Mini Normal 2107 (Game Over)

[Montosh]

VC 1.7

Looker (3):

UltimatePlank, Wake88, alimdia

Wake88 (2):

Saudade, Vorkuta

Saladman27 (2):

Elbirn, Zote the Mighty

UltimatePlank (2):

profii, Saladman27

Elbirn (1):

Elements

Elements (1):

Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

---

Mod Notes:

Saladman27 is V/LA until 11/14

Elements is being prodded

[UltimatePlank]

Right now I think Saudade is town. I don't much care for his minimalistic posting style, but he seems to want to progress the game along and get us away from the pointless discussion that has clogged the past few pages.

I don't see this. Can you point me to a post where he was progressing the game as opposed to spamming the thread? I'm trying to determine whether my distrust of him is based on alignment or personality.

I’m not voting looker mostly based on this post

He seems to be genuinely trying to work Saudade out

If you are trying to work something out, you don’t know, ergo you are town

It’s obviously an early read on a quiet slot so it can change but for now...

Where is the part where he's genuinely trying to figure out Saudade's alignment exactly?

I see Zote having a townread and Looker saying that he isn't sure about that. But where does Looker actually go out of his way to show that he is trying to sort Saudade?

[UltimatePlank]

VC 1.7

Looker (3):

UltimatePlank, Wake88, alimdia

Wake88 (2):

Saudade, Vorkuta

Saladman27 (2):

Elbirn, Zote the Mighty

UltimatePlank (2):

profii, Saladman27

Elbirn (1):

Elements

Elements (1):

Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

---

Mod Notes:

Saladman27 is V/LA until 11/14

Elements is being prodded

I'm very surprised that Elements isn't participating when the town has a lot of divided opinions

[UltimatePlank]

Idk what to make of Vorkuta at this point. Read on them feels kinda stale and I'll have to revisit it but I'd want a lynch from profii/Elements/Looker at this stage.

Profii's reasonings for everything he says are baffling to me, and they don't hold up from one context to another. He doesn't want to wagon Looker, who has maybe one example of showing that they're "unsure" and "unsure = town" (?) in his eyes. But all the other instances of people being unsure about things or showing doubt are not cause for this same thinking?

And his primary reason for voting me seems to have more to do with...the fact that I voted Looker than anything else

[UltimatePlank]

VOTE: profii

Actually this is where I want to vote. Looker's probably a wolf with profii, but profii's actually actively doing wolfy things right now. I think profii is a surefire bet to flip wolf.

[Saladman27]

I think this is mafia flavour not werewolf.

[alimdia]

Ugh the votes are all over the place. Its hard to analyse when people start a 1 vote wagon all over the place.

[profii]

Right now I think Saudade is town. I don't much care for his minimalistic posting style, but he seems to want to progress the game along and get us away from the pointless discussion that has clogged the past few pages.

I don't see this. Can you point me to a post where he was progressing the game as opposed to spamming the thread? I'm trying to determine whether my distrust of him is based on alignment or personality.

I’m not voting looker mostly based on this post

He seems to be genuinely trying to work Saudade out

If you are trying to work something out, you don’t know, ergo you are town

It’s obviously an early read on a quiet slot so it can change but for now...

Where is the part where he's genuinely trying to figure out Saudade's alignment exactly?

I see Zote having a townread and Looker saying that he isn't sure about that. But where does Looker actually go out of his way to show that he is trying to sort Saudade?

I sense we are miscommunicating here somehow.

To me this reads as Zote thinks Saudade is town. the first sentence in #286 is really clear

Then the last sentence in 295 "I'm trying to determine whether my distrust of him is based on alignment or personality." says to me that Looker isn't so sure and is trying to work it out - which is why I made the point about his trying to sort someone, indicates he is town.

I guess the reason I sympathise with Looker is because the first time I played with Saudade he was town but I got really paranoid over his style of play, or his personality you could say...

I haven't actually sorted Saudade in my mind yet for that very reason so that's where I'm up to.

[alimdia]

So you think Looker is town because he is trying to figure out if someone else is town or not.

Which is what most of us here are doing?

[profii]

I'm saying it looks genuine... Scum dont have to because they already know.

It's a read caveated by the fact he hasn't posted much and it's page 18 but I feel ok for now

[Looker]

Lack of protest of the wake wagon falling down is noted. Any thoughts from anyone?

I feel it was opportunistic scum, honestly. When people don't have to give reasoning, anybody can jump on a wagon.

Can someone TL;DR key points the wagon on looker?
I've caught up but I still don't get it

It's pretty much

the post below

.

Off you go then start the scumhunt

You've mentioned Looker a couple times and have casted some suspicion towards him, but I was hoping you could be more specific. Also,

I don't like how little he's contributed to this game, and I think putting some pressure on him is merited.

VOTE: Looker

Why would i bother regurgitating reasons?

Because it’s easy for scum to sheep wrong town and be like yep I just agreed with that dude he sounded clever

I don’t like that post, at all.

VOTE: ultimateplank

So instead I should use other people's reasoning to place my own vote?

I feel like the point is that you should at least have

a

reason or

some

reasoning for voting.

Can someone TL;DR key points the wagon on looker?
I've caught up but I still don't get it

You have a reason for not wanting Looker to be pressured?

That was a very weird thing to say. He asked you for your reasoning and you pretty much said "I have none." It was the equivalent of "Why" versus "Why not".

My reason for pressuring Looker is that he has basically no content. I'd forgotten all about that slot until I saw others vote him, and then I realised that was actually a good place for a wagon right now.

In any case I'm very comfortable seeing how poorly profii and Vork have responded to Looker suddenly getting a few votes. I think we should keep the pressure on Looker, or one of those two

• Elements has no content and, up until now, you've championed him being scum
• Forgetting a slot doesn't make that slot scummy; hopping on a wagon just makes you opportnustic
• Saying it's "a good place for a wagon right now" shows a lack of conviction - you're sheeping
• People will respond poorly to your lack of reasoning regardless of who you are voting, as you will soon see

Um no, maybe others can weigh in on this, but OMGUS

does not

have to involve a vote!

You specifically quoted and called me out on doing it and tried to paint me as intentionally doing it (I was) to blast bullshit and fake news to obfuscate the thread (????), when I was clearly doing it as a joke as a reply to saudade's claims and also Vorkuta's.

• They can; I did; it doesn't. That's what the word 'typically' was used for.
• I specifically questioned whether it was a joke and you exploded. You were doing it on purpose, though, so okay. Either way, it's not helpful to me, and so I will state as much.

I have a really bad headache I'll play later

Hope it goes away soon!

Finally, the wake wagon filled up really fast with a very small amount of resistance, and fell away as fast.
Whereas this looker wagon has some real resistance to it. People are either not commenting on it or parking their votes on people with just 1 vote. We need to pressure this slot more.

Join me on this wagon!

I would investigate those members on the Wake wagon. My wagon's experiencing resistance because: (A) The reasoning is weirdly selective - you target me over Element despite him having no content (B) The scum that jumped on Wake looking for a quicklynch would look hella scummy if they hopped on my wagon with no hesitation

The only thing in Looker's ISO I dislike right now is his vote on Elements.

Is there a reasonable opposition or just a lack of understanding?

Finally, the wake wagon filled up really fast with a very small amount of resistance, and fell away as fast.
Whereas this looker wagon has some real resistance to it.

That's basically what I'm feeling at the moment, for what it's worth.

I really, REALLY hate Day 1 because I've got nothing tangible to work with.

I've got both profii and Zote getting fussy over putting pressure on Looker, and I'm not so sure how to read that so early in the game.

Fair, but I feel it would be more helpful if you addressed their actual reasoning. I didn't vote you - does that make me scummy?

That's basically what I'm feeling at the moment, for what it's worth.

I really, REALLY hate Day 1 because I've got nothing tangible to work with.

I've got both profii and Zote getting fussy over putting pressure on Looker, and I'm not so sure how to read that so early in the game.

Go ahead and read Zote's ISO. Theres a shitload of posts, but he's probably said the same amount of non-fluff as you.

This was improperly quoted - that's not what Zote said in post 319. (Is this part of your blast bullshit and fake news M.O.? ) [I was joking. Notice the smiley.]

Elements is being prodded

It's cool; I have time.

Where is the part where he's genuinely trying to figure out Saudade's alignment exactly?

I see Zote having a townread and Looker saying that he isn't sure about that. But where does Looker actually go out of his way to show that he is trying to sort Saudade?

I feel that's subjective. Who's to say what scumhunting looks like and what it doesn't? I feel like your expectations are a stretch for D1.

I'm very surprised that Elements isn't participating when the town has a lot of divided opinions

So did you forget about him? Do you find this scummy? Or does he not meet your vote quota to be found scummy?

VOTE: profii

Actually this is where I want to vote. Looker's probably a wolf with profii, but profii's actually actively doing wolfy things right now. I think profii is a surefire bet to flip wolf.

If I'm probably a wolf and have a wagon, why would you hop off of it? Especially if you're not going to provide reasoning to compel a wagon?

Ugh the votes are all over the place. Its hard to analyse when people start a 1 vote wagon all over the place.

I would think it'd be easier to analyze when people are genuinely voting how they feel. I feel wagons are where people get to hide under bullshit. Blasted bullshit.

So you think Looker is town because he is trying to figure out if someone else is town or not.

Which is what most of us here are doing?

Most of us are town, alimdia.

---

So, here's the deal: I'll keep my vote on Elements until he returns or is replaced out; however, upon his return and input, I'm prepared to place my final vote of D1.

[alimdia]

That's basically what I'm feeling at the moment, for what it's worth.

I really, REALLY hate Day 1 because I've got nothing tangible to work with.

I've got both profii and Zote getting fussy over putting pressure on Looker, and I'm not so sure how to read that so early in the game.

Go ahead and read Zote's ISO. Theres a shitload of posts, but he's probably said the same amount of non-fluff as you.

This was improperly quoted - that's not what Zote said in post 319. (Is this part of your blast bullshit and fake news M.O.? ) [I was joking. Notice the smiley.]

That's basically what I'm feeling at the moment, for what it's worth.

I really, REALLY hate Day 1 because I've got nothing tangible to work with.

I've got both profii and Zote getting fussy over putting pressure on Looker, and I'm not so sure how to read that so early in the game.
So, here's the deal: I'll keep my vote on Elements until he returns or is replaced out; however, upon his return and input, I'm prepared to place my final vote of D1

Sorry about that, I think I was trying I must have deleted the wrong header/footer of a quote when editting. I try not to do too much nested quotes, heres the post I meant to quote (by wake88)

That's basically what I'm feeling at the moment, for what it's worth.

I really, REALLY hate Day 1 because I've got nothing tangible to work with.

I've got both profii and Zote getting fussy over putting pressure on Looker, and I'm not so sure how to read that so early in the game.

[alimdia]

Wait so post #396 or #414 is me exploding? I just had a look at both of them and.... its just me defending myself against your claim that I'm intentionally obfuscating the thread. FYI you're still only pointing at me for doing that.

A quick search for the term 'fake news': People were using the terms “fake news”, as popularised by [redacted to make it not political], to discredit opponents, in this case: me.

[alimdia]

Lack of protest of the wake wagon falling down is noted. Any thoughts from anyone?

I feel it was opportunistic scum, honestly. When people don't have to give reasoning, anybody can jump on a wagon.

Your 334 said that you haven't read wake yet.
Your 393 and 403 also don't mention wake.

Your next post, which is the post I am quoting, suddenly straight up slips that wake is town. Hmm? Where did that sudden town read come from? I think it's definitely a slip

If we assume that's an accident.... who is the opportunistic scum on the wagon? Why is your vote on Elements, who needed to be prodded by the mod and thus actually hasn't posted in a while.

[profii]

Lack of protest of the wake wagon falling down is noted. Any thoughts from anyone?

I feel it was opportunistic scum, honestly. When people don't have to give reasoning, anybody can jump on a wagon.

See this is why I can't make a decision on Saudade. I felt Wake was the best place to start the wagon, but I made post 405 specifically to bait someone into going 'come on guys, we should push this lynch through' and instead, the wagon just died even more

So I agree that it's possible opportunistic scum

could

be involved and I'll be looking at what paths Vortuka and Saudade take from here on in.

[profii]

suddenly straight up slips that wake is town

can you clarify that please ?

[Elements]

UNVOTE:
I'm back from my intense weekend of sports and I will read through the thread and doing some actually playing some time this evening. I'm GMT so probably the afternoon for most of you.

[alimdia]

suddenly straight up slips that wake is town

can you clarify that please ?

He said opportunistic scum jumped on wake's wagon, which implies he knows that wake is town.
The other possible implication is that he town read wake hard, which I showed that there was no evidence in my 438 that that is the case.

[alimdia]

I have a really bad headache I'll play later

Hope it goes away soon!

Finally, the wake wagon filled up really fast with a very small amount of resistance, and fell away as fast.
Whereas this looker wagon has some real resistance to it. People are either not commenting on it or parking their votes on people with just 1 vote. We need to pressure this slot more.

Join me on this wagon!

I would investigate those members on the Wake wagon. My wagon's experiencing resistance because: (A) The reasoning is weirdly selective - you target me over Element despite him having no content (B) The scum that jumped on Wake looking for a quicklynch would look hella scummy if they hopped on my wagon with no hesitation

Why don't you do some investigation yourself instead of putting a vote on an afk person until they come back? That makes no sense. 5 other people aren't gonna magically jump onto his wagon before he gets replaced or comes back.

Let me help you a bit: Saudade, profii, Vorkuta, Zote the Mighty Saladman27(L-1)

Saudade: you conceded at #334, so I assume TR here
Zote the mighty: you conceded to zote that saudade was likely town, so.... I assume TR here
profii: 0 direct posts about him, either reading him as town, scum or even null. Some indirect discussion about rule discussions and your latest post where you said you felt like it was 'opportunistic scum' on wake's bandwagon.
Vorkuta: 0 direct post until you under-summarized the case on you
Saladman27: 0 mention at all, not even indirect

Okay so..... you've basically been tunneling on Saudade until you agreed he was town, didn't look at Vorkuta and Saladman much, slightly looked at profii. By your own admission you should be looking at people on Wake's wagon. Why are you focusing on Elements again?

[alimdia]

I need people to support this wagon. The evidence is damning...

@Plank, come back on this
@Saudade, @profii, @wake88 What do you think of the stuff I just laid out? Join the wagon if in agreement please
@Eibirn, @Elements hopefully you guys read my stuff in detail

Also... if someone, for example me, lays out a good case about why someone is scum, provides evidence, example and so on...
Why does anyone that reads it have to provide additional original reasoning in order to join the wagon? The whole point is I'm trying to
1) find scum
2) convince other people to agree with me and vote with me.

If my case convinces people, I don't see why they have to find some other extra reasoning to vote with me.
It's only when its like ... the wake wagon where there's not really a case that its suspicious.

[Saudade]

Im going to be busy this week i'm still reading but ill do some analysis with 3 days to go so we'll still have plenty of time

[Saudade]

Its okay that you pressure looker

[alimdia]

My man park your vote here while you afk

[profii]

suddenly straight up slips that wake is town

can you clarify that please ?

He said opportunistic scum jumped on wake's wagon, which implies he knows that wake is town.
The other possible implication is that he town read wake hard, which I showed that there was no evidence in my 438 that that is the case.

I thought so, I just wanted you to say it rather than me assume it.
I see what you mean, I'd like to know where Lookers hard town read comes from.

[profii]

I need people to support this wagon. The evidence is damning...

@Plank, come back on this
@Saudade, @profii, @wake88 What do you think of the stuff I just laid out? Join the wagon if in agreement please
@Eibirn, @Elements hopefully you guys read my stuff in detail

Also... if someone, for example me, lays out a good case about why someone is scum, provides evidence, example and so on...
Why does anyone that reads it have to provide additional original reasoning in order to join the wagon? The whole point is I'm trying to
1) find scum
2) convince other people to agree with me and vote with me.

If my case convinces people, I don't see why they have to find some other extra reasoning to vote with me.
It's only when its like ... the wake wagon where there's not really a case that its suspicious.

Firstly I think you a town. You seem pretty convinced that Looker is doing something worth digging into which is cool. I wouldnt expect scum to drive a day 1 wagon from scratch like this...

However, I am curious about Looker, but I dont feel a need to vote right now... I have specific questions, if he answers them satisfactorily, then cool, I probably wont vote. If not, I'll either ask more questions or just vote. I dont feel the need to just jump in though - what if we evaluate someone and we decide they are town, but they dont want to work together because they feel like you gave them a hard time? then how do we catch scum - we need to play the long game here... it's a team sport.


To your point about extra reasoning - I would say on day 1, it's not like we have a PR saying I saw slot X do action Y to slot Z which is clear scum - if that was the case I'd say fine, quick-lynch. This is day 1 - we know nothing - all the players are humans and have their own perspective, I'd expect it to be simple enough for 10 different people to evaluate a situation and say 'I agree with part A but not so much part B' and have 10 different opinions - if people all come in and just go 'yep vote' at this early stage, something is wrong - so there isn't a rush right now.