Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

[emps]

sely is town here imo

[skitter30]

ok

i didn't read all of emps 1941, but i read the first 200 posts in his iso

emps a couple of questions before i share my findings:

1. is that your most recent scumgame?
2. is it common for you to do this 'be very teacher-y/explain-y to newbies' thing? have you ever done it as town?

[skitter30]

yeah ok it looks like you don't have any more recent games, is that correct?

[skitter30]

*more recent scumgames

[skitter30]

ok my overall vibes of 1941 are as follows:

emps was more lamist-y, including doing this 'let's explain everything to the newbies' thing; this had the effect of inflating post count while providing little content. basically seeming acting and helpful without doing that much.

i haven't really gotten that vibe from this game really, of posting to seem ~active~ and ~helpful~ and ~useful~

i'm going to check his interactions with his partner there now

[skitter30]

didn't really know how to interact with his scum partner, his progrssion on kani was all over the place, moving them from scumlean to townlean and back again as convenient, doesn't really interact with them or have a consistent progression

when the wagon happens he seems to just kinda pop on; there had been just enough scumleaning prior that he gave himself room to vote there if necessary

ok now let's check interactions with epic

[skitter30]

ehhh actually a pretty similar progression on epic imo

[skitter30]

he does a lot of the coaching thing too

[skitter30]

Skitt, I do want to jam with you about 1941. But also about me. Like I don’t see how you have me at null-town - you’ve Townes most of my play other than buddying you.

And that goes to the board too. I think today is shit or get off the pot on me. Like if you have doubts, I really think I should be the lynch today. I’m the biggest mislynch candidate left after two confirmed town (Fark and Menalque) scumread me. Sure, spammy found me town, but I don’t think I should be left hanging until tomorrow. Setup the best lylo possible - and that doesn’t include me unless you have made the call on my play.

i guess at the moment i feel kinda conflicted. overall i feel like the townie things are ~ stronger ~ on balance than the scummy things but i dont' feel confident enough to just townbin u rn

basically, townie things:

1. sortable on postcount still as far as i know; i still haven't seen scum!you manage to post like this although, tbf, i don't think you've been scum in a while

2. telling people that you need to be resolved today; the way you're doing it doesn't feel lamist to me

3. not sure scum!you can push someone that you know is town as aggressively as you pushed mena

there are however a few things that i'd like to talk some more about:

1. the buddying thing from earlier; it felt like u were trying to defend me which i find ~weird~ and it makes me kinda wary. scum behave weirdly around me and this reminds me of things i'm seen in the recent past

2. the whole argument with mena - you had been townreading him (had even taken him off the table when i was scumreading him earlier in the day!) - how exactly did you get to a scumread of him ~creeper hammer there? i'm rereading your iso - is it just that he wouldn't verbalize his scumread of me?

3. i still don't much like your fark push; i thought he was fairly obv!town at the time and i explained why, repeatedly, and i didn't much like how you kept pushing him for meh reasons that weren't scummy in context. or like acknowledging that you saw him doing townie things 660 but barreling on anyways

how do u think emps compares to 1941?

i'm kinda rereading ur iso as i'm writing this

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: creeper

Because I’m online and there is discussion of the claim to be had that is better had not at L-1. Scum could of course wuickhammer, and that’s a net positive for town, but I’d rather have not just your and my perspective.

Yea the setup was designed to prevent claimbreak strategies, which also limits fakeclaims.

Like scum never claims this in column B, because there is a 66% chance of being countered. Same in A+C because of A1!cop and A3! mason.

So actually with setup reflection Im inclined to credit this.

why'd you unvote after emp's tracker claim if you had seen what you beleived to be mason crumbs? ^^^

[skitter30]

post is kinda messy, sorry, i was kinda rambling and just doing a stream-of-conscious-y type thing as i reread ur iso

[teacher]

Mobile and tired so gonna address your questions and then hit the comments in the morning.

1. I take vLa seriously. I used to do it more myself on the weekends with the kids, and I treasure our long days and respect for real life. It wasn’t directed to you as “you”, it was directed to what I saw as weird shade throwing. I believe it was both a cultural (site culture) and linguistic difference I. The end, but I think that defense is what spewed Fark town at least to you so not sure I see scum motivation. You’re a player I would try to reverse pocket rather than outright pocket, just cause I saw how you reacted to it before too.

2. Here I’m leaking a bit into your comments — I don’t think I pushed mena that hard? Like I think that was spam and farks solve before it was mine, and I went along? I scummed Menalque most of the game - I didn’t like his calling Fark town on p2; the weirdness around spam in 180-220. I was even on the wagon til 540.

3. 540 is also my answer on Fark. I just don’t see how anyone joins their biggest scumread on a wagon targeting what they had previously called their second strongest town. And farks reasons were weak. For me, that move was pure survivalism - providing momentum to the biggest thing going at the time. Joining the repeated PR spec and it seemed like a scum setting up a fakeclaim (I’m a PR is the only plausible excuse for that level of pr spec counter to advice). I still think I read it right as survivalism, I just mixed scum and pr.

4. On 1941, I asked you because some of emps reminded me of that in real time but I wanted to reread it with your analysis. Now that I have that, I will do that. I think it will help on both of you.

5. On creep, because claims =/ crumb. I would expect most people would know tracker is a shite claim in this setup - it’s countered 66%, making it a BAD option. I haven’t fully thought through what fake claim is best, but that’s definitely not it, making the claim more credible. So too does claiming without intent.

[teacher]

if you are a tracker, cop, or mason, CC this.

Like this - in the old setup, B1 was cop-tracker, so a tracker fakeclaim was one of the better options in column C. But now it’s not. And I’m not sure I catch that as quickly without emps calling it out.

[teacher]

FWIW I don’t think there is a good universal fakeclaim in this setup at all.

• tracker - established countered 66%
  
• cop - countered 66% in all columns, pluses forced to create clears.
  
• doc - Countered >66%
  
• neighbor - proven false next day
  
• jk -countered 66% in all
  
• mason - lulz

So I don’t think I can use the claim as a reason to think the partner isn’t experienced. Still think that, but this reason wasn’t good.

[*]traxke

[emps]

FWIW I don’t think there is a good universal fakeclaim in this setup at all.

• tracker - established countered 66%
  
• cop - countered 66% in all columns, pluses forced to create clears.
  
• doc - Countered >66%
  
• neighbor - proven false next day
  
• jk -countered 66% in all
  
• mason - lulz

So I don’t think I can use the claim as a reason to think the partner isn’t experienced. Still think that, but this reason wasn’t good.

[*]traxke

tracker : countered 77% of the time
cop - countered 100% of the time
doc - countered 89% of the time
fn - haha no
jk - countered 89% of the time
mason - haha no

[emps]

ok

i didn't read all of emps 1941, but i read the first 200 posts in his iso

emps a couple of questions before i share my findings:

1. is that your most recent scumgame?
2. is it common for you to do this 'be very teacher-y/explain-y to newbies' thing? have you ever done it as town?

1. Yes, its also my only one.
2. tbh ever since that game ive kinda been paranoid about acting teacher-like towards newbs because i might get scumread for it. ive never done it to that extent as town tho

[emps]

i made a post in mafia discussion about the fakeclaims in this setup, and the fakeclaims w/o being cced are ridiculous. you cant fakeclaim in 5/9, unless you cohnt fn as a legit fakeclaim, then its 4/9.

also, if you want to fakeclaim without being cced, you need to correctly guess the setup. tracker and fn(i dont really count fn though) that are safe fakeclaims in multiple situations. however, they are in diff columns (tracker fakeclaims are B1 and C2 if i recall correctly? fn fakeclaims are in A2 and C2.)

[emps]

ebwop, meant to say that tracker and fn are the only claims that arent cced in more than one setup

[emps]

so basically its even worse than u though

[emps]

so basically its even worse than u thought

ebwop

[emps]

he does a lot of the coaching thing too

like what do you mean by this

is this referring to the fact that i coached kani? i kinda just gave them advice, does that count as coaching? i thought coaching was more like "hey copy paste this into thread and get townread lol : [thing here]"

[teacher]

Sushi Martyr has been prodded

I think this is due a replacement

.

[Selynee]

ehhh actually a pretty similar progression on epic imo

Thing is if emps was going to encourage votes on his partner so early and he'd know the PR claim (assuming they discussed at least this) would more probably be CC'ed, I think he'd at least want to be on him when that happens...voting for Mena there doesn't make much sense. Unless EC really butchered the plan (as in not paying attention to where we were and how many votes there were).

[Nexus]

Searching for a replacement for Sushi Martyr.

[emps]

tbh this post is kinda a prodge.

i dont think we really have that much more to really discuss until the sushi replacement comes in.

[skitter30]

sorry, this is a prodge-with-content, i had something urgent come up that took up most of my free time today, i will be around tomorrow more after work
and i'm kinda tired so if I don't make sense rn lmk and i'll try to reword/re-explain tomorrow

You’re a player I would try to reverse pocket rather than outright pocket, just cause I saw how you reacted to it before too.

this is actually a fair point

2. Here I’m leaking a bit into your comments — I don’t think I pushed mena that hard? Like I think that was spam and farks solve before it was mine, and I went along? I scummed Menalque most of the game - I didn’t like his calling Fark town on p2; the weirdness around spam in 180-220. I was even on the wagon til 540.

um you had like a 10 page emotional/aggressive 1v1 with him at the end of day1 that directly influenced the fact that he got mislynched the next day
so i'm not entirely sure it's accurate to say that you didn't push mena that hard
or that you just went along?

you were townreading him for ~quite a long while~ day1, to the point that i said that i wanted to wagon him and you told me that he was off the table and that i needed to compromise elsewhere
so i don't entirely agree with this characterization of your push on him, and dont' like that you're negating your accountability/responsibility/culpubility for it by sayign that 'you don't think you pushed him that hard' and that you just 'went along' with it

3. 540 is also my answer on Fark. I just don’t see how anyone joins their biggest scumread on a wagon targeting what they had previously called their second strongest town. And farks reasons were weak. For me, that move was pure survivalism - providing momentum to the biggest thing going at the time. Joining the repeated PR spec and it seemed like a scum setting up a fakeclaim (I’m a PR is the only plausible excuse for that level of pr spec counter to advice). I still think I read it right as survivalism, I just mixed scum and pr.

i have ~thoughts~ here but i'm kinda getting too tired to articulate them so this is a placeholder till tomorrow

4. On 1941, I asked you because some of emps reminded me of that in real time but I wanted to reread it with your analysis. Now that I have that, I will do that. I think it will help on both of you.

ok lmk what you think

5. On creep, because claims =/ crumb. I would expect most people would know tracker is a shite claim in this setup - it’s countered 66%, making it a BAD option. I haven’t fully thought through what fake claim is best, but that’s definitely not it, making the claim more credible. So too does claiming without intent.

ok so what were you thinking about the sushi/nmsa mason crumb thing when you saw the tracker claim?


@emps/sel i'm acknowledging that i see your posts but i'm kinda exhausted so i'll get to them tomorrow