Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Celestial Coordinates]

Wow its almost like it wasn’t the first time that it happened that maybe she’s just a manipulative person that AtEs because they want to exploit decent empathetic human beings (or as to put it into shoshin’s viewpoint, suckers)

Wow, you really don’t like her. I didn’t like what she did in this game but I think this is a little over the top.

[RadiantCowbells]

Check it discord

[Celestial Coordinates]

The issue isn't the AtE it's the rulebreaking

I agree. I really hated the whole angle shooting about how she doesn’t confirm her role pm as scum. That’s straight up for ick - irrespective of alignment.

[Celestial Coordinates]

VOTE: Shoshin

People scumleaning me literally have no idea to read me. Let me teach you.

Is Oversoul lurking?
If yes, scum.
If no, town.

This concludes our lesson.

Shoshin is conftown in my eyes.

Also Shoshin, congratulations on Peace Corps! That’s amazing.
I applied but I did not get in

Says the person blaming me for the loss when I was calling Shoshin scum btw.

Damn right. You didn’t vote her slot when it counted most. I don’t know why you’re trying so hard to defend a game you don’t care about when it’s not even going on your game record. hitoshrug

You’re being really unfair to RC.

[Bitmap]

Every time I see people shitting more and more on RC, it makes me want to support him because I love supporting an underdog.

[northsidegal]

is rc the underdog or is rc the overdog and everyone roots for the underdog against him

[RadiantCowbells]

bark bark

everyone agrees I'm a dog

[bitbringer]

is rc the underdog or is rc the overdog and everyone roots for the underdog against him

I still think RC is an underdog due to how everyone reacts to him and I'm like "yo wassup bois".

[bitbringer]

bark bark

everyone agrees I'm a dog

ur a fuckin seal

-fire

[GuyInFreezer]

I'm sure seal barks too

[RadiantCowbells]

What sound does a seal make

[Bitmap]

What sound does a seal make

dunno but I know the sounds an Radiant Seal makes

"I'm better than all of you"
"I'm going to get mislynched yet again"
"Your reads are shit"
"I caught all the scum Day 1"
"You're confirmed scum"

[RadiantCowbells]

hmm

[Bitmap]

idk i think RC is funny but that might be due to the way I view things

I also love lalafells.

[Alisae]

Wow its almost like it wasn’t the first time that it happened that maybe she’s just a manipulative person that AtEs because they want to exploit decent empathetic human beings (or as to put it into shoshin’s viewpoint, suckers)

Wow, you really don’t like her. I didn’t like what she did in this game but I think this is a little over the top.

I mean
that shit ruins games
and its a game
at the end of the day, you're supposed to be having fun, and I don't think throwing a pity party and snowing everyone with AtE is super fun

[Nancy Drew 39]

Every time I see people shitting more and more on RC, it makes me want to support him because I love supporting an underdog.

is rc the underseal is rc the overseal and everyone roots for the underseal against him

FIFY

[Nancy Drew 39]

Wow its almost like it wasn’t the first time that it happened that maybe she’s just a manipulative person that AtEs because they want to exploit decent empathetic human beings (or as to put it into shoshin’s viewpoint, suckers)

Wow, you really don’t like her. I didn’t like what she did in this game but I think this is a little over the top.

I mean
that shit ruins games
and its a game
at the end of the day, you're supposed to be having fun, and I don't think throwing a pity party and snowing everyone with AtE is super fun

No I definitely agree with this, perhaps I just misunderstood your post - suggesting she was a manipulative person in general.

[Kagami]

Hiya Folks, I see the game is over. I haven't really read much of what happened during the game, but it looks like there are lots of interesting post-game things here. Thanks for running the game flawlessly, nsg, and I'm sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill my replacement responsibilities (in retrospect, I'd likely have had to bail in some capacity later even if things hadn't happened earlier than expected, but w/e).

Great job Volpe, by all accounts you played a great scum-game and that shouldn't be overshadowed by the shoshin rubbish.

I don't think the Shoshin thing is any more egregious than a lot of behavior that is largely considered par for the course. A lot of the anger in that direction seems to have shown up only ~after~ it was revealed that her slot is Mafia, which doesn't seem consistent with a principled stance on the transgression, and sounds more like sheer frustration at the loss. I personally think this and a great number of other common behaviors should be punished more severely, but that just isn't how the rules are enforced.

I would like to some things re: setup. In general, I'm very opinionated about setups and good game design; feel free to ignore the following.

Firstly, this is quite scum-sided, and I think it's pretty hard to argue otherwise. The EV is around 28% and would be ~42% even if the setup were 3v12. Generally, scum over-perform in mountainous, which makes this worse. On top of that, Town has to coordinate all baton passes (as they did) to even get those odds; failure to do so leans things more scum-ward. Normally, I think the balance of a setup is less of a problem than swinginess, but in this case, I feel like it's a bit extreme.

The central mechanic of the baton seems like it could use some adjustment, as three elements strike me as highly anti-fun.
1) It's clearly optimal to coordinate all the passes, which causes the passing phase itself to be a waste of time.
2) It will generally lead to contention between power-players who want to dictate all passes and other players who want to "have fun" or play the mechanic as intended.
3) It solidifies a "town leader" in a vanilla game, which will cause non-leaders to feel that they don't have much impact on the game's events.

Some setup ideas floating in my head that you might consider:
-3 mafia should be enough unless town becomes much, much stronger
-I feel like BP is just tacked on to make the baton vote more meaningful, not because it's expected to make the game better. Removing it resolves the permanent leader problem too.
-I'm not entirely sure there needs to be a baton vote at all, it seems somewhat inelegant. Maybe Day begins immediately with passing, starting with the NKed player and no pass on D1?
-The consequence for being left out is currently the same as being directly lynched, also seems inelegant. Maybe the pass decides gladiators who are then eligible for the lynch vote?
-If run like it currently is, I feel like there should be some way the mafia can muck with the pass (as I had mentioned in the maf PT).

[Ankamius]

Congratulations and thank you for replacing in, kagami

[Oversoul]

What would happen if in 3P LyLo instead of the baton pass mechanic going away it stays. Does that change the EV, Kagami? I realize there is no real way to actually force a game to 3P LyLo organically (at least not that I thought of), but I imagine it improves the EV?

[Ankamius]

That sounds like a 3p lylo where people vote for a town read instead of a scumread for a win unless I'm missing something

[Ankamius]

Subject: Baton Pass | Mafia Hideout

Her scum hunting method is seeing every slot do their own thing and how the game state is flowing along that.

One person holding so much control over the game state is the complete opposite of a game Ank would feel engaged in.

Oh shit someone gets it

Its not entirely correct but this is impressively close

[northsidegal]

What would happen if in 3P LyLo instead of the baton pass mechanic going away it stays. Does that change the EV, Kagami? I realize there is no real way to actually force a game to 3P LyLo organically (at least not that I thought of), but I imagine it improves the EV?

it turns it from 33% to 66% given that if you pick a townie then there are immediately two people left out who get lynched

so when you're lynching you have to hit the one scum out of three but if you had to pick a baton holder you would just have to pick one of the two townies out of three

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think the Shoshin thing is any more egregious than a lot of behavior that is largely considered par for the course. A lot of the anger in that direction seems to have shown up only ~after~ it was revealed that her slot is Mafia, which doesn't seem consistent with a principled stance on the transgression, and sounds more like sheer frustration at the loss. I personally think this and a great number of other common behaviors should be punished more severely, but that just isn't how the rules are enforced.

There was a specific rule change outlawing what Shoshin did that happened this year.

The issue isn't the attempted townspew it's doing it via threatened replace out

[northsidegal]

i largely agree with kagami's analysis regarding the setup, although i'd add that i was completely alright running a scumsided game and i think i was proven justified in doing so. despite the outcome, the game

did

come down to (from a spectator's point of view) a very close 3 person lylo, with the scumteam halved in the very first elimination.