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Post Post #2175 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:15 pm

Post by Klick »

If I responded to everything I disagreed with in a Mafia game, I would be here 24/7. I've been playing most of this game solely on my phone at my in-laws'. Even the level of posting I've achieved up to this point has been a struggle.

I wasn't moved by Luca's reasoning there, hence my read not changing after seeing it. I didn't feel the need to make that explicit.

As such, I can't respond to that whole post right now, but I have particular thoughts about the Luca section:
And I think those two things would make sense if scum!Luca, especially with Klick as his partner. He could TL Icon immediately for towncred, since he could guess Town doesn't have much power (due to Mafia's own roles), especially if they agreed to initiate a massclaim. And buying into your explanation ties in to the tinfoil theory.
Why would I push for a massclaim in the first place here? Icon could have just been lynched. Me, Luca, Tchill, A50. The votes were there at one point. There are conflicting goals going on there. Your tinfoil theory isn't as strong a goal as just lynching Icon, who
also
had me in his scum pool at the time. And LUV has also had me in his scumpool in most of his active posts - lynching him seems like a much simpler option.
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Post Post #2176 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:50 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

I still find Gobble’s claim weird and the more I try to wrap my head around it, the more I want to lynch it. I’m not sure if he’s scum for only being able to use his role on Night 3 because red herrings and wine exist. I just believe that the NRG wouldn’t gate a bodyguard when a mailman is the only other power town has. Feels unnecessary which is why I asked if he was elite.

I’m not sure if it was you Datisi but if you’re just going to call my content word salad and disregard, how are you ever going to actually sort me?
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Post Post #2177 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:44 pm

Post by Datisi »

@Klick:
Yeah, that's why I figured I csn't take it as an AI thing, or at least not as greatly AI.

And true, he could've been lynched. But if the (possibly sole) PR got lynched, there would've been discussion about that in LyLo. And LUV could be a potential great mislynch tomorrow.
---

@LUV:
Since it looked like it was building up to be my lynch, I wasn't paying too much mind on being unable to read you atm.

However (since the moment has passed), the answer is I can't sort you like this. Tho after seeing you coming back and promising to catch up, I figured no point in pushing you then (since we're waiting for Turkey to catch up too).

Ye, I agree the claim is weird. But I figured we could wait on sorting that at least until Gobble catches up?

Btw, if you're caught up, can we get a readslist/lynchpool?
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
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Post Post #2178 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:19 am

Post by gobbledygook »

I will be able to post something today. Didn't realize so many of you took weekend VLAs, so that makes sense why you all were flipping out
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Post Post #2179 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:28 am

Post by Chemist1422 »

In post 2168, Datisi wrote:
@mod, I'll be VLA on Sunday
In post 2169, Luca Blight wrote:
V/LA until Monday
In post 2170, Iconeum wrote:
VLA weekend
All noted.
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Post Post #2180 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:02 am

Post by Datisi »

In post 2168, Datisi wrote:
@mod, I'll be VLA on Sunday
@mod, trip postponed, disregard
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
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Post Post #2181 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:17 am

Post by Chemist1422 »

In post 2180, Datisi wrote:
In post 2168, Datisi wrote:
@mod, I'll be VLA on Sunday
@mod, trip postponed, disregard
Got it
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Post Post #2182 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:13 pm

Post by gobbledygook »

Ok. So I have read a bit to ground myself, but I still have the majority of the game to read. I am on page like 20 and some random assortment of recent pages. I know, I know, you all are like "What the duck, Mister Turkey!? You spent all that time telling us to slow our roll and you only read
twenty
pages!?
This is the worst trade of all time!
"

My answer to that is that is half right. I have spent the majority of my time focusing on creating my (patent pending) activity flow charts. It is a very simple premise and it has been pretty reliable in the two games I have used it. Iconeum can attest to its success in our recent game together.

Basically, I make a chart that gives me a graphical representation of a player's activity in the game. I use it to see if a player's activity has trended towards lurking. I also use it to see if their activity corresponds to some other stimulus like posting more if they are currently being pressured. Why? I believe that universally, players do not like playing as mafia. I think the psychological reasoning stems from having the "puzzle" of the game solved for you already. And stress. Lots and lots of stress. Humans do not like stress. Why do you think procrastination is such an issue? Playing as mafia is stressful. :lol: Either way, I think people
in general
dislike playing mafia which in turn causes people to be less active in games.

I know that some players like to play mafia, or prefer to play mafia, and those players will defeat this tool. I acknowledge that. I have started a little folder of players who are widely known to like playing mafia, or players that I have run into that I know like to play mafia, so that I know to adjust the weight I gave to this tool when examining their play. None of the players I currently have on my list are in this game.

I know that some players are not active players. My response to that is this. Those players may not have a positive trendline, but they will not have a hugely negative trendline either.

I also know that sometimes people get busy and just cannot be as active as they once were in the game. That is a given that there will be some false positives. But, that's just the rule of the game. Moreover, those types of activity inhibitors are usually announced by the players in the game. I find scum are less likely to publicly announce those types of inhibitors, for whatever reason.

Now, I know this tool isn't the end all, be all. But it has thus far pointed me in the right direction. It makes me a more efficient scumhunter by focusing my energy on players more likely to be scum. That's where I think its usefulness lies.



Now onto the analysis. I examined the activity flow of every slot that is currently alive, including replacements. I did everyone for full transparency. So you can better understand, I recorded the number of posts a player made from the start of the game (or their replacement into the game) until September 3 when I joined. I do not go beyond the date I joined because that may skew the data if players knew my schtick.The only slots with negative trendlines are {Billy/LUV, Datisi, Almost50}. Since I know I am town and the setup tells us I am town and from what I gathered Almost apparently ragequit, I am going to say that Almost's trendline is more due to emotions rather than his alignment. More on Billy/LUV and Datisi in a moment.

The players with the most positive trendlines are Tchill13 and Klick. This makes sense to me. I feel like out of the players recently talking, Tchill13 and Klick are probably the towniest. I have some reservations about Klick that I will get into later once I more thoroughly read, but right now, I am going to safely consider them more than likely town.

Iconeum and Luca Blight barely have positive trendlines. Since Iconeum is a claimed PR and my role's existence would be almost completely redundant without another PR, Iconeum is town and I will not go into further wasting effort trying to examine him. As I said earlier, I think he is town for setup reasons and he can have the win if he is scum (CFJ can have my scorn in that event, as well).

Back to Billy/LUV and Datisi. As I said, these two slots have negative trendlines. I examined why the trendline was negative and both players have a particular pattern. They posted a lot early in their time playing and have not (recently) matched that volume of posting.

- LUV posted a lot after he replaced in (26 posts in one day), but hasn't posted more than 8 times a single day after that. He has the most 0 post days of anyone in the game as well. With the majority of his 0-days coming immediately after his large post day. Caveat: The "0 posts day" metric is a useful metric as well because that can help show a low post count player is not very active despite having a neutral or positive activity flow by virtue of posting
slightly
more later in the game.

- Billy did not follow this pattern, but he did have a negative trendline. When two players in the same slot follow the same activity flow, that is generally an indication that slot is at the very least Not Fun. What would make a VT slot Not Fun? It being mafia (see reasons above why scum is Not Fun).

- Datisi's posted a lot during a 4 day period (Aug 20, 21, 22, 23) wherein she posted 26, 33, 21, and 34 posts respectively. Since that time, the highest post count that Datisi has reached was 12 posts on September 3. I looked into why Datisi would be more active specifically during that 4 day weekend because that is slightly different than LUV's replacement into the game and subsequent catch-up barrage that artificially inflated his post count. During that 4-day stretch, Datisi was being highly pressured. She was the leading wagon for a good portion of it and her wagon maintained presence for almost the entirety of that time period. Once that wagon dissipated, so did Datisi's activity. That is scummy to me because it looks like a scum player doing
just
enough to tread water so to speak.

For these reasons, I believe this should be our kill order {LUV, Datisi, Luca Blight, Klick, Tchill13} with the scum team more than likely being LUV/Datisi.

VOTE: LUV
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Post Post #2183 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:16 pm

Post by gobbledygook »

My reservations about Klick are that he is taking very strong stances on players that others want to remove from the game. That makes me think he could possibly be saving those players as fodder for later, but that feeling is almost entirely gut. I haven't read enough to back up that assertion. I will be posting LUV (Billy) and Datisi's activity flows for you to see what I am talking about. Upon request I can post other activity flows since I made one for everyone, but it takes a bit of time to create in imgur, so I will only do the others by request.
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Post Post #2184 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:20 pm

Post by gobbledygook »

Spoiler: Activity Flow
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LUV
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Billy
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Post Post #2185 (ISO) » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:02 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

I really thought you were gonna provide a bunch of garbage but I'm quite impressed. I like the whole thing. I'd much rather be inclined to think everyone reacts to "posting trends" one way opposed to everyone reacting to "solo gambits" a certain way depending on their alignment.

You backup your reasoning, explain where it comes from and it makes sense to me.

You land on klick/datisi which falls in my (one scum in klick/datisi one scum in luv/a50 hunch)

Im happy with it. I'd rather lynch datisi first I believe.

I'm you still have catching up to do though. Either way I'm impressed with the logic.
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Post Post #2186 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:27 am

Post by Klick »

You start with the premise that people think being town is more fun than being scum, but there's not sufficient evidence that that's true for any decent majority of players (or for the players in this game).

Billy's progression makes a good amount of sense considering his activity trailed off when Alisae came in and rocketed the activity up. Ignoring the tail end, his progression is positive.
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Post Post #2187 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:40 am

Post by gobbledygook »

In post 2186, Klick wrote:You start with the premise that people think being town is more fun than being scum, but there's not sufficient evidence that that's true for any decent majority of players (or for the players in this game).

Billy's progression makes a good amount of sense considering his activity trailed off when Alisae came in and rocketed the activity up. Ignoring the tail end, his progression is positive.
That is true, for the most part. But you can’t really quantify “fun” just like you can’t quantify “happiness”. That’s why I look at activity as a side effect/symptom of a person having fun.

Without going into rule breaking territory, Billy seemed to replace/flake out of this game for reasons other than being able to keep up. It is true that if you ignore the end of Billy’s stay here in the game he would have a positive trendline. But I’m not sure I understand why we are doing that? What does Alisae have to do with affecting Billy’s activity?

Tchill, I didn’t mean to come off as arrogant or a knowitall yesterday. Truthfully, I would have been happy with any kill as long as it wasn’t me or Iconeum. Obviously I have strong preferences for specific players in the scumpool, but if you guys had wagoned and killed someone while I was busy, as long as they were in the scum pool, I wouldn’t have cried necessarily.

Why do you want Datisi first before LUV?
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Post Post #2188 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:43 am

Post by gobbledygook »

Klick, I take it you like to play as scum? Or at least have fun playing as scum?
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Post Post #2189 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:25 am

Post by Klick »

In post 2187, gobbledygook wrote:That is true, for the most part. But you can’t really quantify “fun” just like you can’t quantify “happiness”. That’s why I look at activity as a side effect/symptom of a person having fun.
Okay, but what conclusions can this draw about alignment if there's not a correlation between alignment and fun?

Billy had a clear and defined reason for the decline in his activity leading up to his replace-out. Him losing interest in the game was a result of the game amping up in activity. That discredit your theory that he had lower activity because he was scum and scum don't enjoy the game as much.

And I haven't rolled scum in ages, probably at least two years. I used to like playing as scum more than town, but I don't have a sample to know if I still feel that way.
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Post Post #2190 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:43 am

Post by gobbledygook »

I was replying to your assertion that there’s no sufficient evidence for the correlation. Just because there isn’t sufficient evidence for it, doesn’t invalidate the correlation. You have to start somewhere.

Also, let’s just say I don’t believe Billy’s replace out was totally genuine in light of other public actions he’s made around the site. That’s all I’m gonna say on that front. The very first scum I caught used the same reasoning you’re using to say that I was wrong.
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Post Post #2191 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:00 am

Post by Klick »

I mean, I could say there's a correlation between whether you have an animal in your avatar and whether you're scum. There's no evidence, but you can't say it's invalid.

I almost replaced out myself when I saw ten pages of spam overnight. I trust that that's a valid reaction to the situation that was presented.
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Post Post #2192 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:25 am

Post by gobbledygook »

I see your hyperbole, but you saying there’s no correlation to activity is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Why do things like Lynch All Lurkers exist? Why do people generally look down upon lurking or coasting?
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Post Post #2193 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:38 am

Post by Klick »

To discourage lurking, which stalls games. Not because there's a particularly strong correlation between lurking and scum.

Lynch All Lurkers isn't a good policy.
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Post Post #2194 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:44 am

Post by gobbledygook »

Eh. I think it’s a great policy. It’s better than Lynch All Liars at least. I also think there’s more to it than just because it stalls games. Begs the question, why do people lurk? Because they aren’t enjoying the game. Why aren’t they enjoying the game? Because they are possibly scum.

Who is your top scumread right now Klick?
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Post Post #2195 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:53 am

Post by Klick »

In post 2194, gobbledygook wrote:Why aren’t they enjoying the game? Because they are possibly scum.
This isn't a justifiable conclusion.
In fact, a common reason people cite for not enjoying playing is because they don't like playing VT. And that would draw the
opposite
conclusion to the one you present.

Through process of elimination, I'd have to say Datisi is my top scumread.
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Post Post #2196 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:10 am

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 2191, Klick wrote:I mean, I could say there's a correlation between whether you have an animal in your avatar and whether you're scum. There's no evidence, but you can't say it's invalid.

I almost replaced out myself when I saw ten pages of spam overnight. I trust that that's a valid reaction to the situation that was presented.
Yeah. Not surprised that there's a response like this.

Funny how ppl are so obsessed with solo gambits here (not necessarily you klick) and will accept results of them but then you have something like this that is always immediately looked down upon.
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Post Post #2197 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:11 am

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 2193, Klick wrote:To discourage lurking, which stalls games. Not because there's a particularly strong correlation between lurking and scum.

Lynch All Lurkers isn't a good policy.
No policy is good if you're not willing to do it all the time. Which this site can't do.

If we'd lynch all lurkers and all liars town would... Oh Idk. Win like they should. Nobody wants to stick with that though.
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Post Post #2198 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:13 am

Post by Tchill13 »

I want datisi lynched first because the majority of players are calling her scum and the content she's provided leads me to believe she could actually be scum.
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Post Post #2199 (ISO) » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:44 am

Post by Klick »

I'll probably put my vote back there when gobble has finished catching up.
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