Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Celestial Coordinates]

Like, I was pretty clear that I wanted town consensus scumreads (that i would obviously contribute to, probably disproportionately, but) and you knee jerk were like NAH NOT LETTING YOU LEASH ME RC.
Every time the argument about how protecting a player that isn't someone scum wants to nightkill comes up you keeping being like 'NAH BUT TOWN ARE GONNA DIE ANYWAY.'

and then we have to waste a lynch on you

You

have

to?

We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

You were the one saying dumb shit about how we need to let scum control the direction of the baton pass for 'information'

[Cephrir]

if we're gonna play this setup the jaded way it's basically just mountainous triple day except that i can't have the catharsis of voting for YukzYuk right now.

[Something_Smart]

I think that OH has a fairly high probability of being scum trying to push town to do basically anything besides the obvious correct thing.

I don't think most people intentionally push bad strategies as scum. Is Enter (I assume that post was Enter) an exception?

[Gay Dance Gone Wrong]

how do those of you who aren't unreasonable about this issue not get frustrated every time you see it happening?

i just want to play mafia and not Meta Connect Four.

Games like this, which contains major mechanic, will never be a game of pure scumhunting.
Which is why I suggested that we take 24 hours of purely talking about game mechanics so we can move on to the fun part.

[Oh]

We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.

Ok. Fair enough.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand how different people's proposals are different.

Everyone will voice their opinion about who is scum and who is town. Leashing people is a good way to keep them from actually having to make solid decisions and this is one game mode where your actions matter a lot and can say a lot about you.

I have no problem voting to lynch two players at the end of the day, but who the baton gets passed to is in the hands of the baton holder regardless of what everyone agrees on. And to continue this line of thought, regardless of what we agree on, we will still disagree on whether or not we should lynch individual instances of players breaking what the players agree on.

I made a mistake making a suggestion, I should have stopped before I wrote that line. At this point I believe that regardless of what we discuss and agree on, the execution doesn't matter.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Not just any town, we will die tonight like nearly every game RC isn’t protected. You guys should know this. Do I really need to list examples?

Only way we possibly won’t is of our reads are really off but RC also gets targeted when he’s wrong, like in Arch where RC tribute hydra allowed us to die.

I don't need examples, I'm telling you that if you're town, you're town. Which is just like everyone else here. One of the town players will die night 1. If we protect you, then there is WIFOM about whether or not you're scum tomorrow, and then we have to waste a lynch on you when it could be used on someone better.

This was an awkward place to ask this question.

Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?

I don't know who you even is.

I am trying to talk to Enter.

Answer the question instead of commenting on awkward placement.

You're aggressive this game.

Why are you pushing for reads from me right now?

Are you not interested in the conversation at hand?

I think you don't fully understand my suggestion, then?

I'm not trying to take advantage of MS players as "meta-geniuses," I'm trying to apply greater responsibility to players. This isn't a ploy to make town find town, this is outing scum by making them take responsibility for their actions in greater regard than usual.

It's exactly the same as playing the setup naively (i.e. pass to your townread) except that you've assigned everyone a meta padawan for some reason

Explain, please, how the way you want to play the game is executively different? Give me examples of how your idea of how the game goes down differs from my idea of how the game goes down/

Ank, aren’t you forgetting, I’m in this game too? Iow, you spec argument about WIFOM wrt RC scum would make that pretty much a non-issue, so that’s not great reasoning.

[Cephrir]

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

I won't agree to this and I'm probably not alone. :hitoshrug:

[Dannflor]

You're aggressive this game.

Why are you pushing for reads from me right now?

Are you not interested in the conversation at hand?

Nice observation.

Because I scum read you currently and that's a read I want to examine more closely.

I am not. I've stated my thoughts. I err on the side of town discussing and deciding the baton order together before night.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

I won't agree to this and I'm probably not alone. :hitoshrug:

It would be extremely easy for scum to arrange the baton pass order to both make sure they don't lose their members and make sure it doesn't clearly point to them if they want to.
We're losing an absolutely insane amount of town win equity if we do anything besides have two set lynch targets and kill anyone who passes to them.

[Celestial Coordinates]

That's even worse?

Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

I can’t speak for RC but you do tend to hard push info lynches. Are you disputing this?

[Cephrir]

why sign up for this game if your goal is to destroy its central conceit ugh

[YukzYuk]

if we're gonna play this setup the jaded way it's basically just mountainous triple day except that i can't have the catharsis of voting for YukzYuk right now.

I mean you could start pushing me instead of whining about how people want to play the game differently than you? That way you can have the good feelings when everyone agrees with you to baton kill me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

why sign up for this game if your goal is to destroy its central conceit ugh

Town gets all the advantages of the central mechanic if we do it this way

I don't particularly want to give scum advantages and freedom to control the game for the sake of 'playing to its central concept'?

[Shoshin]

I'd like to say that first person complaining about the pace is scum, but I lack data to say so.

I've had this thought before as well, and I think it depends if they prefer town or scum.

[Oh]

Like, I was pretty clear that I wanted town consensus scumreads (that i would obviously contribute to, probably disproportionately, but) and you knee jerk were like NAH NOT LETTING YOU LEASH ME RC.
Every time the argument about how protecting a player that isn't someone scum wants to nightkill comes up you keeping being like 'NAH BUT TOWN ARE GONNA DIE ANYWAY.'

That wasn't me.

Also, that doesn't coincide with the statement you made earlier. You can't just use big words aggressively and expect everyone to trust you're saying something smarter than you understand.

and then we have to waste a lynch on you

You

have

to?

Yes.

We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

You were the one saying dumb shit about how we need to let scum control the direction of the baton pass for 'information'

Here's a link to the game you're posting in: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81030

You seem to be unaware of it.

(To be less snarky -- No, I'm not saying any of that. I haven't even mentioned "information" or said that word once. What are you talking about?)

[Cephrir]

i'm just gonna do something else for a while and come back in the hopes i'll be able to be less negative.

[Dannflor]

That wasn't me.

Start signing your posts if you don't want this to be a problem.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I did not even think our reads were that good at the end of D1 in magical girls upick, plus RC saying like 10 million times we were going to be the N1 NK, and yet, we did get shot, except due to our super unkillable ability... we didnt die.

Sakura is obvtown here. Her thought process, reads etc are entirely different than in BoR. You agree with this, don’t you @Wisdom?

[Oh]

Ank, aren’t you forgetting, I’m in this game too?

For the third time, this isn't Ank. Ank doesn't type like this. I expect you to know the difference by now, considering you're talking to us like you know us?

Not sure what you're getting at here:

Iow, you spec argument about WIFOM wrt RC scum would make that pretty much a non-issue, so that’s not great reasoning.

Because it makes no sense whatsoever. Like the words are ones that I don't understand in that sequence.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.

i don't think it would be especially hard to make it happen.
in fact i think in most lobbies it would be easy, just that this game has a lot of people who have big ideas

Yes.

So, what? It's against code to ever let my slot go to endgame is what you're saying and this entire argument is coded you refusing to let me influence the game at all because I might be scum?

[Gay Dance Gone Wrong]

Dann do you townread me buddy

[Wisdom]

I'm not the best at explaining feelings. Let's just say that I have an intuition for Wisdom's alignment from reading lots of his games.

youve only played one game with me and i was scum, thats prolly it

[Dannflor]

I have a light town read on you currently but I'm not interested in voting for you.

[Oh]

Nice observation.

Because I scum read you currently and that's a read I want to examine more closely.

I am not. I've stated my thoughts. I err on the side of town discussing and deciding the baton order together before night.

Ok, good.

I like your process here. I'll get to reads in a little bit, I do have a few but they're about as solid as jello right now. I'll get back to this after I clear up some other stuff in the thread, but I definitely want to talk to you more.

[Something_Smart]

I'd like to say that first person complaining about the pace is scum, but I lack data to say so.

I've had this thought before as well, and I think it depends if they prefer town or scum.

I'd be surprised if it was anything but player dependent.