Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[Elbirn]

can I have it

Mmmm no you're gonna bully me

[jjh927]

Did you at least read my TL case, Elbirn?

[Elbirn]

No but since you're the first person to actually ask for something I'll give it the old college try

No guarantees my eyes won't glaze over trying

[Elbirn]

EP v TL feels really tvt to me

Man are you off to a bad start

[mastina]

Mastina why do you think jjh is town? I know you said something about this being his towngame yesterda, what has he done today that is still town?

Everything?

The question isn't what has he done which is town; the question is what he's done which HASN'T been town.

Okay, let’s go with “diverting the pressure on EP away onto a slot that could be scum but is also very much mislynch bait meaning town is going to make a big fuss over it or if scum think they can get away with it possibly just be rapid lynched”

Why is that towny?

Well for a start. Every slot this game is mislynch bait; the very argument that you're using against jjh could be applied to those who're pushing the ep lynch;
They are diverting the pressure off of X, onto a slot that could be scum but is also very much mislynch bait.

In other words, I don't put any stock in that angle.

[jjh927]

Huh I forgot about that whole TL-EP thing

[jjh927]

I'd still rather you read the case and comment on it

[Elbirn]

Huh I forgot about that whole TL-EP thing

I'd still rather you read the case and comment on it

I sure will, but does the EP vs. TL saga change the way you feel about TL?

[jjh927]

Honestly I've had a lot of conflicting thoughts and pushing people like this is the best way for me to place people

[Elbirn]

Honestly I've had a lot of conflicting thoughts and pushing people like this is the best way for me to place people

I admire your candor.

VOTE: Elements

[jjh927]

Hopefully other people won't pay any attention to it and will react to the case organically

[Elbirn]

My initial impression after reading your case is that uhm...

Well for one I'm not sure how you can read into his hesitancy about voting korina the way that you do? At the time you thought he was wishywashy about voting a partner. With korina's green flip, that whole thought process is invalidated. So why does scum-TL hesitate to vote korina? Towncred for not being on the wagon. Why does scum-TL eventually join the wagon anyway? If his intent was to milk towncred the way you say then he.....doesn't. And yet he did.

Like, better explanation, you say that his decision had to have changed because the calculus on whether or not it's worth it has changed. This is false because the value of being on/off the wagon never changed, it was always "push a mislynch or don't".

Thanks for coming to my TED talk, I'll read a little more when I can

[eth0s]

I won't bully you can I have a wish now

[eth0s]

Elements why are you ignoring my questions sir

[Elbirn]

I won't bully you can I have a wish now

I'm sorry but the wish was granted to JJ


Just kidding I'm not a bad person what's up

[Elbirn]

Okay ethos I see how it is

[eth0s]

my wish is that you read the stuff that you said you didn't read

[Elbirn]

my wish is that you read the stuff that you said you didn't read

Oh I'm working on it. But I am also at work. Job work. Is crunch time.

I think I want mastina put in the fucking ground now, more to come

[Elements]

Elements why are you ignoring my questions sir

Which questions? where, what, when, who?

[TemporalLich]

My vote has more business being here than on Espresso

VOTE: Elbirn

[Menalque]

EP/jjh scum

I was just rereading the jjh ISO and it's also bad, but in a different way to EP being bad.

EP is bad because his is empty. I've already covered this.

jjh is bad in a more subtle way.

eth0s heavy post

for instance, he says that he's waiting for eth0s' heavy post (459), but after that comes does he engage with it? no, he continues hard pushing kori!scum rather than talking about whether kori is plausible town or not (464465). He takes the time to engage with the post, but only

after

day has ended and we're in twilight, in 537. aka, he's trying to distance himself from the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post. but if you're town, why not engage the arguments first while events are still in motion? trying to look like you're involved in the process of sorting after the possibility of doing so has collapsed is scummy, and it's searching for town points while not actually being towny.

interactions with me and twilight "kori is still scum" behaviour

then there's also his weird interactions with me, and his attitude of kori!scum is still a thing despite kori literally having been lynched and saying he's town i.e. erasure of the incentive to lie. I think this is scum doubling down so that they can soak some of the heat for the mislynch they pushed by saying "no, look, I was SO CONVINCED he was scum, look how I still thought so in twilight even after he was dead and saying he was town!!!!" whereas I think the genuinely towny thing to do there is acknowledge you could have been wrong, and engage with the person to try and get reads/takes on the game that could help town for the next day, even if those reads might be that you're scum for making the push.

Look at my recent newbie (1949) where I self-hammered as town on D2. I was convinced teacher was scum, and he was the same on me. But there was still engagement after the hammer despite irritation where we worked together on the off chance that we were both town to try and provide town with an optimal state for the next day given the self-hammer mistake.

attempts to manipulate framing

I think there's also misreps in jjh's twilight posts, or if not exactly misreps, at least particular and odd framing: let's look at 556. "I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now". This is shading (1) presenting anyone who was doubtful as to kori!scum as someone behaving delusionally. Note, this is not the same as saying, "surely you admit kori has good odds of being scum?" which I would have totally agreed with prior to self-hammer and conf!town status. But it's making it look like the reads of anyone who was doubtful are less valuable, and it presents jjh as having followed the only logical course of action by pushing kori hard. When actually, another very reasonable course of action was to just approach the slot with a lot of scepticism and talk it out among the rest of the town during the rest of D1. The speed and severity of the push reads to me as someone who wanted to get Korina done and end day quickly, but that wasn't necessary from a town pov. kori, after changing his role claim, was always going to be a viable D1 lynch. Why doesn't town spend the rest of the day talking out whether or not there are solutions (a la eth0s) or if the scummy outweighs the potential positive utility?

plus there's 558 which is another attempt to devalue Kori's reads despite being the only person we knew would be conf!town at the time. this is important for scum!jjh because he was Kori's strongest SR on death. I don't think town cares so much about devaluing conf!town's reads. I think town chooses to keep scum hunting and to town case themself if needed should the conf!town's reads be followed. the pre-emptive shading and dismissal of the reads (plus the fact that I know one read is good, not that I expect you to be persuaded by this) is scum!motivated, not town!motivated.

progression in his interaction with me, SoaS most likely to be a NK from jjh

I also think jjh's approach to my slot was weird there. He starts off very hostile "I thought you were meant to be good" but rapidly changes to a conciliatory tone "engaging with you is the only thing concerning me that he might be town". And just now, I found something pretty damning. He says in 570 that, in regard to my point about having healthy scepticism regarding kori slot and going back and forth, that he did go back on it at one point (569) and that "SoaS can confirm that I did so, but I did so in the PT" (570). But SoaS never does this. The game moves on, and he doesn't comment on the point. Now, as has been mentioned by me and by jjh, SoaS is a weird kill. But he's a perfectly logical kill for scum!jjh because that lets him entirely control the narrative of what happened in the PT with SoaS. He can take his voice for himself. And if he didn't in fact do that in the PT, then it stops SoaS from ever pointing that out in the future if his mention of this gets spotted (like I just did).

this also fits with scum!jjh and scum!EP. killing SoaS lets jjh provide additional cover for EP by claiming that deb was TRing him when he died. there's no indication I see of that in the main thread, so all we have to go on is jjh's word that it happened in the PT. I don't really see a good reason to believe that.

inconsistent approach to TL from day-to-day

then look at fuckin 585 "My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw". if this is town!jjh, surely he has a lot more scepticism about TL today? scepticism that was also lacking in his engagement with kori. but he doesn't, he hops onto someone he had a SR on that was "mostly" conditional on something that wasn't true, and he does that instead of engaging with me on EP!scum but instead to draw attention away from EP!scum.

The key takeaway is that, yes, jjh has been doing stuff. But that 'stuff' has been wildly inconsistent with a town mindset and approach to the game.

[Menalque]

not sure who the partner is but

probably

one of elements/TL/mastina, I could see it being any of them fairly easily

oh, and

VOTE: jjh

[jjh927]

I'll respond to that after other people respond to it, but it is seen

[jjh927]

Although I really shouldn't let the PT shit stand

[jjh927]

So yeah, on the PT shit:

1. You're accusing me of lying about stuff in the PT BEFORE deb actually died. This is actually moronic and you should be able to understand that
2.This should probably indicate to you that me and deb were posting in the pt and on good terms:

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

3: I can reveal what deb's information is if it would help because mastina can confirm it but it won't help at all