Newbie 1959 | Stuff I Found Online Xv | Over

[AaronFrost]

Personally I find spartman to be scummy in that situation. He uses a defensive reply to pressure (think And why does that make me scum?),

You find it scummy that I am trying to understand what someone finds scummy about my play, you're off to a good start.

No. I was saying that I personally find when people respond to pressure by asking someone to elaborate on the reason they are being pressured is generally scummy to me.

This is especially given the context with Salad lynching you in early game phases - although yes, questioning Salad's viewpoints in early game phases has a place, it should not be a justification for a counterlynch unless you have other reasoning. Which is why I found it scummy.

Again, I never really pressured him about the self-vote thing or accused him of scum for it, I just mentioned that it's an anti-town move.

The main pressure on Spartan was the fact that he put teacher at L-1 and the wording of 38 implied that he was okay with hammering someone on page 2. Any comments on his response to that?

[GeorgeBailey]

Welcome aboard Gimm1ck, you already have more posts than me and Yoda, which is a great sign (for you, bad for me).

So onto this:

Saying now that Teacher reacted calmly and townie, albeit a tad passively to his wagon; considering it nai on him for the present being.

Reading back over early Spartman wagon here, so sorry for not knowing how to use quotes (you can see how badly I messed it up a few posts up) anyways;
Personally I find spartman to be scummy in that situation. He uses a defensive reply to pressure (think And why does that make me scum?),

"Additionally please tell me what is anti-town about self voting during the RVS on the first page? What does it tell you about my alignment if anything?" (post 44)

and calls out saladman for not contributing to in-game scum hunting.

"Saladmans reaction felt very much like scum trying to hope on a wagon, as an SE I expect more from you than your response in #46, I would have hoped more experienced players would understand the full motive behind that game advancing content, no comments on any of the other people who are on Teachers wagon?"

This earns scum points for Spartan as he - as stated before - calls out Salad for not investing in game related content while defensively replying to pressure.
Saladman's Lynch on Spartan is nai for me as of now. Going over rest of game soon

I don't think acting defensively to an Anti-Town accusation seems Scum. He self-voted for reactions and got them. This sounds a lot like Dong's argument, which I don't like either.

The way I see Dong currently is actually a townlean. I do not believe their read on teacher is fabricated to be false; Dong's reluctance to back down on a read they find to be correct to them is townie in my book. Scum Dong wouldnt want to keep a read that is obviously drawing them negative attention, especially if they believe they are furthering pro town activity at this point.

But his reason is based heavily on meta, which makes it very flawed. A lot of the board agrees that anyone's reaction to being vote L-1 would be panic. Wouldn't scum want to out a very active player anyways?


Beside that:
I'm guessing my vote got transferred to G1mmick, so i'll unvote now, since a lot of the my previous reasons are void now.

UNVOTE: Gimm1ck

[GeorgeBailey]

Why the fuck is everyone calling him Spartman?

The Infection

....

It's spreading!

[Yodavader]

So, I leave and come back and there's 3 new pages???

Anyways, looking at people's activities:

You all have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used in my next Mini Normal as flavour.

That being said VOTE: Teacher, you can’t teach newbies.

This is RVS, so again as with George, no harm, no foul.

Where in that did I say I wanted to hammer someone page 2
Additionally please tell me what is anti-town about self voting during the RVS on the first page? What does it tell you about my alignment if anything?

1. Nowhere, but you opened up an opportunity for a lolhammer or your partner to hammer.
2. In my last game, one player self voted in RVS and everyone jumped on that vote.

So yeah, it’s a really bad and scummy idea to L-1 this early, especially in a 9p game. VOTE: Spartan117

Ok, so he voted for Spartan because of putting teacher at L-1. I can understand that, as I have stated before about my thoughts on IF we had to lynch at that point in the game, I would have thrown my vote on Spartan too.

2. If someone votes themselves and others jump on the wagon and vote him, what does that say about their alignment? What was the alignment of this player in your last game?

Nothing, but it’s anti-town to start the wagon. The player was VT, self voted and did nothing but made him look scummy. The next day he self hammered. UNVOTE:

Don’t wanna risk a mislynch, much like Mini 2099.

I voted him to avoid the lolhammer of teacher and now I unvoted for some bullshit reason...

Ok, so what was the BS reason?

I agree, we need to lynch anyone today, rn I honestly don’t care if it’s a mislynch today, info is better none. So let’s spice things up.
Using random.org I will vote one of the top 2 wagons.
Heads = Spartan
Tails = Dong
random.org says

Tails

VOTE: Dong

Nowhere in his previous posts has he said anything about his thoughts on Dong, yet Dong is one of his choices. Sure, this was after the teacher/Dong back and forth, but still you should have some ideas as to why you think Dong is scum.

I used randomness because of my indecisiveness. May I ask why you’re keeping your vote on Merfin?

Actually, VOTE: Spartan for now, I’ll wait for dong to come back from v/la.

Again, I don't see any real thought as to why. It looks like he is just trying to jump on whatever wagon is there.

Plus, I know that my post count is the lowest but if you look at the actual content, I think Salad has had the least to add. I only mention this because people keep talking about my post count. I honestly think that Merfin added more to the game than Salad. At least Merfin had a post explaining why they voted for someone and had examples.

VOTE: Salad

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.08

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Spartan117

(3): Gimm1ck, Chibiie, Saladman27

Saladman27

(2): Spartan117, Yodavader

Dongempire

(2): teacher, AaronFrost

teacher

(1): Dongempire

Not Voting

(1): GeorgeBailey

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-10-09 09:00:00).

Mod notes:

Dongempire is V/LA until 6 October.[/area]

[Chibiie]

Anyway, I don't see you playing scum at all, on my TL you were around mid-way, kind of, however, scumreading Salad, which from my point of

view looks very netural (I cannot get a proper read out of his posts and actions),

looks unjust to me.

Salad play in his last post, in my opinion, is a scumbait and now he's waiting on people to react on his action in order to scumread someone.

[...]

Town:
[*]Salad
[*]AaronFrost
[*]Spartan (I'm leaving my vote on him, but it means nothing)
[*]Teacher

Neutral:
[*]Dongempire (I'm still studying him and his posts)
[*]Merfin (Haven't seen him joining and move the game in a direction yet)
[*]Yoda (Following along, taking part into arguments, however, not very big impacts on the game progression)

Scum:

GeorgeBailey

Just thought I'd highlight this point where Chibiie says they dont think george is scum at all then put him at the bottom of the list as scum...

I would like to point out you only partially highlighted my post, as I mentioned why I've put him at the bottom of my list.

IMO, Salad is the most neutral read I have, therefore I gave him towncred. His plays are literally just... I haven't seen him getting too involved and that either because he doesn't want much attention on him (assuming he is PR, anyone can be at this point, we still haven't pushed someone to claim), or he's taking part of this game out of respect (assuming he's just a Vanilla Town with no other power, but to help us solve the puzzle).

I could've also assumed he's scum, however, I trust that a scum will select a target to try and push for a lynch. A specific target, someone that can be read as a big influence for Town... ANYWAY, moving on, I'm getting too much into my head and will end up with another huge post, not all information I'm running through is important, I'm still having trouble organizing the game in my head, too many thoughts on these interactions.

ANYWAY, reasons for why I've put George at the bottom of my list are the followings:

[*]Pushes - He voted Merfin's slot (Gimm1ck) which was ok and stuff, game was progressing, questions were being asked and so on, however, once Dong became a wagon, his mood changed... He started to attract attention off of Dong... There's 2 explanations in my opinion: 1. They're scumbuddies, simple as that; 2. They're Masons, interesting, but he should be more townie if so...
[*]Calling my play scummy, but not scummy... Is it newbtown that plays a no lynch-D1? Is it newbscum that has such a play? I mean, whenever people want to point fingers, I want to see solid reasoning behind.

So far, I've put George at the bottom of my list because of his uncertainty...
He's fidgeting between pushes, he's not really jumping on a wagon... I don't do either, but I've explained my reason earlier and I stand by my word

I understand the D1 lynch meta now that I've studied the forum and would like to join in, however, that would turn me into a "scum" for not backing-up my play.

[Saladman27]

So, I leave and come back and there's 3 new pages???

Anyways, looking at people's activities:

You all have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used in my next Mini Normal as flavour.

That being said VOTE: Teacher, you can’t teach newbies.

This is RVS, so again as with George, no harm, no foul.

Where in that did I say I wanted to hammer someone page 2
Additionally please tell me what is anti-town about self voting during the RVS on the first page? What does it tell you about my alignment if anything?

1. Nowhere, but you opened up an opportunity for a lolhammer or your partner to hammer.
2. In my last game, one player self voted in RVS and everyone jumped on that vote.

So yeah, it’s a really bad and scummy idea to L-1 this early, especially in a 9p game. VOTE: Spartan117

Ok, so he voted for Spartan because of putting teacher at L-1. I can understand that, as I have stated before about my thoughts on IF we had to lynch at that point in the game, I would have thrown my vote on Spartan too.

2. If someone votes themselves and others jump on the wagon and vote him, what does that say about their alignment? What was the alignment of this player in your last game?

Nothing, but it’s anti-town to start the wagon. The player was VT, self voted and did nothing but made him look scummy. The next day he self hammered. UNVOTE:

Don’t wanna risk a mislynch, much like Mini 2099.

I voted him to avoid the lolhammer of teacher and now I unvoted for some bullshit reason...

Ok, so what was the BS reason?

I agree, we need to lynch anyone today, rn I honestly don’t care if it’s a mislynch today, info is better none. So let’s spice things up.
Using random.org I will vote one of the top 2 wagons.
Heads = Spartan
Tails = Dong
random.org says

Tails

VOTE: Dong

Nowhere in his previous posts has he said anything about his thoughts on Dong, yet Dong is one of his choices. Sure, this was after the teacher/Dong back and forth, but still you should have some ideas as to why you think Dong is scum.

I used randomness because of my indecisiveness. May I ask why you’re keeping your vote on Merfin?

Actually, VOTE: Spartan for now, I’ll wait for dong to come back from v/la.

Again, I don't see any real thought as to why. It looks like he is just trying to jump on whatever wagon is there.

Plus, I know that my post count is the lowest but if you look at the actual content, I think Salad has had the least to add. I only mention this because people keep talking about my post count. I honestly think that Merfin added more to the game than Salad. At least Merfin had a post explaining why they voted for someone and had examples.

VOTE: Salad

First, I said for some bullshit reason because I actually forgot why. I put dong on there because they were one of the top 2 wagons. I voted spartan because I wanted to wait for dong, but I should’ve unvoted instead.

[GeorgeBailey]

[*]¹Pushes - He voted Merfin's slot (Gimm1ck) which was ok and stuff, game was progressing, questions were being asked and so on, however, once Dong became a wagon, his mood changed... He started to attract attention off of Dong... There's 2 explanations in my opinion: 1. They're scumbuddies, simple as that; 2. They're Masons, interesting, but he should be more townie if so...
[*]²Calling my play scummy, but not scummy... Is it newbtown that plays a no lynch-D1? Is it newbscum that has such a play? I mean, whenever people want to point fingers, I want to see solid reasoning behind.

So far, I've put George at the bottom of my list because of his uncertainty...
He's fidgeting between pushes, he's not really jumping on a wagon... I don't do either, but I've explained my reason earlier and I stand by my word

I understand the D1 lynch meta now that I've studied the forum and would like to join in, however, that would turn me into a "scum" for not backing-up my play.

[1]- I defended Dong because I think Teacher's reasons aren't sufficient for a lynch (I told teacher in post 202).

[2] - I just think that you shouldn't get "Town Points" just because you made a mistake that probably both NewbScum and NewbTown would make.

I'll admit, I defended Dong a little too much, so i'm gonna wait until Dong's back from V/LA to voice their opinion, then vote. (Probably Salad, but I want to wait and see.)

Not a fan of Aaron's RVS not because of his flavor but his readiness to justify his flavor / reactions to people saying it was too much (post 22/24)

RVS is simply random, and it looked like Aaron was having fun with his flavor. This seems like a huge stretch. I think G1mmick raised some interesting points, but I really don't see the case against Aaron.

[GeorgeBailey]

@Gimm1ck

Is it intentional that you're still voting for Spartan?

If so, why?

[Yodavader]

-snipping my quote so that it's not adding to the wall of text-

First, I said for some bullshit reason because I actually forgot why. I put dong on there because they were one of the top 2 wagons. I voted spartan because I wanted to wait for dong, but I should’ve unvoted instead.

So, you are basically saying that you will just +1 whatever the biggest wagon is currently?

[Saladman27]

Not necessarily now, but yeah, basically.

[Spartan117]

I would like to point out you only partially highlighted my post, as I mentioned why I've put him at the bottom of my list.

In#204 where you say, looks unjust to me, is in reference to george scum reading salad.

So your hard scum read on george is just because he scum reads salad?

Or am I missing something? If so please tell me what you have put that shows your scumread on george with explanation.

Anyway, I don't see you playing scum at all, on my TL you were around mid-way, kind of, however, scumreading Salad, which from my point of view looks very netural (I cannot get a proper read out of his posts and actions), looks unjust to me. Salad play in his last post, in my opinion, is a scumbait and now he's waiting on people to react on his action in order to scumread someone.

[Chibiie]

Or am I missing something? If so please tell me what you have put that shows your scumread on george with explanation.

I've literally did...

[...]

ANYWAY, reasons for why I've put George at the bottom of my list are the followings:

[*]Pushes - He voted Merfin's slot (Gimm1ck) which was ok and stuff, game was progressing, questions were being asked and so on, however, once Dong became a wagon, his mood changed... He started to attract attention off of Dong... There's 2 explanations in my opinion: 1. They're scumbuddies, simple as that; 2. They're Masons, interesting, but he should be more townie if so...
[*]Calling my play scummy, but not scummy... Is it newbtown that plays a no lynch-D1? Is it newbscum that has such a play? I mean, whenever people want to point fingers, I want to see solid reasoning behind.

So far, I've put George at the bottom of my list because of his uncertainty...
He's fidgeting between pushes, he's not really jumping on a wagon... I don't do either, but I've explained my reason earlier and I stand by my word

I understand the D1 lynch meta now that I've studied the forum and would like to join in, however, that would turn me into a "scum" for not backing-up my play.

[Spartan117]

I've literally did...

Was that from #204 no its from #280 which is 28 hours later, I'm asking where you have said why you put george as your hard scum read in #204 maybe you put it in a previous post

before

#204 if so great show me, but strictly in #204 you said

I dont see you playing Scum at all

with no counter point as to why you actually think hes scum as you put him as your hardscum read, anyone can post a day later with reasons after they have taken the time to go through and cover their tracks, but

at that time

I don't see it, so if its there at #204 or before show me, thanks.

[Spartan117]

I understand the D1 lynch meta now that I've studied the forum and would like to join in, however, that would turn me into a "scum" for not backing-up my play.

You are right this does look a very sus flip of opinion given your hard stance on a no lynch before, and ever so convenient now that we are closer to the deadline. mhmm

[Chibiie]

I've literally did...

Was that from #204 no its from #280 which is 28 hours later, I'm asking where you have said why you put george as your hard scum read in #204 maybe you put it in a previous post

before

#204 if so great show me, but strictly in #204 you said

I dont see you playing Scum at all

with no counter point as to why you actually think hes scum as you put him as your hardscum read, anyone can post a day later with reasons after they have taken the time to go through and cover their tracks, but

at that time

I don't see it, so if its there at #204 or before show me, thanks.

If you read my #204 post a couple time, you should understand what I am implying. Mafia, just like Plotinus said it too, is a psychological game where we try to guess the colour of people's role cards based on their behaviour. (I can feel the british in your colo

u

r and behavio

u

r )
Scums will act as Townie as possible in order to not be lynched early on in the game and I can see the reason behind D1 lynching, as info is very important here, where the game goes on for a solid week and more. The only leads we get in these past days are strictly from human interaction right now... We're challenging the logic of each other in order to try and guess who's Town and who's scum.

In #204, I've asked George what does my play mean to him, requesting a no lynch-D1, is it scummy or townie? I've actually pointed out that there is a contradiction in his posts, ultimately claiming that my play isn't scummy, nor townie, but a newbplay and should be considered neutral basically, am I right, George?

"Anyway, I don't see you playing scum at all, on my TL you were around mid-way, kind of, however, scumreading Salad [...]"

^ This is what I call a bit of a words play, because everyone was pretty much equal on my trusted list, it's just D1, we're still deciding on who to lynch and start to

actually

accuse people under valid reasons and study the links between players and I've never called him

scum

, however, out of everyone's engagement in the game, his is the strangest to

me

(This is my point of view), but that's due to defending a wagon for quite a while and also for his lack of confidence when trying to prove his process of decision-making.

I've updated the list afterwards and called Towns, Neutrals and Scums, but you all really are just unknown to me in this early-stage of the game and all I'm doing is analyzing your chatter, but also trying to engage and pull opinions and thoughts out of y'all.

I really enjoy this platform, the game is very fun to me, enjoying the process of a days-long Mafia game.

[Donempire]

@Georgie im back from v/la, so if you're not voting me based ön that feel free to. Im having a hard time approaching the game is all.

[Gimm1ck]

The way I see Dong currently is actually a townlean. I do not believe their read on teacher is fabricated to be false; Dong's reluctance to back down on a read they find to be correct to them is townie in my book. Scum Dong wouldnt want to keep a read that is obviously drawing them negative attention, especially if they believe they are furthering pro town activity at this point

1. Playing out your hypothetical - You ever had a good hand pre-flop, completely miss but have to continuation bet to potentially take it on a semi-bluff?
2. Countering your hypothetical - what negative attention was it drawing, other than mine? It set off alarm bells for me, but everyone else (other than Aaron?) poo-pooed it.

Time to explain something about what I look for when I am scum hunting;
Scum generally want to avoid being lynched day one and individually do not want attention on themselves (which is why pressure and rvs swinging is very beneficial to give reads). Scum want to appear nonchalant for the majority of day one to avoid being lynched, giving reactions to town, or making any hint towards their partner(s).

A side affect from this is that scum tend to not make any extremely polarizing reads in fear of either being caught on lackluster logic and counterwagoned onto, or being OMGUSsed /FOSed due to their reads. That leads them to play somewhat passively and attempt to maintain a neutral posture on wagons.

Scum Dongempire had plenty of time after Aaron lynched him and teacher's negative attention - as you say - to either modify their read slightly, ask more questions, or attempt to shift attention off themselves if they were scum in the form of making more, different reads. Which I do not see them doing; especially given that they refreshed and enhanced their read later on - directly after Aaron lynched them for that read (will get quotes in a second don't want to fuck up quotes again).

Rather, their steadfast resolve to push teacher is a townie move in my opinion.

[Gimm1ck]

Alright, i gotta make do with what i already have here.

I dont like teachers response to getting wagoned. He posts about an hour later he is at l-1 and immediatly lashes out onto aaron for not unvoting even though he isnt on his wagon.

Why do you want teacher to claim? Do you intend on lynching him today?

This is a terrible response to L-1 from somebody who is on my wagon.

Now i agree that this would be a bad post had he actually been on his wagon, and even though aaron wasnt i still have a bone to pick with it but the gist is this: teacher was panicking here.
Now lolhammers are a common enough occurence on newbie games, enough to keep an eye out or even panic at times. However an experienced player like teacher, had he rolled town shouldnt have problem keeping calm at l-1. I feel like town!teacher here would have tried to explain the implications of a L-1 this early and panicked later. I believe that he also would have townread this at first glance.
Of course him disappearing right after that doesnt do him any favors either i dont think. Somethings wrong with his playstyle, yet i cant quite put my finger on it right now. I guess i'll have more substantial stuff later in the game.

Besides that im not liking saladmans activity. He seems to post a lot, yet almost all of them lack substance.

Alright so looking through Saladman's meta, so far it does seem pretty consistent with town!Salad. I think my vote is better placed here honestly.

VOTE: Dongempire

Really did not like their case against teacher. teacher wasn't responding to the fact that he was at L-1, he was responding to Spartan when he seemed to imply that he was okay with hammering on page 2 and I think teacher's response is fine because of that. Not necessarily saying it's townie, but it's definitely not scummy.

Dong immediately after 39:

teacher is a pretty relaxed player overall so i dont think the response is telling.

Dong now, about 39:

teacher was panicking here.

Um, what??

VOTE: Dong

Yup, you just compounded my argument further.
You are a very relaxed player yet you clearly panicked there.
These two things dont contradict, they compliment.

@Dong

I think aarons reaction to the vote is also pretty bad, it reads as though hes more concerned on where he is at when/if a lynch occurs rather than getting a scum lynch through. The whole convo reads like TvS and if i had to pick a side i'd say aarons the goon here.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Sure can.

At that point i thought town!you would be more concerned with trying to persuade spartan out of l-1ing teacher. Your posts seem more like you're trying to seem reasonable without taking any action, what with asking spartan if he wants a lynch. On surface level it seems like a natural enough question but definitely not the question to be asking at page 2. I think a town response would be more in line with "the fuck?"

Honestly hope to god that I learned how to quote, but here you can see what I compiled up in my previous post.

[Yodavader]

Honestly hope to god that I learned how to quote, but here you can see what I compiled up in my previous post.

When you multi quote, if you want to add your thoughts on them, just make sure you type your thoughts between the [/quote] (the end of the actual quote) and the next

(the beginning of the next quote). Also, there is a Preview button at the bottom and you can use that to make sure that your post looks the way you want it to.

[Chibiie]

Time to explain something about what I look for when I am scum hunting;
Scum generally want to avoid being lynched day one and individually do not want attention on themselves (which is why pressure and rvs swinging is very beneficial to give reads). Scum want to appear nonchalant for the majority of day one to avoid being lynched, giving reactions to town, or making any hint towards their partner(s).

A side affect from this is that scum tend to not make any extremely polarizing reads in fear of either being caught on lackluster logic and counterwagoned onto, or being OMGUSsed /FOSed due to their reads. That leads them to play somewhat passively and attempt to maintain a neutral posture on wagons.

For D1, I believe this applies for everyone. Nobody wants to get lynched D1, regardless of alignment, be it scum or town, however, I don't really agree on your statement "That leads them to play somewhat passively and attempt to maintain a neutral posture on wagons."... Scums know each other, they shouldn't be scared to push someone, their goal is to push town to mislynch and kill at night, but make it in a way that won't backfire on them...

In the same time, it depends on players and how they believe they can win and however they plan their moves.
Anyway, I just wanted to point that out because walking through the pages of the game, you can see that at some point everyone was pointing fingers at someone for a reason, nobody was passive. Your statement is real, but in this game... You could call me the passive one for refusing a D1-lynch, however, I do have someone I would like to lynch too due to my reads and I've already mentioned that in #204 and later explained more in-depth in #280, ultimately (and hopefully) completely cleared things out in #290.

I agree that scums could play passive, but in this game, nobody was passive.

[Chibiie]

Actually, I could call Salad as being the netural and passive one, but at the same time, I doubt his reasoning for that is being scum.
I stand by my #280 regarding Salad.

Let the game progress!

[teacher]

Not so much a prodge as a I’ve given my compromise pool and views and. I thing has really changed my perspective. It’s time for a lynch.

[teacher]

And nothing*

[teacher]

@Georgie im back from v/la, so if you're not voting me based ön that feel free to. Im having a hard time approaching the game is all.

I find the fact I can’t get this wagonned, despite this apathy (and everything else), concerning.