Mainstream Mafia II: D&D Edition [FIN]

[Formerfish]

Think of Lord of the Flies. Someone or something needs to be in charge, theres no way around that. Even if everyone gets one vote you still have to vote and someone has to pick what you vote on and what you dont.

Well Lord of the Flies is predicated on a particular value system pre-existing upon them being thrust into a survival situation. A completely different value system in a situation where people aren’t struggling to meet their basic material needs could produce an entirely different result.

It fits though because communism was usually what took over after revolutions. When kings and czars started to get deposed communism rose because it attracted the bases and the disenfranchised at the expense of the rich. Different things get taken over by the state, and then it breeds nepotism and turns into authoritarian rule, leading to states like North Korea.

[Creature]

Do you support socialism?

I'm more into freedom, but even if there were no government socialism, socialism would be enforced through other means

[Formerfish]

Do you support socialism?

We effectively already live in a socialist society anyways. All the services that we get for our taxes like police and fire, trash pickup, roads and bridges being built, its all paid for by our taxes and are socialist policies and ideals.

[Menalque]

The fact that classes very clearly still existed in the USSR is enough to demonstrate that it wasn’t actual communism

I think the way communism is designed makes it guaranteed to shift to authoritarianism

Communism and authoritarianism are literally contradictory tho, how can you have authoritarianism in a classless society?

A classless society is open to the emergence of new classes

How is this gonna happen under communism?

Like you’re presupposing that we enter communism with t same values systems we have operating at the moment. But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust. Why would that value system still be dominant by the time a transition to full communism was achieved?

[Menalque]

Do you support socialism?

Hard yes.

[Menalque]

Do you support socialism?

We effectively already live in a socialist society anyways. All the services that we get for our taxes like police and fire, trash pickup, roads and bridges being built, its all paid for by our taxes and are socialist policies and ideals.

Fam that’s not socialism.

[Creature]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

[Formerfish]

Do you support socialism?

We effectively already live in a socialist society anyways. All the services that we get for our taxes like police and fire, trash pickup, roads and bridges being built, its all paid for by our taxes and are socialist policies and ideals.

Fam that’s not socialism.

Yes it is, just like health care and free college would be forms of socialist programs funded by the state and taxes.

[Menalque]

Like basically every capitalist society has taxes and public services of some sort.

[Creature]

People won't cease to be greedy regardless of the whatever system is operating

They will just find different ways to get what they want

[Formerfish]

Like basically every capitalist society has taxes and public services of some sort.

I agree, and those are socialist ideals and policies. It depends on what part of the scale you are on.

[Creature]

Capitalism and socialism can be pretty confusing

Like, at what point a society ceases to be capitalism and becomes socialist? Which % of tax is it?

[Menalque]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

[Creature]

Likely we live in an economy ran by free market but the state takes one part of it to make their own social programs

[Menalque]

Capitalism and socialism can be pretty confusing

Like, at what point a society ceases to be capitalism and becomes socialist? Which % of tax is it?

It’s not about tax so much as it is about who receives profits and who has decision making power over the use of capital (as expressed in ownership of that capital).

[Creature]

If you remove the free market it's bye bye social programs together

[Donempire]

Do you support socialism?

We effectively already live in a socialist society anyways. All the services that we get for our taxes like police and fire, trash pickup, roads and bridges being built, its all paid for by our taxes and are socialist policies and ideals.

What about healthcare? There are still private hospitals. I think that is the first thing to check if you're socialist or not. Everything else is a given anyway. And i dont know which country doesnt have taxes or doesnt help with trash, if not are they even a country?

[Formerfish]

Likely we live in an economy ran by free market but the state takes one part of it to make their own social programs

This is close, like whats oging on with the Tech community right now.

They grew huge off our backs and have made men multibillionaires while people stuggle to eat and stay healthy. The system is broken and socialism is the attempt to reign it in to still be profitable for people, but not to the point where they literally have more money than they can ever use while people die from fevers.

[Menalque]

Like basically every capitalist society has taxes and public services of some sort.

I agree, and those are socialist ideals and policies. It depends on what part of the scale you are on.

Some socialist policies do not a socialist society make. It’s like you have some socialist policies because they’re literally necessary to make life liveable in societies of millions of people and to keep people sufficiently content with the status quo that they don’t turn to more radical solutions.

[Donempire]

Like basically every capitalist society has taxes and public services of some sort.

I agree, and those are socialist ideals and policies. It depends on what part of the scale you are on.

I dont think that makes you socialist though. Education isnt a necessity for survival, not living in trash is.

[Creature]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

[Menalque]

If you remove the free market it's bye bye social programs together

Why can you not have a relatively free market but where workers are the owners of businesses and therefore receive profits directly?

[Donempire]

Goddammit i kept getting ninjad

[Donempire]

I got ninjad while complaining about it

[Formerfish]

Do you support socialism?

We effectively already live in a socialist society anyways. All the services that we get for our taxes like police and fire, trash pickup, roads and bridges being built, its all paid for by our taxes and are socialist policies and ideals.

What about healthcare? There are still private hospitals. I think that is the first thing to check if you're socialist or not. Everything else is a given anyway. And i dont know which country doesnt have taxes or doesnt help with trash, if not are they even a country?

Thats the thing, if we move to medicare for all then everyone would be covered and the cost would simply be taken out of taxes instead of premiums and copays and costs of medication.

If we move to health care for all, you get the help you need and the hospital bills the government who can negotiate much better deals and can dictate the market because they are it.