[SETUP] Undertale Semi-Open

[Something_Smart]

Let's try that for now. Here's where we're at currently.

Undertale Semi-Open

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

1 Town Character

(One randomly chosen out of six options that will be explained later)

Each day, town must vote to

Kill

one player (HURT: or VOTE: ) or

Spare

one player (HEAL: ). Votes are made to either Kill a specific player or Spare a specific player, and a player can only have one vote total across both options. Players may vote to spare themselves. (They may also vote to kill themselves, if you're into that sort of thing.) This is mandatory so if no majority is reached on either option by deadline, plurality wins out. The mafia can kill a player each night, prior to Night 4. (Obviously, this does not count as a capital-K Kill for any other mechanics.)

If a player is

Killed

, their role is revealed and they take no further part in the game.

If a player is

Spared

, their role is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game and added to a separate Spared PT. However, they may possibly rejoin the game, if the

Core

is reached. If a mafia member is spared, they may continue to talk in the mafia chat in addition to the Spared PT.

If both mafia members are Killed, town immediately wins. If both mafia members are Spared before the

Core

, mafia immediately wins. Otherwise, the

Core

is reached immediately after the end of Day 4. At this point, one of three things will happen:

Pacifist Route:

If no players were Killed, the game enters the Pacifist Ending. There is no Night 4 kill. If all four Spared players were town, town immediately wins. Otherwise, all players still in the game must vote to Spare a fifth player, after which all the non-Spared players are immediately removed from the game without flipping, and the Spared players are returned to the game. The mafia kill one (Spared) player, and then the game then continues with only the remaining Spared players alive.

Neutral Route:

If at least one player was Spared and at least one player was Killed, the game enters the Neutral Ending. All Spared players rejoin the game, and the number of Spared mafia members (but not their identities) is revealed. The mafia get one kill on Night 4, plus one more if a mafia member was Spared. If this causes mafia to gain parity they win immediately, otherwise, the game continues with the previous living players and the Spared players both alive.

Genocide Route:

If no players were Spared, the game enters the Genocide Ending. The player with the most LOVE-- that is, the player who was on the most wagons that led to a Kill-- is determined, and the alignment of this player is publicly revealed. (For tiebreaks, see the footnote*) There is no Night 4 kill. The game continues with no further change.

After the

Core

is reached, regardless of the ending, the game will continue as a normal game of mafia, with lynches and nightkills, and no-lynching allowed. Mafia win at parity, town win by eliminating all mafia. (In the Pacifist Route lynching can be reflavored as

Saving

because, you know, Pacifist.)

The possible Town Characters are:

• Toriel: As long as no player has been Killed, Toriel can protect another player from a kill each night before the
  Core
  is reached. If Toriel protects a player from a kill in this way, she can no longer use her ability.
  
• Alphys: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Pacifist Route and Alphys is still in the game or has been spared, she can choose another player still in the game to be Spared during the same phase as the mafia are choosing their kill, causing the Pacifist Ending to be played out with five players instead of four. If Alphys was Spared but is killed during this phase, her action fails. If the second mafia member is spared this way, or if a mafia member is spared upon reaching the
  Core
  but Alphys is in the game and not dead, it does not cause an immediate mafia win.
  
• Papyrus: On each even night, if at least one player has been Spared and at least one player has been Killed, Papyrus can target a player and learn their alignment.
  
• Asgore: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Neutral Route and Asgore is still in the game, he may jailkeep one player each night (starting Night 5).
  
• Undyne: On Night 2, if no player has been Spared, Undyne may choose any player, including herself, to be permanently bulletproof. They are not informed of this. This goes away if a player is ever Spared, or when the
  Core
  is reached.
  
• sans: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Genocide Route and Sans is still in the game, he can immediately kill one player, after the player with the most LOVE is determined but before their alignment is revealed.

*LOVE tiebreaks between players on the same number of wagons are: Lowest sum of their positions on the wagons -> On the earliest lynch wagon -> On the earlier position on the earliest Kill wagon they are on. This should resolve all LOVE ties.

[Jingle]

You could have 5p pacifist flip the remaining players as a little boost to make alphas not negative utility.

[popsofctown]

Undertale Semi-open

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

1 Town Character

Each day, town must vote to

Kill

one player (HURT: or VOTE: ) or

Spare

one player (HEAL: ). Votes are made to either Kill a specific player or Spare a specific player, and a player can only have one vote total across both options. Players may vote to spare themselves. (They may also vote to kill themselves.) This is mandatory so if no majority is reached on either option by deadline, plurality wins out. The mafia can kill a player each night. (This does not count as a capital-K Kill for any other mechanics.)

If a player is

Killed

, their role is revealed and they take no further part in the game.

If a player is

Spared

, their role is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game and added to a separate Spared PT. However, they may possibly rejoin the game, when the

Core

is reached. If a mafia member is spared, they may continue to talk in the mafia chat in addition to the Spared PT.

If both mafia members are Killed, town immediately wins. If both mafia members are Spared before the

Core

, mafia immediately wins. Otherwise, the

Core

is reached immediately after the end of Day 4. At this point, one of three things will happen:

Pacifist Route:

If no players were Killed, the game enters the Pacifist Ending. There is no Night 4 kill. If all four Spared players were town, town immediately wins. Otherwise, all players still in the game must vote to Spare a fifth player, after which all the non-Spared players are immediately removed from the game without flipping, and the Spared players are returned to the game. The mafia kill one (Spared) player, and then the game then continues with only the remaining Spared players alive.

Neutral Route:

If at least one player was Spared and at least one player was Killed, the game enters the Neutral Ending. All Spared players rejoin the game, and the number of Spared mafia members (but not their identities) is revealed. The mafia get one kill on Night 4, plus one more if a mafia member was Spared. The game continues with the previous living players and the Spared players both alive.

Genocide Route:

If no players were Spared, the game enters the Genocide Ending. The player with the most LOVE-- that is, the player who was on the most wagons that led to a Kill-- is determined, and the alignment of this player is publicly revealed. (For tiebreaks, see the footnote*) There is no Night 4 factional nightkill. The game continues with no further change.

After the

Core

is reached, regardless of the ending, the game will continue as a normal game of mafia, with lynches and nightkills, and no-lynching allowed. Mafia win at parity, town win by eliminating all mafia.

The possible Town Characters are:

• Toriel: As long as no player has been Killed, Toriel can protect another player from a kill each night before the
  Core
  is reached. If Toriel protects a player from a kill in this way, she can no longer use her ability.
  
• Asgore: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Neutral Route and Asgore is still in the game, he may jailkeep one player each night,
  starting Night 5
  . When a nightkill is prevented as a result of his night action, he is demoted to a doctor.
  
• Undyne: On Night 2, if no player has been Spared, Undyne may choose any player, including herself, to be permanently bulletproof. They are not informed of this. This goes away if a player is ever Spared, or when the
  Core
  is reached.

*LOVE tiebreaks between players on the same number of wagons are: Lowest sum of their positions on the wagons -> On the earliest lynch wagon -> On the earlier position on the earliest Kill wagon they are on. This should resolve all LOVE ties.

[Something_Smart]

Go for it! That's what the open setup discussion forum is for!

Asgore change makes sense, as does removing the more complicated characters for the pilot run of the setup.

Put me as a pre-in, too. I'm slightly overgamed, but I always try to find the time to play in open setups I've designed when someone else is running them

[popsofctown]

I think maybe I should use Sans instead of Undyne.
Undyne seems a little more powerful and I was trying to balance paths, but you were pointing out simplicity and digestibility and sans is so much more simple. And I don't think Sans is that bad at all. It's kind of cool that the vig appears in the path that has the most flips, so the vig has the best information.

[Something_Smart]

Your call, I guess. Sans is definitely more swingy than Undyne. If Sans lives to Core without the most LOVE, town will probably win.

[popsofctown]

After reading the Open Queue OP again I can't run it. Open Queue games are not allowed to have source material flavor lol. Therefore it has to be run as a theme game and I don't have a game of modding experience for theme games. I've modded once offsite but that doesn't count.

[popsofctown]

Oh wait, apparently there's a provision for offsite experience in the mini theme queue, maybe this can still happen.

The fact that a good setup would be moved out of the open queue is kind of exactly why there is a thread named "the open queue is dying please help" though; seems a stupid rule to me.

[Something_Smart]

I say ask T-Bone. If he says no, you can always just rewrite the rules to remove or change the flavor. I agree that rule seems kind of arbitrary.

[chennisden]

This is a good setup and the flavor makes this game easier not harder to understand

[chennisden]

This is a good setup and the flavor makes this game easier not harder to understand

[popsofctown]

Would you like to pre-in chennisden?

[chennisden]

If someone's gonna mod it, yeah.

[popsofctown]

It's in waitlist status in the minitheme queue, I am going to mod it. You are the second pre-in.

[popsofctown]

Necro

Although I'm interested in the smalltown version of the setup, I plan to queue it up simultaneously with the original setup as a player's choice. And I anticipate players selecting the simpler setup. So I need to work out what the optimal revisions are.

Revisions I'd want to make to the core setup:
1. Add a game system rule that the mafia can nightkill players in the main thread from the spare PT.
2. Remove the LOVE mechanic from genocide, at a minimum. There's a good case genocide is already pretty strong. It's a little different from 9-2 mountainous in that other options were available.
3. The way I'm counting it Sans and Undyne both generate an entire additional mislynch needed for the scum, correct me if I'm wrong. That might be a bit much. Sans at least, Undyne has to connect. Er, obviously I didn't have Sans the first time, I'm talking about the notion of introducing more of the PRs.
4. I still don't get Alphys.
5. Buff Pacifist by skipping the last nightkill, but telling the town they lose immediately if they do not select the mafia. This also puts LyLo on odds as a quality of life improvement.

[Oversoul]

My soooper secret scum strategy doesn’t work in a small town variant does it pops

[popsofctown]

No it does not.

[chennisden]

Neat setup

[volxen]

My soooper secret scum strategy doesn’t work in a small town variant does it pops

Damn now you are making me really want to know what this super duper scum strategy is.

[popsofctown]

Stupid not stupid idea: how about just informing the scum which power role is in the game? That allows the scum to try to push towards the route where the PR's power is ineffective. Which the town in turn can get a read on. Seems like more gameplay.

[popsofctown]

This setup as written had Sans losing during the fractional second before he fired his vig shot if Mafia had parity, because it's 4p at that point.

[popsofctown]

I think this is what I want for the three roles for the next run of the setup:

Toriel: No change besides systems change about the spare PT.
Papyrus: No change. I was apprehensive about the power of two clears but it's clear that going 1-1 the first two days is rare in practice, so this guy should be quite fine. It gives him an exciting rare case to lobby for.
Sans with a quality of life change + nerf + clearer interaction with the parity rule: On Night 3, if no player has been spared, Sans may poison a player. That player is unpoisoned if a player is spared or the mafia reach parity.

[popsofctown]

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

1 Town Character

Each day, town must vote to

Fight

one player (HURT: ) or

Spare

one player (HEAL: ). Players may vote to spare themselves. (They may also vote to Fight themselves.) The mafia have a standard factional nightkill.

If a player is selected for

Fight

, they are essentially lynched.

If a player is

Spared

, their role is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game (untargetable) and added to a separate Spared PT. They will rejoin the game when the

Core

is reached. If a mafia member is Spared, they may continue to talk in the mafia PT in addition to the Spared PT. Additionally, the mafia member can continue to perform kills.

Before and during all endings: if both mafia members die, town immediately wins. If both mafia members are

Spared

, mafia immediately wins.

The

Core

is reached immediately after the end of Day 4. At this point, one of three things will happen:

Pacifist Route:

If

Fight

was never used, the game enters the Pacifist Ending. If all four Spared players were town, town immediately wins. Otherwise, all players still in the game must vote to Spare a fifth player, after which all the non-Spared players are removed from the game without flipping, and the Spared players are returned to the game. Then all players in the game vote to decide who they think is mafia. If they vote correctly, they win, if they vote incorrectly, they immediately lose.

Neutral Route:

If at least one player was Spared and at least one player was Fought, the game enters the Neutral Ending. All Spared players rejoin the game, and the number of Spared mafia members (but not their identities) is revealed. The mafia get one kill on Night 4, plus one more if a mafia member was Spared. The game continues with the previous living players and the Spared players both alive. If at least one spared player is alive, the spared PT becomes public.

Genocide Route:

If no players were Spared, the game enters the Genocide Ending. There is no Night 4 factional nightkill. The game continues with no further change.

The possible Town Characters are:

• Toriel: If
  Fight
  has not been used, Toriel can protect one other player each night. Toriel loses this ability if she is successful or if she is spared.
  
• Papyrus: If
  Fight
  and
  Spare
  have each been used and Papyrus is unspared, Papyrus is an Even Night Cop.
  
• Sans: On Night 3, if no player has been Spared, Sans may poison a player. The victim is not informed. The victim is unpoisoned if a player is
  Spared
  or the mafia reach parity.

[Enter]

Is the player informed if they are poisoned?

[popsofctown]

Nah. Though the potential sparing might make it look like it's supposed to be about town agency, it's actually just a Quality of Life mechanic: since the mafia don't have a factional nightkill on night 4, the entire 48 hour night phase would be only for Sans, only for the 1/3rd chance he is in the game, and if people requested fast night, the entire reason Fast Night is being done is to protect the identity of a player who is going to actually immediately claim to better win LyLo/MyLo. He was previously a vig but I identified this as a desirable change.