altogether).
2. I mod a smalltown variant and try that out.
3. People aren't interested enough in the smalltown variant and I just mod this one over and over again.

Maybe 2 and 3 can be melded, I could ask for a majority vote on which variant to play from the people in signups, before alignments are rolled. Is that precedented in the queue, or frowned upon??
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:24 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

there's been similar I think
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.

Visit my
new
GTKAS page here!
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

Post by popsofctown »

I think Adorable is going to flip the lynch.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:13 am

Post by popsofctown »

This is not for you guys to read it's just this PT is doubling as my modnotes thread so this is where my drafts go.
Spoiler: Game outcome
The group pushed Elements out of the lab, locking the door behind him. He would be on his own to journey and explore.

They walked back into the first floor of the lab. They felt more and more sure that Something_Smart was a pretty good person. Finally, they realized why: Something_Smart was Alphys, a true friend.

"I'm certain Elements was the problem, but we need to reclaim our friends in the fog. I have a machine that will help us." Something_Smart says, smiling.
"Our souls can power it and send out a signal that dissuades the barrier."

Something_Smart pulled out a funny machine. It seemed to have 3 levers, covered in electrodes, jutting out from a golden cylinder. Atop it all was a radio dish.

"It takes three people to power."

Alphys pulled one lever, holding it down. A pale white, mystical flow traveled along her body and into the machine. She kept it held down.

"You guys now."

Adorable nodded, grabbing a lever. The stream flowed from her body to the machine as well, and the dish began a half hum signifying it was almost at full strength.

"You too", Something_Smart nodded at chennisden, after an adjustment of glasses. With a happy smile, chennisden reached for the lever.

At which point Adorable let go of her lever.

"Psyche, you disgusting creatures."

"We heard the monsters here were responsible for human deaths. So we ratcheted up the barrier to make its charge unstable, then came in so it'd start reaching for us. It's taken quite a while, but here it comes."

The nasty fog broke through a window. After several of Adorable's choice of words, they realized they were looking at a human - and had been, all this time.

"It's harmless to me, and it didn't harm volxen either. As for you - well becoming part of the barrier that keeps the underground empty forever doesn't leave you altogether purposeless, does it? But it definitely helped that you brought me to the geographic center of the underground. It helped the slaughter be so total and complete."

The monsters panic, and look for places to run, but the fog is at every window. Adorable is as calm as anything, laughing and laughing, and laughing. "And I'm so new! volxen has lots of EXP and LoVe, but he let me perform every kill!"

At a matching rate, Adorable's laughter grows more maniacal yet inaudible, as their existence is absorbed into the monolithic construct.

Congratulations to
Adorable and volxen
, the winners of Undertale SemiOpen! Well played to
Elements, chennisden, Dr Easy Bake, DrDoLittle, Oversoul, Something_Smart, Gamma Emerald, Chemist1422, and Emperor flippyNips
, the losers of Undertale SemiOpen!
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:56 am

Post by DrDolittle »

In post 136, popsofctown wrote:I think Adorable is going to flip the lynch.
idts!

This game is getting really boring in that it's like you know the material in school really well, and finished the exam (correctly) in 30 minutes, but spent the next 60 minutes checking your work. I don't know why it matters that much who the scum partner is... any theory on how the scum team operates is even further 3rd degree speculation (who's scum, who's partner, what's motivation) that is engulfed by noise.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:10 am

Post by popsofctown »

I think they want to lynch Adorable, but Adorable posts about once per 24 hours, so it feels "jumpy" to lynch her when she is still catching up to the halfway mark on chennisden or Element's content.

What matters is that they're having fun. You're in the dead thread, if you're getting bored you can remember the funner times at the beginning and go queue another game.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:52 am

Post by popsofctown »

I made a bunch of changes to my smalltown draft here: post 36

Some of it is based on his feedback about Pacifist vs. Genocide. I find a lot of it persuasive. Genocide being 2-9 mountainous is kind of like, balanced anyway, 2-9 mountainous is probably fine, and this new setup is stronger than 2-9 mountainous in the sense that you have options to bail into neutral if it offers a higher win%.
The Love mechanic was probably always about making Genocide less boring rather than more balanced, I think. So I put a genocide PR that is pretty interesting but a bit lower on power.
The current revision has two roles that can't be spared or are difficult to spare, which to me seems like a more interesting way to balance pacifist against neutral rather than jacking up the required number of spares to 5 or something. If the two roles that are both difficult to spare seem really townie this game, maybe this isn't the best time to go pacifist. If those two roles are both really scummy, cool go for it.
It'd be cool if I could manage more of that dynamic on the genocide side, but setting up a role that is just "you can't lynch this player" or "you can't lynch this player until X" happens is concerning. People get upset about governors and gladiators, and when there is no player's actions to blame for a mechanical inability to lynch someone who's openwolfing they might be even more upset. There is at least Moldsymal, a design a really like, who might get a hard guilty on night 1 but pretty much cuts neutral route out of consideration if he connects. And of course Metatron can verify an increase in townpoints and pull players towards neutral, that works on both pure paths.

EDIT: Oh wait, I lied, I did do a half-unlynchable slot. Ehhhh.. I think it's fine, it's too cute.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:59 am

Post by popsofctown »

A major design flaw in this setup that I didn't notice in open reviews and am only able to notice now because I'm playing Undertale between posts.

Why did Something_Smart use the word Kill.

The menu option in the game is "Fight". I'm actually not even sure the word Kill appears in the game, it may but it's not predominant. And it naturally creates frustrating ambiguities with the factional nightkill and any vigs you want to add to the setup.

I always forgave in the review because I thought it was important to the flavor.

Vote for the new lynch word:
-Fight
-Dust
-Soulbreak
-Shiv
-Ballet Shoes
-Panslap
-Hurt
-Execute
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:59 am

Post by popsofctown »

VOTE: Ballet Shoes
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:17 am

Post by Chemist1422 »

In post 142, popsofctown wrote:VOTE: Ballet Shoes
VOTE: hecking notebook to the face
GTKAS

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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:53 pm

Post by volxen »

In post 136, popsofctown wrote:I think Adorable is going to flip the lynch.
Since I'm playing through L.A. Noire I can't resist, but:

Image

Fun game, but some of the interrogations are hard! Anyways, I think that Adorable is making herself look fairly scummy by acting as though she is uncertain which of Chennisden or Elements is scum. This is the point in the game where it's important to take a definitive stance on who is scum and who is town -- coming off like you still don't know who scum is can potentially be a sign of scum unwilling to take a hard stance, so they can "keep their options open" and push whichever mislynch is easiest. Contrast this with Elements, who is taking a hard stance that Adorable is scum, and he has been consistent in this stance since the beginning of day five. If Elements is scum, he's locked himself into that position, because it would not be believable for him to do a 180 on his Chennisden read at this point. This is probably a playing a large part in why he is still a consensus townread.

In particular, Adorable is trying to insinuate that Elements' "tunnel" on her is scummy, under the premise that if he were town, he should be considering the possibility that Chennisden is scum. That's faulty logic if Elements is town and he simply considers Chennisden to be obvtown -- in that case, there is nothing "scummy" about him taking a hard stance that Adorable is scum. It's scummy on Adorable's part because it's as if she is trying to argue that Elements is scum, while simultaneously trying to appeal to Elements along the lines of "Hey you know it's possible that Chennisden is scum, right?".

Adorable really needs to be taking a definitive stance here. If she is town, then from her POV the most likely scenario by far is that Elements is scum, unless she really believes that Chennisden has been that hardcore of a deepwolf for the entire game. She should be "tunneling" Elements, rather than going back-and-forth between Chennisden and Elements and bringing up things that she finds "scummy" about both of them. If she wants a chance at getting townread then she needs to take a definitive stance that Elements is scum, and not waiver on this stance and present a solid case as to
why
Elements is scum. That's her only hope of flipping the lynch onto Elements instead of herself. If the deadline were right now, I think that it's clear that Adorable would be the lynch, so she's got a lot of work ahead of her if she wants a shot at flipping the lynch onto Elements instead.

I think that there's a good chance that the scumteam of Oversoul/Elements will win the game. :wink:
"i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan " - xwing (Newbie 1889: Ice Cream)
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:58 pm

Post by volxen »

Poor Oversoul can't catch a break here. Lol. I think that he (finally) became obvtown when he pushed for SS to be the fifth spare, but Chennisden and Adorable both seem to be scumreading Oversoul, and at least one of them is town that really believes that. :wink:
"i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan " - xwing (Newbie 1889: Ice Cream)
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:02 pm

Post by volxen »

In post 133, Oversoul wrote:
In post 131, volxen wrote:Actually, I think it would be fun to be town with Oversoul in this setup. Now that I know what his town game looks like, I think that we could work well together as townies. :wink:
What were your and Adorable’s thoughts when I was actin’ like a fool on Day 1 and Day 2?
I'll try to answer this later today.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:01 am

Post by Oversoul »

Is Chennis just delaying the inevitable because he barely got to the play the game? :lol:
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:20 am

Post by popsofctown »

This actually probably would have gone faster if chennisden didn't revote, because S_S hates hammering.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:20 am

Post by Oversoul »

It’s hard to be the “reason” you lose
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