Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[GuiltyLion]

guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109

the better question is why should I think he's scum for that? What scum agenda does it serve to self-vote there? The default odds that his slot is town is 75%.

like sure you can make an argument that it's all WIFOM to defuse pressure and make us sympathize with him, but that's competing against a town explanation where he's meme-ing/trolling (which he indicated he'd do in 65) or genuinely frustrated at TGS' interaction with him. I don't have a strong reason to prefer the scum explanation over the town explanation.

I see townies self-vote all the time, it literally just happened in my last completed game. It's a different context since this was near EOD and Doolittle wanted to make sure a lynch went through, but the idea that "town never self-votes" is inherently wrong.

[Map Wolf]

VOTE: Map Wolf

page 2 reads list looks fake

I'll admit it's very arbitrary as it's mostly just me guessing off of few posts.
But could you elaborate on why you find it fake?

Because I've played a ton of mafia and I've learned to be able to discern awkward "trying too hard" qualities that are generally more likely to come from scum

First, you felt compelled to explain

why

you were posting a readslist in the first place, "since people aren't that active". Theres nothing wrong with posting a readslist, but introducing it like that it's as if you're defending yourself already against an imaginary question of why you were posting it.

Second you take very tentative and weak stances on basically everyone. "Neutral" is not an alignment and not a read. Everyone is either town or scum and if you can't tell me how you feel about them yet then you're not really giving reads at all. Even your scumread is very hedgey, "leaning somewhat scum" reads like you're afraid to make real waves by calling somebody out.

Third, why even comment on players who haven't posted yet? Everybody knows we hadn't posted. Again it's just awkward - sometimes that comes from townies who don't really know what they're doing yet but in my experience it's decent odds of scum.

Finally it's odd that your strongest townread is GBJ, who I actually also find scummy. What makes you think scum couldn't be aggressive? For someone who seems generally hesitant to call everybody town or scum it's weird that you feel most comfortable about that slot in particular.

So I am not trying to justify the very fact that I post a reads list. I am just posting it because there's nothing else to really comment on. Might as well throw something in there to discuss.

Now I'll admit putting everyone neutral by default is pretty stupid as I realise there's 3/4 chance they are town. I don't make conclusions because I don't have any knowledge that would make me sure on alignments.

The reason I put players not posting on the list is so that it's complete and I can quickly copy it as a template later. It's not because I have any views on them.

As for my read on GBJ, that's obviously a big guess at the time. I don't like what they've posted since then though. (Will elaborate)

[Rise]

Hey all.

Thoughts so far:

- Not totally sold on GuiltyLion's #54. Maybe it's because I don't have much experience, but it seems like a stretch. I do have a few problems with MapWolf's readlist and will point them out when I'm on a computer, but it generally seems ok. It's very early on in the game so I don't think it's realistic for anyone to have strong scum/town readings.
- Strongly agree with TGS's #60. I was actually going to comment something similar but she bet me to it. So far, all GBJ has done is 1) shade people (#34, #48), 2) backpeddle (#39), and 3) make a comment that doesn't really say anything (#55). To me, it looks like they're trying to blend in without actually contributing. Unless we get a good reason for their actions, I'm gonna assume I'm right.
- Blatant scum's behaviour is realllyyyy weird. Again, I'll probably clarify when I'm on a computer.

For now, I'm gonna have to go with VOTE: Blatant Scum

My problem isn't strictly that someone doesn't have page 2 reads - reads are hard, I get it - my problem is more like, if you're gonna just say everyone is "neutral" then why do you feel the need to post a readslist to begin with? Where is that coming from?

Also, why vote Blatant Scum instead of GBJ? This post pings me in that you give several reasons for suspecting GBJ but then vote a different slot and give us no explanation as to why you think they're scummy.

Agree in that the list didn't say much, but is that really scum indicative? Could it not be a townie trying their best? I do think there's parts in it that's worth questioning but your full tunnel on them really wasn't something I could agree with.

As for my vote on Blatant, like I said, I find their behaviour really weird and I'll clarify once I'm on a computer (which is soon). I'm not a fan of their recent posts either so I'm happy with where my vote is right now.

[Map Wolf]

Since people aren't that active, I think I might as well do a read list:

Faustiv,

neutral for now. Is kind of aggressive, but I don't think that's all that alignment indicative at least so far.

Gjr,

neutral leaning somewhat scum. Seems defensive in tone, but this could also be town too afraid of being lynched. (Which you shouldn't be all that much, since being lynched early doesn't lose the game)

Blatant,

neutral. Some stuff posted doesn't make sense to me like 24. Hasn't actually tried to read anyone. Yet.

Titus,

V/LA for now.

TGS,

Neutral.

GBJ,

Town-leaning. Seems a bit aggressive for scum.

Rise,

not posted so far.

GuiltyLion

hasn't posted either.

Do you think GBJ has been ‘direct’ or ‘disfriendly’?

He made two posts prior to my 42. That's one post calling gjt "sus af" and another saying "ok maybe gjt isn't as sus as i say". So yes pretty direct, maybe not disfriendly.

gaybaby is town

If you're going to conclude that (and another conclusion in 95) then it's hard to really take it for much without some elaboration.

[Map Wolf]

What do you think of Map Wolf’s 38

didn't like it. Commenting on GBJ the sake of commenting but not drawing any conclusions about alignment. I was kinda wondering if it was a scum-scum coaching interaction like "hey buddy don't come in so hot" or whether it's s-t like "I want to comment on your post but don't worry I'm not scumreading you", but either way it looks disingenuous from Map Wolf. And it's also not really congruent with the mindset that Map Wolf is scumreading and voting Gjt

just for the record I didn't like 27 either

Regarding 27, that was a genuine thought that I posted without even reading 26 beforehand.

As for 38, I can see why you'd have those views of it. I don't think I'm disingenuous though. I don't think I needed to post that it alone didn't make him scum, and I do agree that it is a bit of a simplistic assumption to say that aggression --> not scum.

[Map Wolf]

I don't like GBJ's 120. I think BS's posts have been werid, but it feels like GBJ is needlessly trying to push a lynch on him.

[Rise]

Blatant post as promised.

Weird behaviour:

Spoiler:

-Hello everyone!
-I ignore all posts before this.
-Guys let's go! Let's lynch mafia!
-I am not nervious.

Weird entry is weird.

Question.
How many SEs are now in newbie games?
I played some games with 5 SEs, but there are only 3 SEs here.
Which is awesome, because there are only 2 players who can do reading here

How is that "awesome"? Genuinely don't understand this post and #28 doesn't help because I'm not confused as to what reading means.

VOTE: Wolf
L-2

Why?

ok.

do you scumread or townread anyone based on said wagons?

He scumreads me for selfvoting, because it is anti-town.
VOTE: BS

Why the self vote?

Refusing to take part:

Spoiler:

Blatant, neutral. Some stuff posted doesn't make sense to me like 24. Hasn't actually tried to read anyone.

And it won't happen.

So no reeds this game? Is there some specific reason behind that?

RNG is better than my reads.

blatant scum cuz they say their reads are bad as the reason to not post them like what???

Waste of energy.
I will rather mechsolve this game on day 3.

There are others who can scum hunt.

Before anyone says it: I get it, he's trolling. But how does that necessarily give him a free pass like "oh he's trolling so he must be town?" He's just as likely to be scum as anyone and I'm not liking how he's using this trolly mask as an excuse to not give reads, not contribute, and basically hide. Less contribution=less opportunity to slip up and get called out for it.

Furthermore for these posts, it looks like he does care about being voted so HMMMM.

I want this game to be a relaxing one.

Can we jump from the "BS is totally scum" stage of day 1 right into the "BS is townlean" stage of day 1?

Just pretend I trolled so hard that I am unlikely to be scum.
Thank you.

Sigh. This is a relaxing game?

To Blatant: if you are a town troll, seriously why? What do you hope to achieve? And if you are scum, then good play?

[Rise]

Also I liked Map Wolf's #126. It answered a lot of my questions for his earlier list so I'm not gonna question further.

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.03

Alatna River, Alaska, USA

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Blatant Scum

(3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Blatant Scum

Map Wolf

(2): faüstiv, GuiltyLion,

Gjt

(1): Map Wolf

Not Voting

(3): Gjt, Titus, TheGildedSun

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-20 10:30:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[Map Wolf]

That vote count is wrong; I appear twice.

Fixed, thank you --P

[faüstiv]

Since people aren't that active, I think I might as well do a read list:

Faustiv,

neutral for now. Is kind of aggressive, but I don't think that's all that alignment indicative at least so far.

Gjr,

neutral leaning somewhat scum. Seems defensive in tone, but this could also be town too afraid of being lynched. (Which you shouldn't be all that much, since being lynched early doesn't lose the game)

Blatant,

neutral. Some stuff posted doesn't make sense to me like 24. Hasn't actually tried to read anyone. Yet.

Titus,

V/LA for now.

TGS,

Neutral.

GBJ,

Town-leaning. Seems a bit aggressive for scum.

Rise,

not posted so far.

GuiltyLion

hasn't posted either.

Do you think GBJ has been ‘direct’ or ‘disfriendly’?

He made two posts prior to my 42. That's one post calling gjt "sus af" and another saying "ok maybe gjt isn't as sus as i say". So yes pretty direct, maybe not disfriendly.

gaybaby is town

If you're going to conclude that (and another conclusion in 95) then it's hard to really take it for much without some elaboration.

Ok

I asked that question because in Newbie 1757 you had a slight scumread on a player because he was ‘direct’ and ‘disfriendly’ and you were town in that game. It just pinged me as odd that you TR a player in this game for similar reasons.

eager to see your case on GBJ now.

also I’ll elaborate on that read when I get back at a computer.

[Rise]

guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109

the better question is why should I think he's scum for that? What scum agenda does it serve to self-vote there? The default odds that his slot is town is 75%.

like sure you can make an argument that it's all WIFOM to defuse pressure and make us sympathize with him, but that's competing against a town explanation where he's meme-ing/trolling (which he indicated he'd do in 65) or genuinely frustrated at TGS' interaction with him. I don't have a strong reason to prefer the scum explanation over the town explanation.

I see townies self-vote all the time, it literally just happened in my last completed game. It's a different context since this was near EOD and Doolittle wanted to make sure a lynch went through, but the idea that "town never self-votes" is inherently wrong.

Yes, self voting is not a thing only scum do, but it's still weird behaviour. Why would any normal townie do that? Does it not make you want to question him at all?

[Rise]

VOTE: Map Wolf

real vote

Can we get an explanation with this?

[faüstiv]

when I get back on computer.

[Rise]

Damn, I almost forgot about GBJ cause I'm liking their latest posts. Especially since after they got called out, they continued on without changing their behaviour. It seems like they're apologetically themselves and that's a plus for me.

[Rise]

*unapologetically

[Gjt]

Ay, we getting more involvement now. Will catch up and hopefully see some progress here

[Gjt]

gaybaby is town

That's just a sentence I never thought id see strung together

wow that's rude

why are you trying to antagonize me anyway? i put you down as town on my list

This was meant as a sentence of words not you directly, but take is as you will

[Blatant Scum]

I will park my vote here: VOTE: Rise
Then switch to Titus once he gets from V/LA

[TheGildedSun]

Ah, good day everyone! I'm sorry for completely disappearing last night. I was going to come back, and I did, I read all the previous posts, but to me there wasn't enough for me to reply to so I went to sleep instead.

I will park my vote here: VOTE: Rise
Then switch to Titus once he gets from V/LA

I haven't heard much talk on Rise. What's your opinion on them, and what led you to park your vote on them?

[TheGildedSun]

I think they are a new player who is warming up to forum mafia and is doing very well in terms of doing research (MafiaScum Wiki) on terms and tactics. I like that.

couldn't newbie scum want to read about terms and tactics as well? Why is that indicative of town alignment?

This wasn't the reason I declared that I believed them to be town. I stated that I thought them to be town because of their general newer demeanor and sheeping, not out of trying to hide but more so being unsure. I only said this second bit because they are clearly making efforts to get a better grasp of everything that is going on.

Although since then my opinion has changed slightly. I don't know how I feel about GBJ anymore, I'll look into them again as a followup in a bit.

[Blatant Scum]

I haven't heard much talk on Rise. What's your opinion on them, and what led you to park your vote on them?

Good old PoE and a feeling that the way he pushes me comes from a scum.

[Blatant Scum]

So much for my anti-read policy.

[Plotinus]

Titus¹ has been prodded. She has (expired on 2019-11-13 15:34:35) to post before I start looking for a replacement.

[GuiltyLion]

Now I'll admit putting everyone neutral by default is pretty stupid as I realise there's 3/4 chance they are town. I don't make conclusions because I don't have any knowledge that would make me sure on alignments.

The problem is if you "don't make conclusions" then it's:

a) hard to see your genuine thought process
and
b) super convenient for you to change the way you vote/read things later in the game without having to explain what changed, when, and why.

And that also ties into the larger point of like - if you weren't making conclusions then what were you hoping to gain from posting them?

further I would also kinda reframe it as I'm not asking for

"conclusions"

(implying some kind of final and definitive read) more than just like

"judgments"

. Saying somebody "could be town or scum" doesn't give any actual insight into what you are thinking. Saying "I think [x] is town for [y] reason" is far more useful to players trying to sort you, even if you then decide you were wrong later. It's also makes it a lot harder for scum to fake convincingly