Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 Dead PT

[chennisden]

Otoh explaining why it's great ruins it

[popsofctown]

What are you saying should be a kodak moment? Post 71???

[Ginngie]

yeah

I'm applying "moment" loosely here

[popsofctown]

I think Elements makes some things funny that would not be quite so funny were it not Elements.

[Ginngie]

idunno how one would nom it tho so there's also that

[Ginngie]

honestly might just look into a title nom instead, simpler and doesn't have to focus on one game.

[popsofctown]

I don't see why you can't nom posts from dead PTs after they go public postgame, for what that's worth.

[Ginngie]

I wouldn’t nom the post, I’m talking about Elements

[popsofctown]

I follow now.
Yeah it is kind of abstract for a comparison between 2 games to constitute a "moment".
Maybe there's a title in there.

[Rakan]

Well, town not being able to hammer before deadline was really rough on us.

[Rakan]

Hey it doesn't really matter but doesn't saying the core is reached immediately after the end of day 4 mean that the number of mafia in the spared pt should have been revealed before night 4 actions?

[Rakan]

Also, I remember arguing for a long period of time about why it was best to spare day 1 and kill day 2

But then we didn't do that, and so we missed our night 2 investigate

[popsofctown]

Hey it doesn't really matter but doesn't saying the core is reached immediately after the end of day 4 mean that the number of mafia in the spared pt should have been revealed before night 4 actions?

It was, by means of flavor, though it wasn't overtly stated. Maybe it needed to be more clear. I don't think there was harm in this case, since the person who could have made a misinformed decision was mastina, and in her night action PM it was clear that she understood the killer robot flavor to be a 1 mafia spared reveal. (Her night action PM was a wallpost, because she is mastina and we love her)

[popsofctown]

In the mod PT I have been posting lots of brainstormed ideas for a new neutral route, since it is the route in the setup I am most unhappy with. I have rejected like 4 ideas already after calculating EVs. (The EV on the current neutral route is fine, but the EV changes very little when the town spares scum, which I view as a flaw.)

I finally have one that seems to have acceptable EVs, and retains the property of being qualitatively different from both pacifist and genocide, and meets the goal of punishing towns for sparing scum. It is very iffy to spare exactly two players, but the original neutral route has that issue anyway.
My nickname for this one is Double Barrel. Some of the inspiration for the design was Nachomamma8's notion about sparing players for being strong rather than just being town aligned, and this setup rewards that moreso than the previous neutral.

I welcome any feedback on this potential design.

Neutral Route: In all other cases, the game enters neutral route. The members of the spared PT immediately kill two players from the main thread. If there are two spared players, each spared player picks a kill in the spared PT without nokilling or targeting the other spared player's target. If there's an odd number of spared players, a combination of players to be killed is selected by majority vote.
After these kills resolve, the spared players are returned to the game. There is no Night 4 nightkill.
The game then continues with the spare option removed and the town win condition of "kill all mafia".

[Ginngie]

5 bucks chemist votes Oversoul because MS loves to throw

[Ginngie]

Also hey mastina sorry for calling you scum but i finally used your chart thingy and i think it’s the first time my final read has been correct about you

[chennisden]

I will HURT: somebody if we lose

[chennisden]

Please lynch Elements. Literally he makes so much sense as scum in every way.

[chennisden]

I regret not pushing this lynch harder.

Well, sucks to suck I guess.

[popsofctown]

Did you actually use that chart to read mastina?
The point of the chart seemed to be to always townread mastina.
Seems like a broke clock is correct twice a day thing.

[mastina]

One of my beliefs is that once you get a red role PM you have a harder time discerning between townreadable and null behavior, so I think they maybe yes overrated your towniness. I think Ginngie would have been a much stronger shot, I think people were townreading him more. Although I hesitate to second guess the mafia like that, I am no expert on being the bad guys.

chennis was frankly the best shot the scumteam took.
Shooting Nymph was kinda gamethrowing for them tho.

[mastina]

I'm not sure why town wants to go 2-2. 2-2 generates 1 confirmed innocent in 5 man LyLo and then goes into a 3 man LyLo, when it's innocents that have been spared. So you need to make 2 accurate townreads to win that LyLo

If you feel you can make 2 accurate townreads, just win now? If the 2 accurate townreads are wrong in neutral, you lose. If the 2 accurate townreads are wrong in Pacifist, you get some amount of do-over, you get to do the spare a 5th person and guess the mafia game.

You also instantly lose 2-2 if scum is spared and people have pointed that out. But even when the 2 spares are clean, the way I'm counting it, pacifist is better. I think the flips are valuable but surely not as valuable as a do-over. Which is itself, kind of a flip, look at these people you liked, you were wrong about one of them

I mean I said it in my rant, but town massively misplayed.
On D2, the town should've committed to one of two options.
Spare on D2, commit to pacifist.
Fight on D2, commit to neutral.
Sparing on D2, but fighting on D3, was the WORST possible choice because it meant I couldn't investigate N2, and we couldn't win on D4.

[mastina]

mastina's last post is awesome. A lie. But an awesome lie.

Eh? What was the lie?

[mastina]

Also, I remember arguing for a long period of time about why it was best to spare day 1 and kill day 2

But then we didn't do that, and so we missed our night 2 investigate

Hey, not my fault.
I was arguing that we should've lynched D2, or committed to full pacifist.
I was overruled.

[mastina]

Also hey mastina sorry for calling you scum but i finally used your chart thingy and i think it’s the first time my final read has been correct about you

I mean.
I keep on SAYING it.
Time and time again.
"The flowchart says it all".
And yet to this day, most people ignore it because lolselfmeta, in spite of how using it would help them sort me.