Mini Theme 2094 : Undertale Semi-Open: Game over!

[Elements]

Thanks for a great game everyone especially you Pops!

[Something_Smart]

I thought this setup would be awesome. For the most part it seemed awesome.

I agree, it played out well. It put to rest a lot of my fears that pacifist is a dominant strategy.

[popsofctown]

volxen disagreed with that assessment and honestly it may have directly impacted his win% since an Oversoul push looked very viable D2

[Elements]

I donot think my best friend elements is scum because if he was i would die

Sorry!
If it's any consolation this post made me feel bad.

[Elements]

What was Alphys going to do?

[popsofctown]

Two posts I made from the dead PT, I would like to highlight specifically

The reason for the anomaly with Toriel's ability, which had to do with impartiality and conscientious modding:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11182343

And a new fork of the setup I'm interested in which I will be posting in Open Setup discussion soon (perhaps to be ripped apart we'll see):
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11196796

I apologize to the scumteam for having to play around extra Toriel shots. The interpretation was based on balancing in favor of the scum faction in general, but in practice for the particular run of the setup harmed them.

[popsofctown]

Do you mean, what does the Alphys PR that S_S designed, that was excluded from my first run of the setup do

or do you mean, what was the flavor for the town win written like?

[Elements]

The first one

[volxen]

@Elements, I already gave my consent for releasing the scum PT in the dead thread. Are you good with having our scum PT released?

Also, great game everyone! And you did an excellent job, Elements!

And yes, Adorable, you were exactly right about you being spared to set you up as a mislynch, except it was me who set you up, not Oversoul. I elaborated a lot more on my thoughts on this game in the dead thread, but the gist of it is that I didn't think that I could get any of {SS, DEB, Oversoul} to heal-vote me, so the next best thing was for me to push for your spare to set you up as a mislynch after the core was formed. I knew that anyone who thought that I was scum would think that you were my partner.

[popsofctown]

She spares an extra player when the core is reached. I kind of don't get how it's helpful really. Maybe S_S can explain how it is.

[popsofctown]

Elements has a 100% scum winrate

[Elements]

Oh yea I'm fine with our PT to be public, didn't realise that was a thing we had to give permission for

[Something_Smart]

Muffet bossfight. It's not close.

Controversial opinion: ghost fight > spider dance.

[Something_Smart]

She spares an extra player when the core is reached. I kind of don't get how it's helpful really. Maybe S_S can explain how it is.

Yeah it's kinda a convoluted mess at this point but if the core is reached in Pacifist she gets to spare another player if she isn't killed that night.

It's helpful because it gives town another mislynch in Core.

[Something_Smart]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=79730

[volxen]

To @Something_Smart, regarding his reason for scumreading me:

like, perhaps the plan was adorable deepwolves and presumably volxen maybe flips and like that's an avenue to push me, or to get me off balance at least.

Is volxen's scumgame that bad? I seriously doubt a volxen/Adorable team would count on Adorable to deepwolf.

Wow so mean.

I didn't really put a lot of effort into getting townread. Hyperposting is usually required (regardless of alignment) to be a top-tier townread, and I don't usually hyperpost as either alignment. Even as town my playstyle doesn't usually lead to being mass townread. This is why a lot of people have a hard time reading me, especially people playing with me for the first time. On some level I can relate to Oversoul here, because I've had many instances where I've been incorrectly scumread as town because people simply didn't understand why I was doing what I was doing.

Like take SS for example. He was right about me being scum, but his reasoning for calling me scum was in reality NAI for me. The conclusion that I came to when I explained why Nips rather than Adorable was nightkilled is a conclusion that anyone closely following the game could easily come to. Everything that I said in that post was factually true: 1) Chemist had Adorable high up on his readslist, so she was objectively likely to be protected from scum's POV assuming that she is town, 2) Adorable was townread by a lot of people (Elements, SS, DDL, Nips, Chemist), and 3) Nips was townread by some players (DDL and Oversoul) but he was not as widely townread as Adorable, which made him an objectively safer nightkill compared to Adorable, especially when Chemist's readlist is taken into account (again, assuming that both of them are town). Thus, it was a reasonable conclusion to come to just using the publicly available information in the game thread. SS was insinuating that I couldn't have possibly come to that conclusion from an uninformed (i.e., town) perspective, which is just not true.

Also, Chennisden, who was town, basically came to the exact same conclusion that I came to (in the spare PT) with respect to why Nips, rather than Adorable, was nightkilled:

im not discounting a deepwolf but i dont think it's adorable so

scum should know that they can't kill adorable because town has repeatedly called her town

and its kinda obv that chemist would heal her. S_S if ur town can u stop looking into the kill so much

[Oversoul]

LOL.

[Oversoul]

Pops you dang troll

[volxen]

I thought this setup would be awesome. For the most part it seemed awesome.

I agree, it played out well. It put to rest a lot of my fears that pacifist is a dominant strategy.

I don't think that the Pacifist route is dominant or game-breaking, but I do think that it is pro-scum in some very subtle/psychological ways:

I was thinking "wow maybe xyzzy is right and games don't need deadlines" when all the days finished in the first third of deadline.

Then this lylo happened

It's very interesting how everyone was willing to end the days very quickly whenever we were going to spare someone, but when someone has to be lynched town decides to play up until the deadline. At least in this particular game I think that is also a way in which the Pacifist route benefited me and my partner: the game moved so fast because everyone more-or-less agreed on all of the consensus townreads (Chennisden, Elements, DDL, and Adorable). Most of the days ended very quickly with minimal information (compared to if each day were played out until the deadline), and that usually benefits scum rather than town. The game is only 31 pages long and we are at the very end of four-player mylo! A lot of games would be at 100+ pages by this stage of the game.

This is one of those very subtle reasons why I think the Pacifist route might be more pro-scum than people give it credit for. Psychologically, I think that on some level people are

much

more OK with speeding through a day if someone is going to be spared as opposed to if someone is going to be lynched. I suspect that if town had followed the Genocide route and lynched someone each day, we probably would have played much closer to the deadline on each day, and the game would be a lot longer than 31 pages long by this stage of the game. Between that, flips from lynched players, and the LOVE mechanic, town would have a

LOT

more information to go on right now. That's definitely some food for thought.

Mechanically speaking I don't think that the Pacifist route is scum-sided, but I think it benefits scum in very subtle/psychological ways that are not necessarily obvious at first. Sparing people vs lynching people really does completely change the dynamics of the game.

[popsofctown]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=80514 Mafia PT

[Oversoul]

The spare was as funny as I thought it was gonna be with Chennis screaming about me being scum. That was a fun read.

Also, I am glad to say I never voted against my wincon!

[popsofctown]

She spares an extra player when the core is reached. I kind of don't get how it's helpful really. Maybe S_S can explain how it is.

Yeah it's kinda a convoluted mess at this point but if the core is reached in Pacifist she gets to spare another player if she isn't killed that night.

It's helpful because it gives town another mislynch in Core.

Let's move any discussion on that to the Open Setup thread (which all players are welcome to come to).

[popsofctown]

Pops you dang troll

I thought I didn't mod that bad

[Oversoul]

Told Volxen to stop trolling me in the dead thread and then you go and troll me in the dead thread

I see u

[Oversoul]

The first two pages of the spare thread is gold