Alisae V Pine: Trees Apparently Make Good Treestumps

[popsofctown]

Dannflor make kittens appear in the next votecount

[Alisae]

Can’t you just ask jingle to put Pandora in the next vote count?

[Iconeum]

Do you not think the worst is scum anymore?

I still dislike the mastina stuff, but the other part of my read there wasn't what I thought it was so … Also his response to me felt like a strong town reaction rather then scummy OMGUS.

[mastina]

I don't really know why scum bodyguard can't be a thing so I don't totally care.

Find the last game on mafiascum.net to feature a scum bodyguard.

I'll wait.

That she's scum and is now just deliberately trying to make the game unpleasant to read and drag the town down is what I prefer to believe because I'd like to think mastina doesn't fucking make so many bad-faith bullshit lies about me as town.

The fact that I am far from the only one seeing why you're scum is proof enough that what I'm seeing isn't in bad faith and isn't bullshit.

However, this is a blatant projection given that your case on me was in fact exactly what you're accusing me of: blatant lies and utter bullshit which when I write the full countercase will be more obvious (but that will take time).

Rn I don’t care what she is. I lost my scumread on her awhile ago and just don’t care anymore

So this is the post I was talking about which made me do my as-close-to-180-as-possible-without-being-actual-full-reversal read on Firebringer.

Before this post, I had Firebringer as lockscum. Almost as lockscum as Krazy, levels of lockscum. Someone who could never be town this game, who was in every way shape or form, scum--normally, off of a single post, you...don't flip a scumread like that. Scum can, and will, make posts which off of just the one post look good but won't change the read on them, and that gave me hesitance. But the thing about this is.

It just...I know it's just the one post. But I can't think of how it comes from Firebringer as scum, not even as "scum making a single good post". But I can and do see it as coming from Firebringer as town.

This instantly bumped Firebringer up in my readslist which is why overnight my read on him changed from scum to town; I didn't get a chance to comment on this post before day ended yesterday so didn't get to tell you about the basically-read-reversal yesterday and how my stance on him has shifted:

If I went through the POE of every player, had no more than four other scumreads and was townreading everyone else--by default, yes, I would lynch Firebringer. But only if, IF, I went through the POE of every player and townread literally everyone else. Sixteen alive, I know the alignments of two of them. That's fourteen players for five scum slots, and Firebringer is one of the players. So it would take...let's do the math...I believe it's nine locktown townreads which aren't Firebringer for me to consider lynching him? Math might be off, but you get what I am going at here; he's basically where chennisden was at yesterday in that "push came to shove if I had absolutely no other choice, yes I would lynch him but I wouldn't be happy doing it and I wouldn't be optimistic at hitting scum", and that stance?

That stance could easily solidify into being a townread proper. I need time to air my thoughts out with others live, mull it over, let things bounce back and forth more or less to see if the townread should be stronger or if the townread is erroneous.

The point is.

I had five players I thought was scum.
And Firebringer was one of them.
And now I am thinking that Firebringer scumread was wrong.
So if Firebringer is town like I now suspect.
That means I am one scumread short.
And if I am one scumread short--that means someone I am calling town, isn't.

So let's review the options again:

Skygazer/Titus
Dannflor
Menalque
GreyIce
xofelf/Something_Smart

popsofctown
Iconeum

the worst

Pink Ball

Gamma Emerald--NEED FEEDBACK

Katsuki--NEED FEEDBACK


PenguinPower

MariaR


Firebringer


Krazy

Titus remains the town of towns this game and nothing I've seen has made me think otherwise. There have been plays from Titus which I have felt weren't playing to the most pro-town angle possible, but these plays were things that I've seen Titus do as town and come from a point of frustration more than anything else. There is zero scum in her slot and there's damn fucking good reason she's my top townread. This is not a read I am going to change, period.

I need to review Menalque to do diligent's sake, but I am 99% sure that this is Menalque as town. I know Pine coaches his scumbuddies. I know that there is a chance Ank hid behind Menalque. ("Wasn't that a point your top scumread, Krazy, made?" Yes, it is specifically because it was Krazy that I so much as am entertaining the 1% because there's a chance that Krazy's hypothesis is one which is his actual, legitimate, best guess and his stance is a bus.) But this is a level of play from Menalque which is beyond ANYTHING he has EVER shown as scum--not by a little bit, by a LOT. This is the towniest Menalque has ever been, and I've seen him as town before. This is nothing like any scum performance I've seen from Menalque. His pushes are reasonable; his posts sound town; tonally, he's sincere, he's reasonable, he's logical, he's someone who is just playing incredibly well and frankly even with coaching I don't think he pulls this off as scum. So while I do need to review him for the 1% chance that he's scum, I do need to reread, reanalyze, his posts to make sure he's not scum...he is literally just 1% away from me townbinning him to the same level Titus is.

GreyICE is just not scum this game ever. People have lost their townreads on him due to time, but unlike other stale townreads which're justifiably degraded (see also: Katsuki, MariaR), GreyICE is a player who was never going to flip scum for a combination of reasons. LLD-GreyICE could orchestrate a bus, sure, but they wouldn't organize it in THIS way, they wouldn't make the game THIS toxic from it, and Pine wouldn't stand for that level of unfunness. There was a level of pure raw emotion, sincerity, strength, backing GreyICE and while GreyICE is always going to show those elements to some extent, the level he showed was off the charts this game. GreyICE's absence can also in part be attributed to the fact that the dude's literally being replaced; the other slots which there are stale townreads on have no such excuse.

popsofctown is a player who I didn't locktown yesterday though I listed her as the highest read not locktowned--frankly I was an idiot to not have just committed to it. Call it hesitance, reluctance to give up on the initial scumread, paranoia of her tunneling me and pushing a pro-scum agenda off of shitty reads/reasons and the fear that that came from a player who was just actually scum. But frankly. Doubts on her townness are precisely that; paranoia. Not things which hold actual water.

popsofctown's approach here is just tremendously town. She's pushing things which help scum, yes. (See also; she's one of the largest proponents of my mislynch.) But pushing things which help scum doesn't make a slot scum as Alisae can attest given eir content thusfar.

The townread more or less comes from a combination of everything. popsofctown might be pushing a tunnel which is the most tremendously anti-town tunnel humanly possible...but there is a conviction behind it. There are more actual reasons from popsofctown on her scumreads--even horrendously wrong ones--than there are from any other slot pushing shitty reads. More than that, not all her reads are crap. She has other good reads. She's being a bit of a moron by not putting two and two together (who the fuck are my scumbuddies? Most of the players she's scumreading aside from me want me dead, and in half the cases I want them dead now and in the other half of the cases WANTED them dead at some point in the game previously), but while faking stupidity can come from scum, this is the type of oversight which I don't think is an 'oversight' from scum and is just a genuine lack of that specific form of critical thought.

Because popsofctown has given plenty of critical thought. She is clearly scumhunting. She has given good reads, even if at-least-half-wrong ones, and while her reasons for scumreading me are shit, half her scumreads have genuinely good logic and reasoning backing them; she's noticed things at or before the times I noticed them, there's been strong pushes from her, she's approaching from every angle and she's covering multiple different things.

I'm not sure how much more I can really explain this townread but it is a townread enough to turn her into locktown. Plus, as an aside--I actually believe Pine via Pine's message to popsofctown, that Jingle sniped pops before Pine could pick her up. That, sure, Pine wanted to pick popsofctown, but couldn't, because Jingle beat him to her. This is the same reasoning I used on Ank and I still feel it holds true now.

Iconeum remains about the same to me to be honest. Nothing he has done is particularly impressive. He remains a viable pick for Pine. He very easily could be scum. But on the other hand. I have a gut feeling that he's literally just chennisden 2.0. A free scum mislynch, mislynch bait, low-hanging fruit that is town rather than low-hanging fruit that is scum. Someone who looks scummy as hell, but who isn't actually scum. I do need to review the read in more detail tho because I realize that this is a hot topic of the day.

the worst, I will be honest with you: objectively I probably should reevaluate him because I can't write the same explanations I can for the likes of popsofctown, Titus, and Menalque for why he's town. Objectively, I know that the worst is a

really damn good

scum player and it wouldn't take much for him to be a scum carry, who in spite of early scumreads on the slot avoids all suspicion and takes it to the endgame. Objectively, I know that I should give him a look and reanalyze my read there to make sure he's town.

But frankly. I honestly. Legit. Just...don't know how I would do so effectively. What would I be looking for? What kind of smoking gun would give away that he's scum? I don't have a solid grounding for what to look for which would stand out as being scum. And lacking that. What I can tell you is that everything I see, everything I look at, is telling me, "yeah this isn't tw as scum". That, the worst is well outside of his admittedly-impressive scumrange. That everything he is doing is town. That he is doing all the right things and none of the wrong things. That by every metric he is town.

I don't know how I could reevaluate him when everything is telling me he's town and I don't see any effective way to analyze from a different viewpoint. Sure, my writeup on him isn't as logical as the likes of Titus, Menalque, and popsofctown. But my read on him? Honestly, my read on him is just as strong in being town.

Pink Ball, I'll admit: until I skimmed his posts from this day phase at work today, I was questioning if he was town or not. I didn't have a smoking gun which would cause me to scumread him (sayyyy, him when he reads all my posts scumreading me, or him when he reads all my posts thinking Krazy's case had any merit to it whatsoever), because those scum indicators I was looking for...didn't exist. And they still don't exist. And you know why they don't exist? Not because Pink Ball's having an out of this world scum performance. I always thought he was weakly town, but seeing his thoughts today that is firmly pushed to locktown of locktown because this is just town him through and through. Trust me--I've looked, carefully, for any sign of him being scum; there are none. And his content is town to the core.

I've talked about my scumreads, albeit not as much as I should.
As a quick refresher:
PenguinPower's play here is strongly reminiscent of his recent scumgame performance; Pine would absolutely pick PenguinPower based off of PP's previous scumgame performance; sure, PenguinPower as town isn't exactly thrilling, but his contribution this game is incredibly lackluster and his content is fairly opportunistic and lacks critical thought, lacks scumhunting, lacks actual analysis, lacks any substance. It's empty, it's hollow, it's shallow, and while PenguinPower can be lackluster as town he's not this lackluster.

Katsuki was strongly townread for his D1 push on LLD...but unlike GreyICE whose push on LLD D1 was something which earned him a justifiable townread and unlike GI whose absence from the game is easily and readily explained...Katsuki's lackluster content very much is not. Katsuki's pop-ins have been pushing a blatantly scum-oriented agenda and lack critical thought. This is not the Katsuki who destroyed my scumteam in FakeGod's game. This is not the Katsuki from the last Pine game. This is a Katsuki who when I tried to find a way to defend him, to justify him being town...I wrote a post and posted it but as I was writing it I literally thought "this feels like bullshit" because there actually

isn't

reason to defend him off of meta.

MariaR was a townread on D1, but that townread amounted to little more than gut. MariaR for the majority of the game did nothing, but when it was looking like my mislynch wouldn't go through, suddenly she stepped up her game and went hard-aggressive against me. Yet in doing so, her reasons have been highly hypocritical; she's using a double-standard, defending herself against accusations that she herself is throwing at me, and her push lacks sincerity, lacks backing, lacks reasoning, lacks genuineness. It's a fake push. False bravado. It's something which boils down to "mastina is scum because I said so" more than it is an actual reason and that is not MariaR as town; that is MariaR as scum through and through.

Krazy is probably best summarized in my countercase but to keep a long story short: in his "case" against me, he outright LIED about my meta, he outright IGNORED towngames of mine which show traits he attributes to scumastina and outright IGNORED scumgames of mine which lacked the traits he attributed to scumastina because they were inconvenient to his narrative. He is selling a narrative which looks good on the surface when you don't give it critical thought but which when analyzed you realize is utter bullshit, nonsense he literally pulled out of his ass, superficial comparisons that could be made between any two games without giving deeper thought as to whether there is an actual connection there.

There's people who defend him off of saying "Krazy was similar to this in towngame X, he's disinterested in mafia and is leaving the site so that's why he's been lackluster", except that reasoning is flawed because Krazy even disinterested has shown, proven, more capable than what he's doing in this game--and frankly? Frankly, if Krazy was actually disinterested town, he'd have replaced out by now because there'd be nothing to keep him in the game. There is something which IS keeping him in the game tho.

But when you do the math, that leaves one scum slot free.

And the slots I haven't talked about?

Gamma Emerald and Dannflor. Joining them in the possibilities is Iconeum I guess; if we go with the fairly safe at this point assumption of Firebringer being town and at this stage I think I am willing to say precisely that...one of those three is scum.

And when Ali asked me to vote Dannflor, I did...because I think that there is the very real chance that he's scum, a deepscum who says good things but who is still pushing a scum agenda.

The reason boils down to three things:
1: I can buy that Ank hid behind Dannflor even without breadcrumbs. Hiding behind Dannflor feels like the sort of hide that Ankamius would make.
I can buy Ankamius breadcrumbing in the manner which she supposedly did for Dannflor. That feels like the sort of breadcrumbing that she would do.
When you combine the two, there is the very realistic chance that, yes, she did in fact hide behind him and the reason she died is because he's scum.

However.

If I thought that this was the only reason, I'd be throwing it out the window. Lynching a very good, damn strong player, off of the CHANCE that Ank hid behind them? Not very appeasing.

But there's two smoking guns which made me further think Dannflor was possible scum, and they are...

2: Dannflor halted his Krazy push. Dannflor was one of the strongest proponents of Krazy being scum. This was one of the main reasons why I thought Dannflor was town. He pushed Krazy with good reasons which resonated with me as being true. Except...Dannflor suddenly, abruptly, halted his Krazy push after Krazy's bullshit case on me.

In of itself, this wouldn't be a red flag--there are plenty of players who cave in to paranoia of being in a tunnel, of "maybe I'm confbiasing town". In this playerlist, the worst of them would be the worst and Dannflor I'd say; they are the two players I'd most expect to demonstrate that trait, that trait of having hard pushed someone as scum with good reasoning but falling prey to doubt, second-guessing themselves, and talking themselves out of the correct scumread.

Except.

Dannflor's halted push on Krazy was something which if he were town I'd expect to have been temporary. He'd take a look at it, realize, "okay, that might've been better than what I've seen from Krazy the whole game...but he's still scum". I'd have expected him, with his experience, to know and recognize that Krazy's case was horseshit and holds no water. I'd expect for him to have resumed the push, and while having entertained other ideas, to come back to it.

But he didn't.

As far as I remember, he dropped the push altogether and has not once resumed it.

Even THIS, while a great sin indicating he was scum distancing who when he got the chance backed off of the tunnel once given a convenient excuse to change the read...

...Wouldn't be enough to condemn him.

But then you get:
3: He is defending players like MariaR. Dannflor, if he were town, I would fully expect to "get" why Maria is scum, and yet he's saying there's no case against her even when there very much is one? This set off a red flag, and is compounded with where he's pushing. He's pushing of all people Iconeum, someone who is low-hanging fruit, as a top scumread of his. And while low-hanging fruit can be scum...it's an easy, lazy push for a player of his caliber to be making. It's surface-level analysis and Dannflor is not a shallow enough player to be making that sort of surface-level conclusions.

That is why when Ali asked me to vote him I was more than willing to answer it.

But I do admit; I called Dannflor locktown at a point in the game and I had to have damn good reasons for making a call like that. So he is a player that I really really need to review to make sure these points on him are legitimate, that these points on him hold water, that I'm not caving in to paranoia and that he actually legitimately is scum, not just town who I second-guessed my correct townread on.

The only player I haven't touched on is Gamma and I know I need to get a better read there but I also have no clue how to other than just...hoping an iso and what my gut tells me when looking at it will give me the answer.

[popsofctown]

Can’t you just ask jingle to put Pandora in the next vote count?

@Jingle - put Pandora in the next votecount

[mastina]

SO LET'S PUT THAT IN A READSLIST.

Skygazer/Titus
Menalque
GreyIce
popsofctown
Pink Ball
xofelf/Something_Smart
the worst

Firebringer--probably not up there with the others in locktown but also probably not scum to a VERY high degree


Gamma Emerald--NEED FEEDBACK + NEEDS REVIEW

Iconeum--NEEDS REVIEW






Dannflor--NEEDS REVIEW
Katsuki--NEED FEEDBACK



PenguinPower



MariaR






Krazy

About this.

[Dannflor]

@mastina, I have only started feeling better about Krazy this day phase. I only moved off of him yesterday to compromise on chennisden because no one else would vote Krazy.

I'm sorry I don't "get" why MariaR is scum, there were a couple posts she made earlier that I called out that I thought were scummy, but the reasons people seem to be pushing her with now are nebulous at best

[popsofctown]

... you have six slots that are not an entire tier below conftown? I mean, I appreciate the compliment, but like..... really???

[mastina]

But she's making it boring to refute her points because they've already been refuted and now she's just going in circles.

Very much false considering that every point I've made has been unique; I've not circled around, and none of my points were refuted--in fact, players refused to do so.

The players going in circles after their points were refuted are the people who have called me scum; I refuted their points but they pretended that I didn't and continued pushing those same fucking points.

But will cover this more in my Krazy countercase.

Btw I claim self resolving roles as scum, Titus
And gotten away with it

Yes but you aren't me.

I mean they can but they have to go for sub optimal kills which benefits town.

And this would be why scum REALLY fucking want me dead.

Just want to make it clear that Titus, the person that knows mastina better than anyone else, argues that if she felt it would be appropriate then mastina would lie about her role.

Just want to point out that this narrative is a misrep of Titus's point.

Like, yes, you're also arguing that mastina wouldn't claim bodyguard as scum, but that's a ridiculous argument because mastina never imagines herself endgaming as scum, so she expects to be resolved before endgame but she tries to control *when* she goes down when she is scum.

"mastina never imagines herself endgaming as scum, she expects to be resolved before endgame but she tries to control when she goes down" isn't fully accurate but is close enough of a statement to the truth that I'll let it slide.

What won't slide is the argument that that statement invalidates "scumastina doesn't claim bodyguard as scum". Because nothing in that statement makes me claim bodyguard as scum.

-it's a weird closed setup and she could just be a scum bodyguard, in which case, I disagree that she wouldn't claim her real role.

Yes because Pine totally requests as a fucking role a Scum fucking Bodyguard, a role which when used successfully DIES and WILL FLIP SCUM BODYGUARD. Makes sense.

-for all we know Pine told her to claim bodyguard or it's some bullshit they cooked up in the scum PT.

Ignores that that's not how the Pine-mastina interactions work. I can prove it, too; every time Pine and I have been scum together, he's deferred to me. Not vice-versa.

-or she's just. lying. about. her. role. for *whatever* reason.

Violation of occam's razor.

which you just accepted is an actual possibility, and goes against the *core tenet* of mastina's defense which is that she basically trust-tells with roleclaims.

I will cover this in my Krazy countercase.

in fact, since she's refusing to be publically leashed but is instead going for Ali's private leash, there's no reason to think that scum won't just kill whoever she is not privately leashed to which means that the town consensus value players will not actually be guaranteed to stay alive.

The problem with that argument is that scum don't know who I am privately leashed to.

Also, given that neither Formerfish nor jjh were protections that I ever would've made, scum have provably been playing around my kill regardless of whether you say they theoretically might have no reason to--it doesn't matter if you think that in theory they have no reason to; the evidence proves that they HAVE.

VOTE: chennis

Btw, in case it's relevant: I was online when pops cast this vote. I was still online the entire time. I was reading this thread, saw the vote. I had the opportunity to hammer. I was online the entire time and even stayed online for some time after pops's eventual unvote. I didn't take the chance to hammer chennis when I had it. That was only an 11 or so minute window, but I might've posted on discord during that time which would give proof that I was online. The proof that I was reading in addition to being online in that window, I MIGHT be able to give, but it'd involve a screenshot--one which I THINK Jingle would allow as legal because it shouldn't "prove" anything; it'd just show you my tabs in one of my two browsers.

(I have a very weird setup. My main browser is Chrome and I exclusively play mafia from Chrome, but I BROWSE mafia games in Opera, and right now have a permanent Opera tab open for this game. My discord is on Opera, too, among other things. So I'd want to give the screenshot of my Opera tabs, to demonstrate that I have a discord tab in Opera and have a mafiascum tab for this game in Opera which in tandem with me having maybe posted in discord during that 11 minute timeframe would be fair evidence that I was online and had the chance to hammer.)

But obviously need to clear it with the mod first and this is something prolly not worth the effort unless someone really wants to know that fact.

I will address 8025 in my Krazy countercase post.
I will address 8027 in my Krazy countercase post.
I will address 8033 in my Krazy countercase post.

it bothers me that mastina hasn't tried to setup an "if-then" vengelynch on krazy

Let me be frank.
You fucking lynch me you fucking deserve to lose.

That fucking simple.

It's more than one fact.
This is outside of my scumrange by fucking miles. I've never been this town in any game of mine ever and literally the entire fucking dead thread is screaming at you "mastina is town" "I've never seen mastina be more obviously town" "it sucks that I'm dead because I would be able to defend mastina here" and so on and so forth.

I, legitimately, honestly, feel like I very well could have the best reads in the game. I've never felt this good, this passionate, this strong, about my reads in a game since the last time I had really damn good reads. Like, we're talking...I feel like these reads are at "better than Steven Universe 2" levels. These reads feel like they're on fucking Tales of You levels--sure, yeah, no matter how hard I try, I'm not going to nail the exact scumteam especially since I have had trouble efforting, I have trouble reevaluating, I have trouble telling what's a valid lead and what's paranoia, I have the tendency to be a tunnelfuck, I have been fucking raging hardcore which affects my read accuracy, and so on and so forth.

Yes, I know that--but I legitimately.
Genuinely.
Feel like in this game.
Reads-wise.
I am getting better and better. Honing in on the actual game solve. Reads which are better than random for the first fucking game in who the fuck knows how long but it's a very fucking long time. My reads are GOOD. I know they are. Maybe not perfect; when was the last time mastina nailed an entire scumteam? Maybe there's a game where she did but it'd have to have been ages ago. But DAMN good even if not perfect.

I have never been more town than I have been in this game in ANY fucking game I have ever played;
I have never felt like I had better reads than I have in this game than I have felt in any game.

In of themselves, that would justify my statement.

But then you get into my role.

I am a fucking bodyguard.
There are a multitude of reasons for why my claim is real.
It fits with the proven theme of the flipped town roles. 2/3 of the flipped town roles had mechanics in place where using them would result in the user's death; my role is a third; the third flipped town role ALSO involved killing, just instead of killing themselves, killing others.
It fits with the game being "slightly scumsided" without being overwhelmingly scumsided.
It keeps the game from being overwhelmingly scumsided.
It is a protective role in a game desperately in need of ones, one without a counterclaim.
It is a role which for the duration of the time it is alive, scum must play around--people can argue "but scum don't need to play around it!"...except, given the nightkills in the game, it has been fairly definitively shown that the scum HAVE been playing around it. Every scum nightkill thusfar has been on a player who would never have been protected by my bodyguard; that demonstrates a level of fear and respect to trying to kill powertown players.
It is not a role scum would have on their team;
It is not a role I would fucking fakeclaim as scum;
It is a role which has helped keep players like Something_Smart and Titus alive when I guarantee you the moment I am mislynched they die one after another after another because OH HEY SURPRISE YOU FUCKING MISLYNCHED YOUR ONLY FUCKING PROTECTIVE ROLE IN THE GAME AND GAVE SCUM FREE REIGN TO KILL WHOEVER THE FUCK THEY PLEASE WHEN THEIR CURRENT NIGHTKILLS HAVE PROVEN THAT THEY WERE PREVIOUSLY AFRAID OF THAT.

On top of all that?
Every player who isn't probably-a-scumfuck, and even some players who COULD be scumfucks, that know me, have all said the same thing:
"This is mastina's towngame".
Something_Smart has played with me before; he is conftown and has said that I am more likely town than not.
Titus is a near-universal townread basically conftown and has said that I am town.
jjh is flipped town and when he was alive said that this was my towngame.
Skygazer is flipped town and when she was alive said that this was my towngame.
Menalque has said that this was my towngame.
GreyICE when he was in the game said that this was my towngame.
Pink Ball has said that this is my towngame.
the worst may have backtracked because he likes to be a derp and second-guess correct reads but when he wasn't being a moron he said that I had smashed my scumrange and was entirely out of it.
Firebringer has said that I am not scum.
Dannflor has said that I am town.
Heck, even chennisden (albeit him lacking much game experience with me) died saying I was more likely town than not.

Are you saying that ALL of them are wrong? All of these players, who have played dozens of games with me, some of them having played like 6+ games with me IN THIS YEAR, are all wrong about me? That I fooled every single one of them into thinking I am town? Because they can't all be my fucking scumbuddies defending me.

I should NEVER be the fucking lynch here.

So I shouldn't fucking NEED to set up a venge-lynch chain on Krazy because my fucking lynch should never fucking happen.

[Menalque]

Menalque, why is Pops at the very bottom of your reads list?

Because the way she was acting the other day made me feel v strongly that she’s scum even if I can’t explain exactly why

It’s like the game makes much more sense with pops!scum that it does with pops!town

[mastina]

mastina is probably scum
mostly because her wagon has been the only one that stayed consistent with its formation

Ali that is rats-ass backwards.

A wagon staying consistent with its formation isn't a town wagon; a wagon staying consistent with its formation is a red fucking flag that it's a scumdriven wagon.

krazy ignored the ank breadcrumb thing
is this a krazy-dannflor scumteam

That would be what I suspect, but need to confirm with an iso dive.

Right now my lynch list is {Krazy, PenguinPower, MariaR, Dannflor, Katsuki}; I would vote any of those five readily. Dannflor is the read I most need to reassess, reanalyze, reevaluate because, yes, I have townread him the entire game. But I will vote anyone in that pool of five because while all five in there might not be scum there's an outright MINIMUM of 3 in there and probably is at least four. I really like those odds.

[mastina]

Btw I only saw like...a season of that show, not the beginning but Uther was still alive during the time I watched it and I thought it was fairly good, albeit having some obvious flaws which I could see making the series get either much better or much worse or stay about the same with plenty of both.

From what I know, I believe that it was mostly "about the same" with ever so slightly the touch of getting worse.

Okay, so why does me suddenly tryharding and wanting Mastina lynched=Maria scum.

Because it's not a push town-Maria would make for a start.

pops is like, the most lovable person itt (and maybe the planet)

That can't be true, because that'd be the worst.

Formerfish was widely townread. Leaving S_S and Titus alive supports mastina wifom.

And yet you're fucking arguing that lynching me is a good thing in spite of this being proof of why lynching me is a fucking bad thing.

nice things don't exist this game

They will when we lynch scum; they won't when you continue to mislynch town, ESPECIALLY when you fucking mislynch a town PR, your only protective PR, and immediately following that a player who never would've died while that protective was alive gets nightkilled.

the m.o. of
> coast til pushed
> start generating content at lightspeed
> push someone vulnerable (unsure of krazzy's alignment)
> keep generating content but not actually try to get very very strong scumread lynched
is ringing alarm bells. Mastina like. really really wants to be alive here.

I addressed this before but to address it again in greater detail:
Every single fucking game I've played in the last like...what, three years? At least that long, maybe long, has been "coast 'til pushed, start generating content at lightspeed, push someone vulnerable, keep generating content but not actually try to get very strong scumread lynched".

Sure, that pattern includes scumgames. It also includes literally every fucking towngame I've played in the last three years. This isn't a scumastina trait; this is a mastina trait and I can point to these things in every game I've played, town and scum alike.
I can point to the large bursts of times where I gave no content.
I can point to the large bursts of posts in 'lightspeed' mode.
I can point to how many of these times, the pushes were on a player that was considered vulnerable--it won't be 100%, but it will be at least 40-60%.
I can point to how in every game, there were times where I "didn't try" to get very strong scumreads lynched. Every game it happened at least once.

And yes I don't want to be fucking mislynched.
If I were a VT--maybe. Maybe. MAYBE I would accept the mislynch. Even that's doubtful, because of the aforementioned reasons:

This IS outside of my scumrange by fucking miles. I've never been this town in any game of mine ever and yes literally every fucking player with dead thread access is screaming how town I am. Jingle will have made plenty of commentary on the subject, too, saying how the town is literally gamethrowing by lynching me when I'm one of their strongest players and stupendously obviously town among other merits.

This is a game where I feel I have tremendously good reads--no fucking shit I don't want to eat a fucking mislynch when I feel like my fucking reads are some of the best in the game.

So even if I were a VT I'd have strong incentive to not want to be lynched.

That I am a bodyguard only accentuates this because no matter how many times people say "mastina doesn't actually affect who the scum can kill", it's a proven fact that I HAVE, and as long as I am alive, will continue to do so--the moment I am mislynched, that goes away.

When you combine all of that, in spite of the pressure to mislynch me and the option that stupid town that are literally gamethrowing do exactly that.
There is the very real chance at this stage of me just eating a normal outright direct nightkill.

Yes, the stronger the suspicion on me and the stronger the wagon on me and the stronger the chance of my mislynch, the less chance there is of that happening.

But my lynch should never fucking happen because of how fucking town I am this game and because of that if it falls apart as it fucking should?

Damn straight I could die at night due to direct nightkill. The moment Pine thinks that I can't be mislynched anymore and thinks that I am dealing more damage to scum than town, he just kills me. And that? That could happen if people like you just stop pushing me and think critically rather than thinking shallow surface-level reasons.

[Menalque]

you should vote PP with PB and me @mastina

[mastina]

Let's play mafia and start by lynching MariaR today. Who is with me?

I've stated my intentions:
I will vote Krazy in a heartbeat;
I will join a PenguinPower wagon because PP is just probably scum this game;
I will join a MariaR wagon because she's probably scum;
I'd vote Katsuki even though I doubt that this gets the support for a lynch;
I'm currently voting Dannflor and while this is a read that I desperately need to reevaluate and after rereading with reanalyzing I might conclude otherwise for the time being I'm fine voting there.

So I will vote any of them.

Which means that, yes, I would be with you.

do you think she actually tried to get Krazy lynched

I mean I am ridiculously busy quite often, and ridiculously lazy, and a ridiculous procrastinator, and ridiculously vulnerable to having my batteries drained, and often am phoneposting which makes cases difficult, and often in catchup mode which means no cases while catching up, and when you combine all of these factors together, it's stupendously obvious that my Krazy case is not as strong as I want it to be--
But if you DO combine all of these factors together, put them into consideration, and then look at what

in spite of all of those things hindering me

, what I've tried to do?

Fuck yes I have.

which parts of her case have you convinced that she's convinced she's got scum?

Everything? Like...this isn't how I approach players I am tunneling on as scum; this isn't the reasoning I use on them; this isn't what I do; there is a passion, a fire, a conviction, behind my push that scumastina utterly lacks.

I'm aware she's tunnelling Krazy but she's literally just posting about how he's scum at the absolute exclusion of 1) trying to get a wagon going on him, or 2) properly sorting/evaluating other slots

This is literally rats-ass backwards because the two things you are asking for are virtually mutually exclusive: properly sorting/evaluating other slots--what I've done--robs me of the ability to try and get a wagon going on Krazy, and it's what I've leaned towards; trying to get a wagon going on Krazy, what I want and have tried to do, robs me of the ability to properly sort/evaluate other slots.

You can't have your cake and eat it too; you can only spend so much time on a game and I'm usually spending like...five hours a day whenever I am posting, posting in this game. I can't cover every base, even though I try to. And while I've done parts of both, pushing Krazy and sorting everyone...read my fucking iso; it's transparently obvious that I've been sorting/evaluating other slots far more than you fucking think I am.

Do you want me to quote all of my sorting/evaluating? Because it's like...a solid third of me, what, 300+ post iso? It's something I've been doing a tremendously large amount of the time.

Maria hardly gives fuck about this game and it’s pretty evident don’t know where u get an agenda reading her posts

Maria's "push" on me proves she does give a fuck about the game--it's not a push she suddenly makes as town, but IS one she makes as scum.

I don't think there's any universe where MariaR and mastina are scum together.

And I'm very unconvinced mastina will flip green.

And you're a tunnelfuck.

[Menalque]

yo SS do you wanna come vote PP with us?

ducky, why are you voting Mastina again?

[Menalque]

sidebar: ali, you should have made me a mason, it would have been a lowkey genius move

[the worst]

becauseeeeee she's scum

[Menalque]

why is she scum? I'm not saying she's not scum (I kinda feel like she's praising me a bit too much in a way that's sort of icky, also I think Titus is scum and so there's that) but I also think that other stuff she's saying is what I think (9310 -- I agree that a wagon staying super consistent is more likely a scum wagon, esp in a game like this where I find my reads changing a lot)

and I feel like scum are hoping to just stall this out to the point where people go "fuck it, let's just lynch mastina and see what the flip is so we have more info" because that's kinda of how I've been feeling some of the time. but I think it's more likely that scum are trying to make that happen through stalling things out, and it fits with the way that my SRs are distributed across a few different wagons because I think that's exactly the sort of thing that stalls out the game

and who is the most likely apathy lynch? exactly. mastina.

[Menalque]

like I'm aware of the possibility that I'm defending scum here and I've done that before but ultimately there comes a point where you have to decide who you think is town and who you think is scum and make decisions based on it

the things I see from mastina that I think make her town overall outweigh the things I see that make me think she's scum

same with PB

[Pink Ball]

Titus, you gave your vote to Pine right after we started a wagon on PenguinPower... Your frustration towards Ali feels coordinated with your Pine's bargain.

Tell me why I shouldn't believe you avoided jumping on your partner's wagon and have an excuse to vote mastina when your progression on her wouldn't let you vote her?

[mastina]

Be nice, mastina

If you wanted me to be nice, you should've made me be scum; you fucking KNEW that when I'd be town that me being an asshole was going to be the inevitable outcome.

7: mastina is a scum doctor who fakeclaimed a role that will never show a tracker that she targeted someone who died. She protected FormerFish's target.

A tracker would see that I protected who Ali told me to protect and you're a fucking moron if you think that scumastina doesn't know the risk of a tracker and take every possible countermeasure.

First of all, Mastina is scum period. Clear reasons have been brought up before.

None of which haven't been countered (with the exception of Krazy's "case" which I am working on a countercase for), and none of which after they were countered were re-countered.

I have mech reasons to suspect her as well.

I distinctly recall the last time MariaR said this, she was scum.

But let us even assume for a moment that you townread her for whatever reason. She's still the best lynch today why you might ask? Information.

What information is gained from me flipping scum? Name it.
What information is gained from me flipping town? Name it.

What information is gained from my lynch specifically which cannot be gained from a different lynch?

The Mastina scumreads will not magically go away.

They will when someone I scumread flips scum.

We need to shine a spotlight on players like PP and PB. They're just bad slots at this point who are bringing almost nothing to the game.

Yes and lynching your fucking bodyguard will totally force PP into doing something and not give him a free extra day to coast by.

Krazy being obvious town to me mostly relates to Mastina but even without that you can see how pure the push is.

The push was anything but pure considering it is based on things Krazy 100% knows to be lies off of facts I told him in private combined with public game experience with me.

Also, this is rats-ass backwards on the side of the "Krazy vs mastina" stance; saying KRAZY is the one with the pure push is an absolute fucking joke because it should be painfully obvious clear as day that yes I'm this fucking sure Krazy is scum.

I don't think scum Krazy goes out of the gate like this and keeps going unless it's something he really believes in.

He didn't have any choice.

He's clearly solving and has a good head on his shoulders!

Do tell.

kats LLD interactions can't be fake imo.

And do explain.

Like there’s about 70 pages that I didn’t read D3 and that I’m not gonna read unless I end up with the deciding vote in lylo

If you want to vote me.
Before doing so.
You NEED to read my posts on those pages.

Also, why would they not just strongman you (which I think would leave mastina alive?).

1: That would require they HAVE a strongman which they most likely do not.
2: That would only result in my mislynch if I was supposed to protect who they strongman killed; if I wasn't ever supposed to protect who they kill, it is a waste.
3: Even if they do strongman kill who I am meant to protect...sure I eat the mislynch immediately...and in doing so, reveal that scum have that strongman. A fact they may wish to not reveal.

Why don’t you think scum!titus can do this? Why wouldn’t she take a stance this hard on scumbuddy mastina?

Well for a start Titus has been scum with me in like five games and in every single one of them she bussed me? No joke, every time we've been on the same scumteam, she wanted to push for my lynch.

Also there's the fact that Titus doesn't play this way as scum even remotely.

From all the possible scum, why would Pine use ME lol

I mean I know you read all my posts but since it was from early D1 I understand if you've forgotten; I already gave the reason why he would for you.

That having been said--while that post remains true for why Pine would, I maintain that he DIDN'T. Because you're just town, period.

Are you really trying to out-semantic the mod?

YES.
Exact wording is important. I am fond of exact wording and I will use EVERY mechanical advantage I can find in any given game, pushing things to the absolute limit of my ability and site rules and mod rules. If I could have gotten an answer from Jingle, it would've helped confirm vital aspects of the setup (and by proxy, also helped to establish me as conftown).

There's no reason to not try and every reason to try. Zero risk to playing the semantics game, potential for INCREDIBLY huge reward. It didn't pan out THIS time because Jingle shut my effort down (his interpretation is bullshit by the way but OH WELL CAN'T REALLY CHALLENGE IT--well, I could, but it's more like "I can't think of HOW to challenge it" and until such a time as I CAN figure out a way to challenge it I have no choice but to let it slide), but if it HAD panned out, it need not be explained why it was worth the effort.

Okay.

Calling it a night for now.

Hopefully can finish the catch-up response posts tomorrow and with even greater luck, manage to get the Krazy countercase. (That's admittedly a stretch goal tho; it's...something that'll take such a huge block of time that I'm not sure I can do it tomorrow even though I REALLY want to.)

Sorry I couldn't respond to everything tonight; there's still stuff that I need to respond to, and also stuff that I need to read in greater detail that I either missed or skimmed before. (For instance, PB's analysis.)

[mastina]

becauseeeeee she's scum

I lied.

yo the worst.

I addressed stuff to you a lot in my posts. Directly in 9311 and 9313; indirectly via 9303.
I also made other posts/points on this page that are very much worth the read and since you were responding to a post on this page I know for a fact you were at least tangibly aware of my posts on this page.

Don't fucking ignore what I'm saying when you're fucking calling me scum.

[Menalque]

mastina if you're TRing me and PB p hard then can you join us on PP for the meantime seeing as you've said you'd be happy to vote there and we kinda need votes

[Menalque]

like I get it if you wanna post a counter case for Krazy later I'll read it and think about voting him for today instead, but rn I want more votes on PP

[Pine]

Ooooh, desperate!mastina walls! I love not reading those!