Open 769: Venrob's PYP X/Y (Town Wins)

[Luca Blight]

How do I know it isn’t a lie? And even if it’s truthful, harmless setup spec is more ‘convenient’ for scum than Town.

[Sirfetchd]

So you argue that the tow move is to just shutup and not contribute to discussion at all because you're in over your head?

Bc at the moment you look like you're going to punish both sides of action bc you think they were lying in a post that is likely one of the most truthful posts of the thread so far.

This looks like a pretty malicious scum move here.

Vote: Luca

[Luca Blight]

Why is it most likely one of the most truthful posts in the thread so far?

And as I said I also haven’t digested the setup myself, but I don’t feel the need to indulge in such discussion when I can find out more information on the wiki. And as I said already, it wasn’t the initial ‘I don’t understand the setup’ which I found scummy, it was the ‘what would Scum do’ which pinged me.

[Sirfetchd]

Who has reason to lie about not understanding. Meanwhile there are heaps of reasons to lie about what roles you took or what you think about draft order. I feel like burden of proof here is on you to show how and why someone would lie about it.

I think if anything trying to be a part of the discussion to help get info on the table even though you aren't feeling it to be a very town move. If you accept that, as you seem to, then you can't really take an opinion after that as scummy bc they are trying to be helpful even if they are misguided bc maybe it helps in long run.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So last open that I played was haunted village. Vork setup specced way hard, I townread him for it, and turns out he was scum. I'm leaning something smart scum for it this time, because after last game it's a way to get low hanging town points in the early RVS stages.

I like Xayah for turning away from setup spec.

Townlean on Xayah
Scumlean on Skitt for the push w/o vote, and S_S for all that setup spec.

I know others were doing it, but s_s stuck out there.

[Luca Blight]

There is no burden of proof on me for a couple of reasons: 1) I’m not saying Nom is definitely lying, I’m saying that there’s nothing to say she isn’t lying. 2) she could be scum regardless of whether she is lying.

Why would Scum lie about not understanding? Because in such a setup where scum can secretly discuss it amongst themselves and Town can’t, it appears more townie and innocent to not understand. Someone, maybe it was Nom I can’t remember, even suggested this possibility later on.

I don’t feel like ‘getting info on the table’ in terms of setup spec is helpful. I feel is allows scum a safe avenue into the game. It’s not like Nom is a newbie, there’s no reason to be so trusting of her already.

[Luca Blight]

Late to the party, but this is why I chose a number other than 1. I didn't even know what numbers were considered draft numbers.

Here's a theory:
Do you think that scums were more likely to understand that rule? They had a PT, they probably had a talk before choosing and they probably asked what the numbers meant since it's easier to ask that in a PT, rather than send a message to the mod, correct?

That means that people that make a nonsensical choice in terms of numbers have more chances to be town, while the people that have optimized numbers have more chances to be scum. That is unless scums are one step ahead, but yeah. That seems like a decent theory in my mind.

This is the post that pinged me. She’s suggesting scum more likely to understand the setup after having said herself that she doesn’t understand the setup. This would give her clear motive to lie about her lack of understanding, so the question remains: why are you trusting her so implicitly?

[Sirfetchd]

My main issue is that you are arguing that if nom is telling the truth then they should have shut up and lurked.

Which is the completely wrong thing to do. If nom really wanted a safe way in to the game by setup speccing, that's what would have happened, no?

[Sirfetchd]

Late to the party, but this is why I chose a number other than 1. I didn't even know what numbers were considered draft numbers.

Here's a theory:
Do you think that scums were more likely to understand that rule? They had a PT, they probably had a talk before choosing and they probably asked what the numbers meant since it's easier to ask that in a PT, rather than send a message to the mod, correct?

That means that people that make a nonsensical choice in terms of numbers have more chances to be town, while the people that have optimized numbers have more chances to be scum. That is unless scums are one step ahead, but yeah. That seems like a decent theory in my mind.

This is the post that pinged me. She’s suggesting scum more likely to understand the setup after having said herself that she doesn’t understand the setup. This would give her clear motive to lie about her lack of understanding, so the question remains: why are you trusting her so implicitly?

I am trusting her because I read this as super town. I have a fundamental issue with you setting up someone as doing a scummy act when doing the opposite would have been seen as more scummy.

[Luca Blight]

My main issue is that you are arguing that if nom is telling the truth then they should have shut up and lurked.

Which is the completely wrong thing to do. If nom really wanted a safe way in to the game by setup speccing, that's what would have happened, no?

Once again, it wasn’t her initial comment that I found scummy. It was a comment that could have come from either alignment. She could have been lying, she could have been truthful, I don’t know. Not discussing the setup doesn’t mean she would have had to lurk unless she discussed it though, as I am myself proving.

I still don’t get why you trust her so deeply. Is she incapable of lying about such a thing as scum?

[Something_Smart]

I know others were doing it, but s_s stuck out there.

Wouldn't scum try not to stick out?

[Sirfetchd]

My main issue is that you are arguing that if nom is telling the truth then they should have shut up and lurked.

Which is the completely wrong thing to do. If nom really wanted a safe way in to the game by setup speccing, that's what would have happened, no?

Once again, it wasn’t her initial comment that I found scummy. It was a comment that could have come from either alignment. She could have been lying, she could have been truthful, I don’t know. Not discussing the setup doesn’t mean she would have had to lurk unless she discussed it though, as I am myself proving.

I still don’t get why you trust her so deeply. Is she incapable of lying about such a thing as scum?

I am defending bc you have convinced me you are scum and I am calling you out for backing nom in to a corner.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I know others were doing it, but s_s stuck out there.

Wouldn't scum try not to stick out?

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

[Sujimichi]

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

This comes across as more of a Mafiascum Buzzword dictionary than an actual point.

If speculating on the setup is not indicative of alignment (and is easily called out as such), then why would scum stick their neck out for "easy town points" that are easily called out as not alignment indicative (and thus not easy town points) so that they can further their objective of [there actually isn't a definition of deepwolf that I can find so I assume it means scum who is universally townread] when it doesn't actually further that objective at all?

[Sirfetchd]

wtf is a deepwolf?

[Kerset]

My main issue is that you are arguing that if nom is telling the truth then they should have shut up and lurked.

Which is the completely wrong thing to do. If nom really wanted a safe way in to the game by setup speccing, that's what would have happened, no?

Once again, it wasn’t her initial comment that I found scummy. It was a comment that could have come from either alignment. She could have been lying, she could have been truthful, I don’t know. Not discussing the setup doesn’t mean she would have had to lurk unless she discussed it though, as I am myself proving.

I still don’t get why you trust her so deeply. Is she incapable of lying about such a thing as scum?

I am defending bc you have convinced me you are scum and I am calling you out for backing nom in to a corner.

Why do you scumread Luna for posting? Your main argument is that scum is more likely to lurk, so shouldn't this apply to Luna as well? The safe way for Luna would be not voting nomnomnom at all.

[Something_Smart]

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

Is that a thing people do?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

This comes across as more of a Mafiascum Buzzword dictionary than an actual point.

If speculating on the setup is not indicative of alignment (and is easily called out as such), then why would scum stick their neck out for "easy town points" that are easily called out as not alignment indicative (and thus not easy town points) so that they can further their objective of [there actually isn't a definition of deepwolf that I can find so I assume it means scum who is universally townread] when it doesn't actually further that objective at all?

Sorry about the jargon. As for your substantive point, in my last open, I just saw setup spec get townread. The idea is that scum have to know something about the setup because in the last game, they picked their powers after knowing what town's powers were. Here they were able.to coordinate draft and picks. So it was perceived as helpful to town to speculate as to what roles may be in the game and how to counter scum's choices. The same motivations apply here. So it's not seen as not alignment indicative. It's generally an easy way to score town points, and for that reason, I see it as kinda scummy. I dont think i would have if I didnt just see a scum team ride early setup spec for town points in my last game. And honestly, s_s was in that game and saw it happen. Now he replaced out and was viged before LYLO, but I dont know why hes acting like I'm way off here. You telling me Vork didnt stick out last game with the setup spec?

Your understanding of deepwolf is what I meant.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

Is that a thing people do?

Vork literally did this in Haunted Village. You were in that game. I know you replaced in after all the early setup spec, but yeah, it happened.

[Sujimichi]

But setup spec is something that Something_Smart apparently does as either alignment?

So, here's what I'm going to do given that I'm seeing conflicting viewpoints and information. I don't care about setup spec or Haunted Village or whatever other game something happened in. I'm going to care about what happens here, becuase otherwise I think I'm just going to end up confused.

[Sujimichi]

Glancing through the thread I don’t feel great about Skitter either. I think frost is Town atm. Flubber seems Town as well. Null on everyone else atm.

Oh yeah, slight scumread on Suj as well.

Can you provide reasons for any of these statements (outside your null statements)? Why do you feel/think this way?

[skitter30]

Hence my unvote

What's the problem here?

Noting that i dont find your thought process particularly believable

You feel ~pricklier~ than normal

[skitter30]

Ok, what was your reasoning?

I'd rather not discuss it overtly at the moment, though I think it should be somewhat easily inferred. Happy to discuss a bit further down the road.

Unless you were trying to reaction test him in some way, i'm not sure what you were going for there

If it was a reaction test, i dont think it was a very successful one

One tell that i've been keeping an eye on is how scum enter the thread - i find that if they havent posted before the game has started to move out of rvs, scum will sometimes pop in with a naked vote and/or small genetic greeting. It's a p decent tell, and it's netted me scum in the past. This post kinda fit the bill

[skitter30]

So i am going to come after you for that reasoning, to make it sure actually, like, exists

[Sujimichi]

Unless you were trying to reaction test him in some way, i'm not sure what you were going for there

It was actually to see how the wagon built as he was the largest (though not by a large amount, which was part of the draw) at the time. That ultimately did not work out, so I don't mind disclosing at this point.