Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

[skitter30]

Either way, bailey's dying declaration is not the crux of my read,

more like a convenient detail that I'm choosing to incorporate into my narrative.

a) can you, like, quote this declaration
b) i find the bolded to scummy

[skitter30]

My final verdict on this: If this is town!skitter, I would be very dissapointed. The more likely option is that this is scum!skitter.

well you've succeeded in pissing me off

[skitter30]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

well, kinda, he's trying to scare you into paranoia lynching me

[DrDolittle]

being confused is a reason to TR zen but a reason to scumread bailey? I don't think this makes sense.

thank you tictac for the misrep.

these two situations are completely different and you know it. One is unprompted day 1 mistake, on something scum should be focused on which is votes and lynches.
the second is mistake under pressure, typically involving throwing votes around wildly hoping something sticks, which is a very scummy endeavor.

[DrDolittle]

I defended zen because his posts pinged me as town during my catchup. Although I didn't really like his eod posts, and today's skirting around.

@Zen

what's your read on the game state and who is scum?

I only glanced at vork vs skitter, but I'll give it another in depth read later. I'm really not sure how to think about it since I've never seen vork so aggresive and im scared.

But I'm trying to figure out how does january play a role in all this. I don't see vork's (jan, skit) pair, both independently from jan and the partnership doesn't make sense. Plus 734 is very town.

[Zenith]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

well, kinda, he's trying to scare you into paranoia lynching me

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

Correct
Excellent

I'm so glad we're on the same page.

There are many people who brag about such abilities/skills (particularly in their sigs), but IMHO skitter is someone who's probably actually legitimately deserved phrases like these thrown her way

If reading skitter is futile, then my options seem to be: ignore her, vote her, or sheep her.

Based on all the above, it seems like I can choose to hope skitter is town, or fear that she's scum. If that's the case, the former sounds preferable.

VOTE: Vork

What do you guys do when you get stuck, having difficulty forming decent reads?

I give you the 3 "sh"s
Whenever I'm stuck in a game, I either shitpost, sheep, or shut up and pray night actions make the game easier

Spoiler: Hid animated gifs --P

[skitter30]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

Correct
Excellent

I'm so glad we're on the same page.

There are many people who brag about such abilities/skills (particularly in their sigs), but IMHO skitter is someone who's probably actually legitimately deserved phrases like these thrown her way

oh i forgot to respond to this one
if i'm good enough that you're fearmongering me like this, give me enough credit to play intelligently and not just do dumb things for the lols, ty

[skitter30]

that gif is ... incredibly disturbing

[january]

January, why am i scum?

well basically POE + a lack of towntelling imo

suspicious clear
i tr tictac
mild tr on zenith
dunno about dolittle
and i see it as there's 1 maf between you and vork
- i don't

think

vork would be bold enough to be accusing me of bussing and distancing while he's doing the same thing - but if that's actually the case then voting you is fine anyways

and i expected you to towntell earlier but i just... don't feel like you've done anything of note or any significant towny-ness

although right now vork is just flat out imagining stuff...
i think it's just that he genuinely believes it though bc i don't see mafia wanting me lynched so bad that they just make stuff up

[january]

Plus 734 is very town.

is that really my towniest post to you... lol

[january]

i like 715 so i'm basically gonna say that there is 0 chance that tictac is maf

and if he is then i'll just say well played and maf deserves the win

@tictac whos your other maf read with zenith then? doc?

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.02

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

Vorkuta

(2): skitter30, Zenith

skitter30

(2): Vorkuta, january

Zenith

(1): tictac

Not Voting

(2): DrDolittle, Suspicious

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-05 07:45:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[skitter30]

and i see it as there's 1 maf between you and vork

?
There's two scum ...

[skitter30]

although right now vork is just flat out imagining stuff...
i think it's just that he genuinely believes it though bc i don't see mafia wanting me lynched so bad that they just make stuff up

He does, in fact, make stuff up as scum sometimes, i've played a game with him where he did just that

[skitter30]

Subject: Mini Normal 2080 ft. My Cats [Game Over]

This miller push is gross, Vorkuta is making up reasons to continue pushing this and also grandstanding about how confident he should be in this. Nero Cain's play is gross, would vote there too.

VOTE: Vorkuta

^ i can find more quotes supporting this but i had to reread the first few pages of this game, it's been a few months

Vork was scum here

[skitter30]

He's doing the same thing here, using overinflated rhetoric and making up stuff to push me

[skitter30]

Oh i even have a bunch of relevant quotes from game, but they're hard to pull on a phone (just spent a while trying before giving up) so i'll get them when i'm on a pc in a bit

[Vorkuta]

a) can you, like, quote this declaration

Spoiler:

VOTE: january
Trial by fire works best IMHO

I don't really trust the wagon on January right now. Vork's reason is how badly Jan reacted to her own wagon. Shouldn't town be scared of being voted off D1? Shitty way to end a game so fast. Maf and Town should both be scared of being lynched, and Zenith's reason...

Ok..
VOTE: january

Is because Jan didn't want people voting CJ because he didn't do anything particularly scummy?
Suspicious's reason is...

VOTE: january

How am I doing, chief?

Sounds like a frustration/reaction post. Reaction from Jan tunneling Jamelia, and frusteration after Jan called him dense. The only valid reason I see is from the constant tunneling.
and from:

good for you! you guessed my reads congrats!

Like, come on. Your reads aren't super obvious.

As for Jam...

this is the biggest point for me.

What if he stayed on Zenith? Would that earn him any town points? Why are you only holding Jam accountable for this? Seemed like a "Woah wait, I want a little more information first" unvote.

if jamelia thought tictac was mafia they would have said that explicitly

i’m saying jamelia is scum because they townread tictac for no reason.

But people can have null reads. Especially since the conversation has been mostly revolved around two wagons.

Because they're the towniest person in this game rn ...

Why is Jan the towniest?

I'm thinking Skitter right now.

Mostly from 480

1. Sus definitely wasn't defending him. and he's right, Zenith would have a scum buddy to defend him, and be vocal about it. The fact that no one really cared was discerning.
2. Town reading Jan for no reason I can find.

Voting him back seems a bit ridiculous.

The reasons you mention are: 315, 326,469 which are mostly "I think Jan is town.".

VOTE: skitter30

&

Spoiler:

Alright, well, my next choice after everyone would probably be Vork.

Vork held on and voted Jan 61
When asked why

-I can't be bothered to comb through your ISO, find a quote which pings you as vulnerable for me, and proceed to have a back-and-forth. Suffice to say your opening (hi, I'm new, please be nice) and the next few afterwards left that impression on me and that's it.

And held on for the sake of pressure until 573.

Then, to go from:

gut/tone- his walls feel the most genuine in terms of "getting to the bottom of things" while others have more of a "defensive/agenda-driven" approach
also he ticked off things in my "things to look for in town" checklists

To

*sighs*
I can buy it knowing the mason pair
VOTE: bailey

Is a pretty sharp contrast. It sounds like Vork wants to lynch for the sake of lynching, instead of lynching for scum. This was before I made the vote on Suspicious.

Again:

I'd rather bite my tongue today and cooperate with a lynch than keep stonewalling and insisting that it's someone that doesn't have a chance of being run up in a day.

Welp, that's my only defense. Plus I was trying to NOT get the PRs from voted out, but that was before they claimed so idk how much merit that holds. I'd rather have Skitter voted out, but that ain't happening. I'll be off for the next few hours so whatever happens, will happen. I'll try to reply mobile if this sparks anything.

VOTE: Vork

His last 2 posts of any "relevance".
The one in my direction was made pretty much at the point when the wagon on him was going through and is all but OMGUS in nature.
The one towards skitter has... potential.
But I reiterate- "cherry on top", not "actual cake"

He does, in fact, make stuff up as scum sometimes

Right

using overinflated rhetoric

-That's NAI of me- whenever I'm efforting I tend to get colorful with my wordchoice
-Ssure. Let's ignore the main point, not attack the actual ARGUMENT, but focus on my rhetoric
That's a surefire way to get a fair and proper discussion going.

if i'm good enough that you're fearmongering me like this, give me enough credit to play intelligently and not just do dumb things for the lols, ty

Please keep on ignoring the point of "January made the play and skitter went 'meh' "
It really convinces my read on you

/s

Oh i even have a bunch of relevant quotes from game

*cracks knuckles*
Time to revisit TwofoldC9++ and EMM again for me to demonstrate that you 'demanding scumPT screenshots levels of evidence' is your way of shutting down arguments and scumplay.
Let's completely flood this gamethread with cherrypicked and out-of-context quotes from OTHER games.
This ought to be a doozy.

[Vorkuta]

give me enough credit to play intelligently

It's funny because you're treating me like a 1-trick-pony with a black-and-white townrange and scumrange.

[Vorkuta]

well you've succeeded in pissing me off

ok this would completely undermine my case

But now I'm thinking that I'll be quite butthurt if scum!skitter would resort to such means

[skitter30]

-Ssure. Let's ignore the main point, not attack the actual ARGUMENT, but focus on my rhetoric
That's a surefire way to get a fair and proper discussion going.

I have been attacking your argument, and your methof of delivering it is scummy too

[skitter30]

Please keep on ignoring the point of "January made the play and skitter went 'meh' "
It really convinces my read on you /s

I dont play like that, for the most part

[skitter30]

Time to revisit TwofoldC9++ and EMM again for me to demonstrate that you 'demanding scumPT screenshots levels of evidence' is your way of shutting down arguments and scumplay.

?
I dont know what you're talking about
I dont know what 'demanding scum pt screenshot levels of evidence' means exactly, or how i'm meant to be doing that

I dont know why you think i'm cherry-picking or taking things out of context, your cinnamon push in cats (wherein i accused you of making stuff up and grandstanding) was a major reason why i scumread you there day1

And i should just ignore meta, you're suggesting?
So when january goes 'i dont think scum vork makes stuff up to push a lynch' and i have substantial evidence to the contrary i should just ignore that?

[tictac]

"hey now that I've gotten a really cool scum partner can we PLEASE not lynche her? kthnx"

pmuch zero actual danger on skitt slot at the time.

@tictac i had that doc/zen theory for a lot of day1 as well but i think zenith eod was townie

u mean the revere reads thing?
I dunno how he's exploring that when I'm not gonna be lynched and am currently sleeping so can't react to it.

*sighs*
I'm pretty sure it was self-implied, but fine
It's concerning because it doesn't have (or at least I can't find) the markings/intentions of "town-solvey" skitter.

Wasn't implied for me.

Needing a REASON for a play?

yes

Now for the meaty stuff, which is what I was hoping for
I don't like how the crux of your defense is "a mechanically optimal or otherwise perfect player wouldn't do any of the things" and how you're shifting the definitions. I am presenting a very plausible scenario, backed up with bits of evidence, slightly liberal assumptions, and my own personal experience.

Whereas you're basically demanding "screenshots of their scumPT" levels of evidence necessary for my points to have any validity in your eyes.
Which is a scum!skitter play

Inflated? yes, but this point does resonate with me. ref 352.
Skitt: if this is something ya been accused of as town, a link would be appreciated.

I mean who is october and september? Are we just referring to january as any other month for some reason? Id's it some kind of weird code?

^this doesn't read as real confusion to me

And to top it all off, I voted for long night to give more recovery time, but I'm only slightly better.. I feel kinda useless here. Probably need to re-read the game and ISO's, but I get the feeling that it won't help ease my general confusion.

^I actually do like this bit.

I pretty much had my eyes on skitter the whole time. Sure I may have taken narrative liberties to provoke skitter, but now I have a much more solid read on her as a result, and the resulting discourse helped me EVOLVE my read on her (I'm sorry I dragged december's name through the mud but I'm actually not sorry) and actually find concrete points that I dislike.

cool

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

Well scum-skitt is scary, but there is no player ever who can't be POE'd.
+ I think vork might have an actual point w his 'meaty stuff'

living townies tend not to listen to dead townies' reads, i find. as you pointed out, if anything, they might listen to a townie who got nk'd - after all, why did scum nk them?

i don't find that people listen to a lynched townie's reads that often

agree here.

these two situations are completely different and you know it. One is unprompted day 1 mistake, on something scum should be focused on which is votes and lynches.
the second is mistake under pressure, typically involving throwing votes around wildly hoping something sticks, which is a very scummy endeavor.

I don't know that at all.
I think ya describing a scum-behavior that doesn't actually happen. Especially newbscum more likely to shut down rather than throw associative tells around.
Dunno how scum!Bail would think a vote might stick to a conftown?
Also Bailey did make unprompted mistakes w the votecount also and I pointed it out, but that a little beside the point.

@tictac whos your other maf read with zenith then? doc?

I think so, yea.
vork is swaying me a bit w that one point tho, even if the association w you was bull (and he pmuch admitted it was)

I dont know what 'demanding scum pt screenshot levels of evidence' means exactly, or how i'm meant to be doing that

demanding proof vs looking for evidence that the opinion is arrived at in a natural way.
I actually don't see ya doing that w vork, but I do think ya did that w my Jam-push.

sry for wall. had i more time I would have made it more readable.

[Vorkuta]

I have been attacking your argument, and your methof of delivering it is scummy too

As of recent your focus has shifted towards my delivery, not my core points.

I dont play like that, for the most part

Once again- it's not "directly" your play, but your play "by proxy" which I'm bringing into question.

I dont know what you're talking about

*Disclaimer: the following below is my personal read, based on my experience, and impressions (based on a grand total of 2 completed games 'against' scum!skitter, 1 completed game with IC!skitter, and 1 game against town/skitter)" The following theory is a "work-in-progress" and is undergoing revisions and constantly evolving. It could be BS. Or it could be something. I'd like it to be something.
This has to be said because I foresee myself having to quote this in the near future.

I think one of the ways scum!skitter plays is by shutting down lines of questioning.
Town!skitter is much more openminded, willing to make the logical assumptions/leaps to see where a train of thought would lead for the sake of scumhunting- ie "talk to me more about XXX", and deals with disagreements pleasantly in the form of "I'm not sure that...." or "I don't think...."
Scum!skitter is more interested in redirecting the gameflow and SUBTLY shutting down uncomfortable lines of inquiry and one of the more effective ways I've seen her do it is by inflating the level of proof/evidence necessary for her to acknowledge a claim to a level that is much higher than what town!skitter would require to join along on the journey.
This distinction is what I mean when I say that skitter is shutting down my points/arguments by demanding that I do so much legwork to demonstrate the validity of my case, that it's almost akin to "taking screenshots of the scumPT to demonstrate that this is in fact what's going on". Plus I like the phrasing. It's colorful

I dont know why you think i'm cherry-picking or taking things out of context

I'm preempting something.
We could both go down the rabbit hole of digging choice quotes from random games to prove our points (you for "scum!vork hallucinates stuff up" and me for "scum!skitter demands too much proofs").
We could. It might even be fun to reminisce

The problem with doing that would be
-we clog up this thread
-every quote we come up with will presented all on its own "as is" without the relevant gamestate information
LIKE your Dunn quote just now.
I could dig up the ~5 quotes from that game where I explicitly

and quite successfully IMHO

shut down that line of nonsense from dunn and the relevant back-and-forth necessary to undestand what's up.
I could also waste even more time trying to recall my thought process as I was making said miller push and clearly explain why and how "that 1 miller push I did in that game" is different from "this skitter push I'm doing right now".

Then we'd spiral into cherrypicking, "he-said, she-said", potential gaslighting, "no it happened like THIS!" and all that good stuff.

And i should just ignore meta, you're suggesting?

Aha- double standards time
If you want me to "give you credit" you're going to have to go both ways and acknowledge that my playbook isn't black and white.
Furthermore I could bring up quite a few cases where I "hallucinate things up" as town as well.

i have substantial evidence to the contrary i should just ignore that?

- your evidence is going to be cherrypicked, deprived of context, BS, outdated, invalid, and blah blah blah (see ^)
- defending/explaining myself (as would be fair) would be detrimental to gamestate (see ^)
- your evidence probably will have the underlying assumption that I haven't evolved as a scum player, or never pull the same moves as town (see ^)