Newbie 1964 [Game Over]

[Arkias]

Ive made it pretty clear I don't want a policy lynch on Day 1 either.

But the hands being thrown up in the air and such is a good point.

VOTE: LClpJones

L-1

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Heavy - what makes you think I'm looking to policy lynch Jones?

Basically cause you were voting him prior.
It looks as if you were looking to draw negative attention to his emotional response by not showing much emotion yourself.

Ok are you drawing attention to my vote from back before Arkias here? And I cased him before the emotional post. So what makes you think my push here is policy based.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Zepp - my initial concern with Jones goes back to his initial vote on BBM at 30. When pressed, he makes 33 where he then basically admits that he didnt think BBM was sheeping or that scum would be so transparent about sheeping, so now it sounds like it was just a random vote with a joke about sheeping. Which whatever, fine, I wouldnt have scumread that, but instead he is basically asked that question and he makes 35, where he says the vote was only mostly because of sheeping, but not fully. 1 he still hasn't provided clarification on what else contributed to that vote, and then at 39, he admits that he doesnt see BBM's vote as a sheep. So now, I have no idea why he switched his vote. Mostly because of the sheep, which he now says wasnt a sheep, but not fully, but no extra detail. By 59 he has now fully committed to the idea that BBM wasnt sheeping. So now, I'm lost on the original vote switch.
Now, he answered some of my questions in a satisfactory way, so I unvoted him. He for some reason took that as an opportunity to shade me and Micc, who hadn't even voted him. I ask some questions at 144 that are related to my case at 155.

So @Gyro, those are my reasons for voting him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gyro - if you didnt know what people's reasons for voting him were, why'd you vote him and not someone else?

[Micc]

What is the difference is between L-1 and L-2 on your read there? Potential to hammer only?

the one vote makes a big difference. at l-1 someone can state their intent to hammer at any point and then you have to claim, and that's a big deal for scum. It's also one more person putting their neck on the line to be part of a meaningful wagon and that's something that reads can be built off of. heck maybe someone who is on the wagon has cold feet and backs off and reads can be made from that.

the point here being that in a game of this size, l-1 wagons mean things are much more real and meaningful when compared to everything else.

[BBmolla]

you're not paying attention if you think it's a sheep vote.

you can't deny the timing of your vote is suspect though

The timing being when gyro decided to start playing?

[Micc]

my answer for gyro asking why we are voting jones:

Spoiler:

'd say the argument for voting Zrpp today is not to waste a vote later. I don't think anyone wants to vote him over a scum read but even if he's town it will have a positive benefit in a lylo situation as


I very much get the feeling that the scum team is backing off on me.
FOS Billy and FOS Micc.

I'm not quite so happy with my vote on Micc right now.
UNVOTE:

Now there's options.

Just fwiw I'm not suggesting that those two are the scum team as in together, but I see certain things that might indicate they are scum.

At the moment, I dont want to lynch in Karnage, Micc, or Jones.
Not interested in BBM today, and I'm not policy lynching Zepp on D1.

That leaves Arkias, bep, and Salsae. Bep seems like they're trying at the moment. Salsae we gave you some thoughts on how to get started, but haven't heard from you in 24 hours. I'd like some pressure on that slot, but for me, Arkias is more interesting. I think his explanation of the vote on me was pretty vague, and when pressed, he didnt clarify.

I don't like this push at all. Salsae I'd agree with based on lack of content but Arkias? He hasn't had a chance to respond so pushing him for that makes little sense. Just going by timezones all his posts have been roughly the same time of day. I see clear reasoning which I can follow in his posts.

I'm going to place my vote on Salsae for now.
VOTE: Salsas

I very much get the feeling that the scum team is backing off on me.
FOS Billy and FOS Micc.

I'm not quite so happy with my vote on Micc right now.
UNVOTE:

umm... aren't these two statements contradictory?

Not really; I FoS Micc but don't think I have enough evidence to push a wagon right now, so I might as well make my vote be useful.

Salsas is not the lack of content wagon to be joining. There’s already two of us on Gyro. Why not join the fun?

I'd be more comfortable not right now with that as it somewhat wastes a vote on a VI slot and I'd like to put some pressure somewhere where it might be more useful. Albeit it's definitely an option later and I definitely would be happy to lynch him by default over no lynch.

If this improvement in play continues it could very well change my opinion on that
\_(^-^)_/

I think this string of posts is unlikely to have come from a town player who is genuinely trying to scum hunt.

I think the discussion of how billy and I are handling his slot shows a self consciousness about how he's being read that is more likely to come from scum than town. He suggests that billy and I might be the scumteam, but he's also not comfortable voting me, I imagine because he's realized I'm going to be a tough lynch to make happen by this point.

The jump to Salsas is actually pretty reasonable from a lack of content standpoint, but it's really unproductive. When I pointed out that Gyro was a wagon for a similar reason that had more support he expresses not being comfortable lynching a VI slot and that pressure elsewhere is more useful. Being concerned about losing a lynch to Gryo is a pretty good size turnaround from post 136 where he acknowledged that a vote for gryo now is a vote not wasted later down the road. As for pressure, how can being the single vote on a low content player ever be more meaningful than a third vote on a low content player? Especially when he's on the player who's headed towards being replaced (salsas) and not the one that is actively deciding not to be useful (gyro).

[Heavy Anaconda]

What is the difference is between L-1 and L-2 on your read there? Potential to hammer only?

the one vote makes a big difference. at l-1 someone can state their intent to hammer at any point and then you have to claim, and that's a big deal for scum. It's also one more person putting their neck on the line to be part of a meaningful wagon and that's something that reads can be built off of. heck maybe someone who is on the wagon has cold feet and backs off and reads can be made from that.

the point here being that in a game of this size, l-1 wagons mean things are much more real and meaningful when compared to everything else.

You make a interesting point about vote importance scaling with the size of the game. Although that notion would imply I should treat everyday In small games more like lylo, I see your point.
The rest is arguable however, for example I would argue running up a player to L1 in hopes of extracting a claim would be considered scummy.

[Micc]

anaconda, is it scummy for me to run Jones up to L-1 and push for a claim if I think he's scum?

[Micc]

But the hands being thrown up in the air and such is a good point.

wait a second. You're sheeping me?

[Arkias]

I think you're town.

I just think you assume everyone's played forum mafia and are playing in a forum mafia best interest/optimal play, rather than people coming from live games (Town of Salem/Throne of Lies) and doing typical plays from it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@BBM - you had voted Jones earlier then unvoted when he had an emotional display. Wagon's up to L-1, what do you make of it now?

[Micc]

I think you're town.

I just think you assume everyone's played forum mafia and are playing in a forum mafia best interest/optimal play, rather than people coming from live games (Town of Salem/Throne of Lies) and doing typical plays from it.

that's close, but not quite it. I assume that everyone is here to learn about forum mafia, and I try to lead them in a good direction by challenging their opinions and forcing them to consider whether the concept that they are trying to apply is applicable to this format or not. For players who are open minded I hope it helps them learn, and for me the insight into how other players think about theory concepts is a good baseline to use later when it comes time to make reads based on game content.

[Heavy Anaconda]

anaconda, is it scummy for me to run Jones up to L-1 and push for a claim if I think he's scum?

Yeah in hindsight.
I will also add, if every vote is precious, they so is every role reveal.

[Micc]

So, what action would you recommend someone who is town take when they decide another player is scum? (voting them to L-1 not being a good option of course because you see it as scummy)

[BBmolla]

@BBM - you had voted Jones earlier then unvoted when he had an emotional display. Wagon's up to L-1, what do you make of it now?

he literally has not posted since I'm waiting for him or a replacement to speak

[Arkias]

I think you're town.

I just think you assume everyone's played forum mafia and are playing in a forum mafia best interest/optimal play, rather than people coming from live games (Town of Salem/Throne of Lies) and doing typical plays from it.

that's close, but not quite it. I assume that everyone is here to learn about forum mafia, and I try to lead them in a good direction by challenging their opinions and forcing them to consider whether the concept that they are trying to apply is applicable to this format or not. For players who are open minded I hope it helps them learn, and for me the insight into how other players think about theory concepts is a good baseline to use later when it comes time to make reads based on game content.

I appreciate it. But like, our entire arguement between pages 4 to 7 came because I was reading Gyro as a bored townie since he was playing like one from ToS and ToL. He later confirmed that's what was going on with him, and anything else would just be a question on Policy Lynching. I do understand the view in forum mafia though, but I just don't believe that was Gyro's intention. I feel like in other games that I play forward, I just wont have that mindset with weird posting styles.

[Heavy Anaconda]

So, what action would you recommend someone who is town take when they decide another player is scum? (voting them to L-1 not being a good option of course because you see it as scummy)

First off, I think it's better if the player under pressure responds as naturally as possible. He likely would have exhibited the same reaction if he found himself L1 rather than L2. So concerning my read on him I didn't think it worthwhile to add another vote.

Secondly, my vote did not wreck your wagon. It seems funny to me you also "threw your hands in the air" when you found a counter wagon instead of your Jones being at L1.

[Micc]

I think you're town.

I just think you assume everyone's played forum mafia and are playing in a forum mafia best interest/optimal play, rather than people coming from live games (Town of Salem/Throne of Lies) and doing typical plays from it.

that's close, but not quite it. I assume that everyone is here to learn about forum mafia, and I try to lead them in a good direction by challenging their opinions and forcing them to consider whether the concept that they are trying to apply is applicable to this format or not. For players who are open minded I hope it helps them learn, and for me the insight into how other players think about theory concepts is a good baseline to use later when it comes time to make reads based on game content.

I appreciate it. But like, our entire arguement between pages 4 to 7 came because I was reading Gyro as a bored townie since he was playing like one from ToS and ToL. He later confirmed that's what was going on with him, and anything else would just be a question on Policy Lynching. I do understand the view in forum mafia though, but I just don't believe that was Gyro's intention. I feel like in other games that I play forward, I just wont have that mindset with weird posting styles.

I'll respond here if you really want to continue this line of conversation but otherwise I'm dropping it.

So, what action would you recommend someone who is town take when they decide another player is scum? (voting them to L-1 not being a good option of course because you see it as scummy)

First off, I think it's better if the player under pressure responds as naturally as possible. He likely would have exhibited the same reaction if he found himself L1 rather than L2. So concerning my read on him I didn't think it worthwhile to add another vote.

this doesn't answer my question. I think LCpl is scum for the reasons I outlined in post 206. In post 213 you said that I was scummy for wanting Jones to go to L-1 and eventually claim. I want you to tell me what I, as a town player, am supposed to do in this situation in order to not be scum read by you.

Secondly, my vote did not wreck your wagon. It seems funny to me you also "threw your hands in the air" when you found a counter wagon instead of your Jones being at L1.

Sorry, I'm not following this part. What are wagon are you referring to being "wrecked", what posts are you taking as me having thrown my hands into the air, and what counterwagon are you talking about?

[Heavy Anaconda]

@micc
I didn't answer the question cause you were misrepping the issue.
Obviously players are going to reach L1 before they hit majority. I asked you first why the fuss over L1/L2. For example, If pausing at L1 to make reads is good procedure, then why not L2? Are the reads more credible, if so why? The perceived amount of duress?

Secondly you know what I'm referring to. You made the statement "What a world we live in." That is also an appeal to emotion.

[Micc]

I don't think I've misrepresented anything here. I answered those questions in post 204 and you responded to them, but there's some logic that I think is flawed in that response and I feel compelled to challenge that logic. I'll happily take another shot at explaining L-1 vs L-2 again in exchange for you explaining how townies are supposed to lynch scum without making wagons which you called scummy.

Getting a genuine reaction from someone in forum mafia is really hard. You can't judge body language, tone of voice or a whole host of other things that exist in other formats. In this format, scum can take 40 minutes typing up the perfect response and even run it by their partner before hand in the scum chat if needed. A fundamental part of forum mafia theory is that applying pressure, especially in real time is the best way to get genuine reactions. L-1 with someone stating intent to hammer means there is a very real chance of a lynch going through at any time. L-2 with no more votes coming means the wagon is likely to dissolve. Five people's probing questions are a bigger burden to carry than three people's. Say what you want to say now or you might never get another chance. The onus is on town to make these valuable interactions happen and without them it's really hard to make accurate reads.

Secondly you know what I'm referring to. You made the statement "What a world we live in." That is also an appeal to emotion.

I mean, sure its an appeal to emotion, but I followed it up by stating exactly what I was frustrated with, how I thought it could be fixed and working to fix it myself. That's a far cry from throwing my hands in the air, picking up my ball, going home and never returning as Jones has done to this point. I don't think these things are comparable.

[Gyro Zeppeli]

That makes sense looking through the quotes, ill keep my vote on him

[skitter30]

prodding lcpl jones

[skitter30]

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[skitter30]

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