Mini Normal 2098 - Game Over! (Mafia Won)


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:39 am

Post by Jackal711 »

VOTE COUNT 1.4


Mohab500 (1) - Billy Pilgrim
Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (2) - Garmr, Emperor FlippyNips
Garmr (1) - Mohab500
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -
NorwegianboyEE (1) - Kraeg
Kraeg (1) - NorwegianboyEE
Billy Pilgrim (1) - Skellen

Not Voting: profii, Luca Blight

ACTIVITY NOTES:

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Friday, September 13th at 10:00 am PDT which is in
(expired on 2019-09-13 10:00:00)
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:43 am

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

UNVOTE: Mohab

No need to be on a vanity wagon. Felt like turning up the pressure on the Kraeg wagon may help sort, but the Garmr/Luca 1v1 produced some interesting content. I will have some thoughts on this later.

When I skimmed it, Luca felt town. Wanna go back through the isos though.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:42 pm

Post by Skellen »

UNVOTE: Billy

I feel like I have a better grip at reading him with having more insight on his reads and feel a bit better about him, although I feel a bit iffy about him not wanting to be on a "vanity wagon" on page 7 while Mohab hasn't even reacted to his questions yet. Guess that will remain as my most frustrating slot in my notes.

Regarding Garmr/Luca I need to look more closely at it when it's not late in the night, but my first impression after reading through it is that imo Garmr hit a nail with saying that Luca's reasons for scumreading him didn't felt natural. Although I am mostly thinking here of him feeling negative about Garmr's mention of PR stuff and the slayers gambit thing. To me it felt he judged Garmr for that as scum because it doesn't look natural from town yet he didn't really pointed out why that is a scum motivated play. It's imo just bad play, maybe anti-town might be the better term, as both also admitted to (more or less). I mean if it's scum!Garmr I don't see why he brings up arguments that would potentially put the Kraeg push to a halt instead of just keeping it to himself and joining pushing Kraeg. Can you clarify this, Luca? Second paragraph in # does seem to be the only thing that comes close to it, but it doesn't really feel comprehensible.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:03 pm

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

@Garmr - you say you read the flow of a game. At 68 how scum read did you think Kreag was gonna be?
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:17 pm

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 152, Skellen wrote:UNVOTE: Billy

I feel like I have a better grip at reading him with having more insight on his reads and feel a bit better about him, although I feel a bit iffy about him not wanting to be on a "vanity wagon" on page 7 while Mohab hasn't even reacted to his questions yet. Guess that will remain as my most frustrating slot in my notes.

Regarding Garmr/Luca I need to look more closely at it when it's not late in the night, but my first impression after reading through it is that imo Garmr hit a nail with saying that Luca's reasons for scumreading him didn't felt natural. Although I am mostly thinking here of him feeling negative about Garmr's mention of PR stuff and the slayers gambit thing. To me it felt he judged Garmr for that as scum because it doesn't look natural from town yet he didn't really pointed out why that is a scum motivated play. It's imo just bad play, maybe anti-town might be the better term, as both also admitted to (more or less). I mean if it's scum!Garmr I don't see why he brings up arguments that would potentially put the Kraeg push to a halt instead of just keeping it to himself and joining pushing Kraeg. Can you clarify this, Luca? Second paragraph in # does seem to be the only thing that comes close to it, but it doesn't really feel comprehensible.
Oh don't worry, I still want those questions answered by Mohab, but clearly my vote wasn't doing anything there and I unvoted because I wanted to deep dive the Garmr/Luca interaction.

And if you're frustrated by my slot, you're not alone. I made 2 out of 4 LYLOs in my first 4 games. And it's probably because scum recognizes that I do weird things that can get scum read.

As for the Garmr/Luca interaction, I feel weird. I think Luca's initial reason for voting Garmr was weak, but I feel like the way the interaction played out made Luca look good and Garmr look bad. I also played a game (unsure of Luca's alignment in that game so not AI) where he did a 1v1 then backed off similarly on D1. Maybe he rolled scum in both games, but it also could be a playstyle thing.

I also realized that most of why I was townreading Garmr was his defense of a surface level scummy Kraeg. Now I think this is the only read of his that didn't feel surface level, and when I re-read it I realized he didn't commit to a read. In 98, he said he would set it to the side and come back to it. Then he did the 1 on 1 with Luca. I originally couldn't see scum motivation in coming out the gate defending Kraeg for surface level scummy play. But now I can think of 2 reasons, (I will give them later Skellen), but for now, I would like to hold them back a bit. I agree with Luca that most of Garmr's reads were surface level as I said, outside of Kraeg. I also think that Garmr got mad defensive when he was getting pressured by Luca and that was remarkably different from how he had reacted to Norwegian's early vote.

VOTE: Garmr
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:38 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 154, Billy Pilgrim wrote:
In post 152, Skellen wrote:UNVOTE: Billy

I feel like I have a better grip at reading him with having more insight on his reads and feel a bit better about him, although I feel a bit iffy about him not wanting to be on a "vanity wagon" on page 7 while Mohab hasn't even reacted to his questions yet. Guess that will remain as my most frustrating slot in my notes.

Regarding Garmr/Luca I need to look more closely at it when it's not late in the night, but my first impression after reading through it is that imo Garmr hit a nail with saying that Luca's reasons for scumreading him didn't felt natural. Although I am mostly thinking here of him feeling negative about Garmr's mention of PR stuff and the slayers gambit thing. To me it felt he judged Garmr for that as scum because it doesn't look natural from town yet he didn't really pointed out why that is a scum motivated play. It's imo just bad play, maybe anti-town might be the better term, as both also admitted to (more or less). I mean if it's scum!Garmr I don't see why he brings up arguments that would potentially put the Kraeg push to a halt instead of just keeping it to himself and joining pushing Kraeg. Can you clarify this, Luca? Second paragraph in # does seem to be the only thing that comes close to it, but it doesn't really feel comprehensible.
Oh don't worry, I still want those questions answered by Mohab, but clearly my vote wasn't doing anything there and I unvoted because I wanted to deep dive the Garmr/Luca interaction.

And if you're frustrated by my slot, you're not alone. I made 2 out of 4 LYLOs in my first 4 games. And it's probably because scum recognizes that I do weird things that can get scum read.

As for the Garmr/Luca interaction, I feel weird. I think Luca's initial reason for voting Garmr was weak, but I feel like the way the interaction played out made Luca look good and Garmr look bad. I also played a game (unsure of Luca's alignment in that game so not AI) where he did a 1v1 then backed off similarly on D1. Maybe he rolled scum in both games, but it also could be a playstyle thing.

I also realized that most of why I was townreading Garmr was his defense of a surface level scummy Kraeg. Now I think this is the only read of his that didn't feel surface level, and when I re-read it I realized he didn't commit to a read. In 98, he said he would set it to the side and come back to it. Then he did the 1 on 1 with Luca. I originally couldn't see scum motivation in coming out the gate defending Kraeg for surface level scummy play. But now I can think of 2 reasons, (I will give them later Skellen), but for now, I would like to hold them back a bit. I agree with Luca that most of Garmr's reads were surface level as I said, outside of Kraeg. I also think that Garmr got mad defensive when he was getting pressured by Luca and that was remarkably different from how he had reacted to Norwegian's early vote.

VOTE: Garmr
Can you describe what thoughts are surface level and why they are just so I know you aren't parroting Luca?
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:32 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

Billy, you can’t talk about ongoing games. This is a really important thing to remember.

Traveling home atm so will respond to stuff in an hour or two
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:46 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 156, Luca Blight wrote:Billy, you can’t talk about ongoing games. This is a really important thing to remember.

Traveling home atm so will respond to stuff in an hour or two
Can I ask a favour and don't answer the question for billy I want to sort him because I already figured out your scum.
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:51 pm

Post by Unstuck in Time »

In post 156, Luca Blight wrote:Billy, you can’t talk about ongoing games. This is a really important thing to remember.

Traveling home atm so will respond to stuff in an hour or two
I thought i kept this vague enough that I didn't violate the rule. And I specifically said it wasn't ai so it wouldn't spoil. Shit, if I messed this up I'm sorry.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:52 pm

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 158, Unstuck in Time wrote:
In post 156, Luca Blight wrote:Billy, you can’t talk about ongoing games. This is a really important thing to remember.

Traveling home atm so will respond to stuff in an hour or two
I thought i kept this vague enough that I didn't violate the rule. And I specifically said it wasn't ai so it wouldn't spoil. Shit, if I messed this up I'm sorry.
Whoops that was from my Hydra. Wow I'm really messing up.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:58 pm

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

@Garmr - it's probably fair to say I parroted Luca there. I think your Kraeg comment showed you working through it. The Skellen read was surface mostly, but it was null so I guess that's not gonna be in depth. The Luca read wasn't surface, I think the logic was off, but it wasn't surface. So that's a fair defense from you, you brought up 4 reads (Kraeg, Skellen, Emperor, and Luca.). 2 were in depth and 2 were a bit more surface but the surface ones were nulls.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:26 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 160, Billy Pilgrim wrote:@Garmr - it's probably fair to say I parroted Luca there. I think your Kraeg comment showed you working through it. The Skellen read was surface mostly, but it was null so I guess that's not gonna be in depth. The Luca read wasn't surface, I think the logic was off, but it wasn't surface. So that's a fair defense from you, you brought up 4 reads (Kraeg, Skellen, Emperor, and Luca.). 2 were in depth and 2 were a bit more surface but the surface ones were nulls.
Ok so you do understand the ones surface ones were nulls there's a reason they are nulls.

So here's a question

Do you think it's fair to paint someone as only having surface level reads when only 2 of the reads that were
nulls
especially when they have at least 2 indepth reads around the start of the day 1 when were out of rvs

if yes why do you find it ok?

If no would you find the person painting them with that brush as scummy (for that point alone) and why would you echo it despite thinking this way?
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:01 pm

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

I messed up here, clearly, and it's why I admitted it in 160. I thought I had more reasons when I posted, but I read it back and I clearly didn't. I agree that there's a reason your surface reads would be nulls and you accurately grouped them.

I agree that that's not fair to paint someone as only having surface level reads in such a case. And would I find the person painting them in that light as scummy? I don't know. As for why I echoed it, I think it's probably because I was persuaded by him in 139 because I think you missed the point he was trying to make and he mentioned again that you had surface level reads. I think I got primed to see them that way. I definitely have this problem with people I town-read, and I need to fight it better, because I'm easily pocketable.

I think you misinterpreted his point but I don't think that makes you scum. I am interested in why you went after me and Luca so hard and left Mohab alone. I'm also now interested in Flippy, because he sheeped onto Luca pretty easily.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:03 pm

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

I'm townreading Garmr, but I'm not sure that means that Luca's scum.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:47 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 162, Billy Pilgrim wrote:I messed up here, clearly, and it's why I admitted it in 160. I thought I had more reasons when I posted, but I read it back and I clearly didn't. I agree that there's a reason your surface reads would be nulls and you accurately grouped them.

I agree that that's not fair to paint someone as only having surface level reads in such a case. And would I find the person painting them in that light as scummy? I don't know. As for why I echoed it, I think it's probably because I was persuaded by him in 139 because I think you missed the point he was trying to make and he mentioned again that you had surface level reads. I think I got primed to see them that way. I definitely have this problem with people I town-read, and I need to fight it better, because I'm easily pocketable.

I think you misinterpreted his point but I don't think that makes you scum. I am interested in why you went after me and Luca so hard and left Mohab alone. I'm also now interested in Flippy, because he sheeped onto Luca pretty easily.
Oh I didn't leave Mohab behind just you post more informative with your posts so I thought you could provide more content to read. I deal with low info players differently after being stung by them multiple times. It's best to look at actions over a period and when they act.

I will be honest I predicted you to double down and I didn't expect you to stop and think about why your post and why you sheeped Luca. Which is why I changed my tone a bit because I wanted to see if you really reflected on your read or or not. You have. If that wasn't enough to town read you. I don't think scum would admit to getting caught up in the moment like you did either as they would want to justify there read instead of trying to figure out why someone is town.
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:59 pm

Post by Garmr »

@Billy I was going to lead into this in a more natural way because I predicted you to do something different, but you surprised me in a good way so I'll ask your thoughts about this to try and
In post 94, Luca Blight wrote:Catching-up....(striked the stuff that has been answered/is no longer relevant)

-
I'm struggling to follow why this is scummy?


-
Do you still find Profii scummy, or did his response cause you to reconsider?


-
Do you consider these to be AI questions? If you're 'not a fan' of Norwegianboy, why not place a vote on him yourself here?


Skellen's opening seems decent, and her thoughts in mirror my own.

- This seems fair enough. Early town-lean on Norwegianboy.

- Decent thought-process from Billy, early town-lean here as well.

- I can relate to this. Posting a naked RVS vote as scum is actually quite a ballsy thing to do.

, - This is just BS, shading people based on V/LA's right at the start of the game and during a weekend. Billy has even been contributing despite his V/LA, and I had just announced I would catch up Tomorrow, which I am fulfilling now.

, , - This feels Townie.
I found this post hollow and some what text book response. Do you see the same thing as me or is there substance I missed somewhere?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:24 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

The difference is I wasn't
trying
to give anything in-depth at that stage - I'm not going to pretend there is enough data a few pages in to massively deliberate over something. That was the point I was making about you - you gave some superficial reads on Flippy, Profii and myself (I realise we disagree on this one, but I think you're reasoning for voting me was super obvious - do you not think I was aware I would come under some pressure for a sudden flip of my Skellen view? And I don't see why I should feel conflicted this early on with such little data), and then a more in-depth look at Kraeg, which seemed a bit forced in order to compensate for the other stuff.

Again, I'm not claiming my reasons for voting Garmr were flawless, but he seems to be suggesting his reasons for suspecting me are, such is his confidence in his scumread. I'm still not sure if he's just really stubborn Town or scum pushing an agenda, which is why I've taken a step back to get a better picture of the game as a whole. I'm a pretty big PoE player and I so far haven't seen enough to get an adequate read on a number of players.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:25 pm

Post by Garmr »

@Everyone not Luca


When I brought this up Luca's first response was to scum read me and push that I'm scum which seemed unnatural as his reasons were stretches.

-He painted me as having surface level reads. Which we can agree is completely unfair when you get into it.

-Luca's points on the slayer gambit/pr stuff are null, yet he consistently paints it as scummy. He also seems to understand this as he mentioned it being null then tried to shift it back it making me scummy. Skellen made a post about this and is quite logical +1 girl scout point for Skellen.

He honestly has no real case as to why I am scum when you think about it. His just painted a image of me to bash and he did a good job at that.

Also did Luca really have a problem with my posts revolving around kreag? Wouldn't that jump out at him first when he made a catch up if it was such a big deal. I don't believe he would of missed the kreag thing I would consider it one of this games first big events. He actually made a passing mention saying what the hell but didn't add his own input on kreag if he thought it came from town or scum. This tells me that he wasn't sorting slots and was just in it for appearances.



There's only scum read point I think is a good point through wrong and it's by profii . He thinks my read on him comes form a place of knowing and that me reading the flow comes from that. Where it really comes from Is my own views bias and predictions mixed together I have mentioned flow before and I try reading it a lot so I became adapt at it. It's not really something provable but I can see where profii comes from.
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:37 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

- You're repeatedly missing the point. I never said all your reads are surface level, and having surface level reads isn't even a crime in itself early doors. My point was that it seemed you were compensating for that in the Kraeg 'deliberation', which seemed forced for the reasons I've already stated.

- I've not consistently painted anything as scummy, I made my point, which I stand by, and then have answered wave after wave of attacks from yourself about it.

- I've never said I have a real case, it was a starting point to a scumread. Just like my Skellen vote wasn't massively meaningful - it was a starting point, very much subject to later behavior.

- The first time I saw it I didn't even know what you were talking about with regards to the Slayer's gambit. Everything that pinged me came about after my original catch-up post.

I'm not getting into this 1v1 with you. If you are Town then take a deep breath, calm down and drop this so others can't just coast off the back of it. If you're scum then continue digging yourself a hole, because it won't end well for you.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:20 pm

Post by NorwegianboyEE »

Mini normal setups usually have 2 mafia right?
Also i still feel like we should be pushing Kraeg more.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:40 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 168, Luca Blight wrote:- You're repeatedly missing the point. I never said all your reads are surface level, and having surface level reads isn't even a crime in itself early doors. My point was that it seemed you were compensating for that in the Kraeg 'deliberation', which seemed forced for the reasons I've already stated.

- I've not consistently painted anything as scummy, I made my point, which I stand by, and then have answered wave after wave of attacks from yourself about it.

-
I've never said I have a real case,
it was a starting point to a scumread. Just like my Skellen vote wasn't massively meaningful - it was a starting point, very much subject to later behavior.

- The first time I saw it I didn't even know what you were talking about with regards to the Slayer's gambit. Everything that pinged me came about after my original catch-up post.

I'm not getting into this 1v1 with you. If you are Town then take a deep breath, calm down and drop this so others can't just coast off the back of it. If you're scum then continue digging yourself a hole, because it won't end well for you.
-the reason you get waves is because your answer doesn't satisfy me.

-You don't have a real case yet you voted me. Can you see how I view that as a scum reaction to me pushing you.

-So you didn't know what I was talking about and only went to look deeper in it when you wanted to vote me and not when you found it?

If you are Town then take a deep breath, calm down and drop this so others can't just coast off the back of it. If you're scum then continue digging yourself a hole, because it won't end well for you.
I like jokes lol. Me pushing you is forcing people to take have opinions and take sides. The more events like kreag, you vs I ect the better.

Also what's the worst that can happen? I get mislynched whoa big deal lol :lol: . Scum will have to react to it and there's guaranteed to be one scum on my wagon since my actions are pretty decisive and I generate a lot of information purpose.. If you get lynched, I lynched scum and that's a win for me.

Our interactions helped me get a read on billy when he responded. Besides if I pace it right I can constantly gnaw at you and other events can happen that I get reads of as well off people reactions.

The way you are trying to pull away from the spot light seems odd. It's only been 2 pages. 5-6 pages I'd understand but 2?
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:46 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

Since when do I need a 'real case' to vote someone early in the game?

I'm pulling away from it because I've had many situations like this in the past and rarely does something good come from repeatedly attacking each other with wall posts.

I can see your reaction from both perspectives. I used to play in a similar way as Town where I'd 1v1 someone for the hell of it, mainly out of ego rather than actually believing the other person was definitely scum (I don't believe your confidence in your SR on me, regardless of your alignment). I could also see you being angry scum getting frustrated at feeling 'unfairly' scumread and getting ready for war. I've been in both of these positions myself.

As I said, you can continue doing whatever you want, but I'm taking a step back because I want to get a read on everyone, not just you
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 171, Luca Blight wrote:Since when do I need a 'real case' to vote someone early in the game?

I'm pulling away from it because I've had many situations like this in the past and rarely does something good come from repeatedly attacking each other with wall posts.

I can see your reaction from both perspectives. I used to play in a similar way as Town where I'd 1v1 someone for the hell of it, mainly out of ego rather than actually believing the other person was definitely scum (I don't believe your confidence in your SR on me, regardless of your alignment). I could also see you being angry scum getting frustrated at feeling 'unfairly' scumread and getting ready for war. I've been in both of these positions myself.

As I said, you can continue doing whatever you want,
but I'm taking a step back because I want to get a read on everyone,
not just you
Why can't you get a read on people while being in the lime light? It's only 2 pages through it's not like we been going at it for ages so I don't get why your so eager to back off?
Since when do I need a 'real case' to vote someone early in the game?
So in response to me voting you you provided a vote not backed by a real case but continue to defend the reasoning despite you acknowledging it's not good.

So if all your points before your vote on me were empty and your case wasn't "real" What have you been doing this game!
While being 100% completely right. I'm just that good. -Garmr (Wasn't Right)
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NorwegianboyEE
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NorwegianboyEE
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:10 pm

Post by NorwegianboyEE »

This current argument between Garmr and Luca proves:
Both town: Might be.
1 town 1 scum: Might be.
Both scum: Very unlikely
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Luca Blight
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:10 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

1. It's not about being or not being in the limelight, I just think this conversation continuing for too long is harmful for the general gameplay, especially as we're essentially going in circles. As I said, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

2. I've acknowledged I don't have firm evidence for you being scum, but I maintain the points I made were valid.

3. That's a loaded, misrepping question...Extra scum points to you, congratulations.
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