Newbie 1963 - Game Over

[Uncrowned]

That above response was to JV's Post 996 btw, not to you Worst. just so it's clear

[the worst]

no dramas
what was your read on JV yday? i'm working thru your iso first so will know l8r but it's more useful to me now but i'm also making dinner

[Uncrowned]

actually given Uncr had an incorrect scumread yday and is forced to reevaluate you today I think the mindset of
"oh by POE I guess JV is scum..."
"oh that's a scumpost"
"oh that could be scum too"
"OH THIS IS SCUM"
checks as a town indicative mindset

obv. i'm not a mind reader (YET) and i'm still building a baseline mindset for uncr - but i don't think the trajectory there is actually scum indicative. him interacting with you like you're town while trying to lynch you defs wld be. but i think the active reconsideration/affirmation could p easily come from town

This is what I'm saying. Right now, JV has given me so much more to work with, so obviously I'm going to analyse him. I've tried in heaps of posts now to try and get Ethos to interact and explain some stuff, and even tried to lead other people in that direction, but no-one was saying anything of the sort until today where he's one of the few remaining suspects.

[JacksonVirgo]

You've voted: Me, Fish, Bugspray, Gyro, Fuz.

You weren't in the game during RVS, I believe. So these are all people you've at one point or another have had at least a SLIGHT feeling of them being scum, right?

Just going through and looking at different stages of the game, your base reads were:

1: Gyro/Bug with a chance of FF being part of a team. Post 373

Then you dipped into this thought were Teacher could be part of a scum team with Gyro, even though Teacher had voted Gyro D1 and saw him as a "profitable lynch" (his words). That's already an odd read to me since Teacher is an SE, doubt he'd bus D1. Not that it matters now since they're both dead and Teacher was Mason, but again, it leans into your whole playstyle of poking and prodding to see where you can sway people to make a lynch happen.

2: After they both died (Bug, Gyro), you had the back and forth with FF, no real base reads here to be seen yet.

3: Now your team changes to Fuz/Uncrowned in Post 882

4: Then you switch to Fuz/Eth0s in Post 921

5: And now you've got Me/Eth0s.

So no, I think I'm right in saying your reads have chopped and changed significantly over the course of the game. Being open-minded is cool, but from what I've seen from your play, yours seems more opportunistic and set on achieving mislynches.

Another point of interest here is that on every vote you've made except on Fish IIRC, there's already been other people voting on that player. Me, Bugspray, Gyro and Fuz all at one point or another had a lot of attention coming our way and had at least one or two votes set on us before you decided to jump in. Call it a frame if you want, I'm calling it as suspicious until I get more from worst and eth0s.

This post? I thought it was obvious how my reads were on you and Eth0s with some mixing of course because it's a dynamic game man, meaning my reads change with more information. Is that not allowed?

Woah, so you're scum if you don't start the wagon? Very big brain right there. You jumped on the Fuz wagon before me so I have no idea what you're meaning behind that.

[Uncrowned]

no dramas
what was your read on JV yday? i'm working thru your iso first so will know l8r but it's more useful to me now but i'm also making dinner

I still had JV in my null category yesterday, but I was actively questioning him on his Fish reads and his voting/unvoting and his overall inconsistency/jumpy behavior.

At the time, I was admittedly far more suspicious of Fuz, and also didn't like Ethos seemingly giving her a random vote of confidence when no-one else had similar thoughts.

[Uncrowned]

No, as I laid out in my post, your reads have been jumping back and forth with various combinations, and my theory behind that is that you were looking to see what would stick. It's all in that post you just quoted, I think it was opportunism and going for mislynches that would be easy for you to pull off.

And no, scum can start a wagon, I'm just saying your voting throughout the game has been in line with my theory of you being opportunistic, that's all.

[JacksonVirgo]

And you said almost nothing of relevance in response to my post 969, besides saying you were set on Ethos being scum.

Literally that means nothing since if you're scum you're obviously bussing

[JacksonVirgo]

Bussing is not the word, it's setting up a SvS

[JacksonVirgo]

No, as I laid out in my post, your reads have been jumping back and forth with various combinations, and my theory behind that is that you were looking to see what would stick. It's all in that post you just quoted, I think it was opportunism and going for mislynches that would be easy for you to pull off.

And no, scum can start a wagon, I'm just saying your voting throughout the game has been in line with my theory of you being opportunistic, that's all.

Did you not read what I said before? Jesus

[Uncrowned]

To elaborate @theworst, my D2 had me thinking JV could possibly be a nervous/new townie who kept taking back and putting on votes to different people because they weren't sure of anything. After further looking into his ISO and playstyle though, and from what's happened during this game, my opinion has swung, but that was only at the start of D3, not D2.

[JacksonVirgo]

@uncrowned, did you not read the post where I explained that? You either didn't read it or are ignoring it

[Uncrowned]

No, as I laid out in my post, your reads have been jumping back and forth with various combinations, and my theory behind that is that you were looking to see what would stick. It's all in that post you just quoted, I think it was opportunism and going for mislynches that would be easy for you to pull off.

And no, scum can start a wagon, I'm just saying your voting throughout the game has been in line with my theory of you being opportunistic, that's all.

Did you not read what I said before? Jesus

I'm pointing out that no, you weren't set on me and Ethos, you've changed frequently. I thought that was clear. You're trying to say you have these "base reads" when my post made it clear that you didn't until today.

[JacksonVirgo]

My votes changed from yourself/x to Eth0s/x now Eth0s/Yourself.

[Uncrowned]

And you said almost nothing of relevance in response to my post 969, besides saying you were set on Ethos being scum.

Literally that means nothing since if you're scum you're obviously bussing

...I want you to listen to yourself.

As I've said multiple times, Ethos had almost NO attention on him during D2. I was one of the ONLY people who saw something in his posts that struck me as odd, so I brought it up.

And everyone, including yourself, virtually ignored it. And then? The phase ended.

Keep in mind that I also had no attention on myself, so why in the world would I decide to start a conflict and get put under the microscope?

Because clearly I had a suspicion on Ethos, and I was willing to get into conflict if it meant finding a scum. You calling this a SvS is a reach, and I just laid out why.

[JacksonVirgo]

And you said almost nothing of relevance in response to my post 969, besides saying you were set on Ethos being scum.

Literally that means nothing since if you're scum you're obviously bussing

...I want you to listen to yourself.

As I've said multiple times, Ethos had almost NO attention on him during D2. I was one of the ONLY people who saw something in his posts that struck me as odd, so I brought it up.

And everyone, including yourself, virtually ignored it. And then? The phase ended.

Keep in mind that I also had no attention on myself, so why in the world would I decide to start a conflict and get put under the microscope?

Because clearly I had a suspicion on Ethos, and I was willing to get into conflict if it meant finding a scum. You calling this a SvS is a reach, and I just laid out why.

If that's the case and merging with my pov, you're saying Eth0s and worst is scum.

[Uncrowned]

If you don't agree with me on Ethos's D2 being a little odd, then explain to me why, because him calling Fuz clear town when nobody else did? You said it yourself, maybe he wanted to get some towncred. Cool, that's YOUR answer. I want HIS answer as to why he thought that way, which he still hasn't, and I'm not going to be satisfied with making a vote until I get something from him.

[Uncrowned]

And you said almost nothing of relevance in response to my post 969, besides saying you were set on Ethos being scum.

Literally that means nothing since if you're scum you're obviously bussing

...I want you to listen to yourself.

As I've said multiple times, Ethos had almost NO attention on him during D2. I was one of the ONLY people who saw something in his posts that struck me as odd, so I brought it up.

And everyone, including yourself, virtually ignored it. And then? The phase ended.

Keep in mind that I also had no attention on myself, so why in the world would I decide to start a conflict and get put under the microscope?

Because clearly I had a suspicion on Ethos, and I was willing to get into conflict if it meant finding a scum. You calling this a SvS is a reach, and I just laid out why.

If that's the case and merging with my pov, you're saying Eth0s and worst is scum.

Explain how this makes Ethos and Worst scum? I didn't mention Worst at all in this post, and I'm not merging with your POV at all. Like I said, my first post of this phase was literally me explaining some of my suspicions towards Ethos, that's my own POV not yours.

[JacksonVirgo]

In the case that what you say is true, and from my pov considering I am VT, it makes them both scum. Which I don't believe, which is why I scumread you. But it's hot and I don't feel like dealing with this right now, it's just going to stress me the shit out even more because I can just see Town lynching me because of stupid ass reasoning and ignoring the post which I literally explained why and then losing and if that happens I am blaming everything on everyone.

[Uncrowned]

I'm still yet to see any real reasoning behind your "Ethos is scum" POV except for when you said PoE. Otherwise, your thoughts on him in D2 and D3 had no other backing behind them. That's why to me, it comes off as a weak attempt at a bus and towncred for you assuming it's you and Ethos, which I think it is.

If you have actual reads on him and his posts, show that. Since you haven't done that at all? It's hard for me to get behind you as a townie, you're only making reads on me and completely ignoring Ethos even though he's the one you want lynched today. That just doesn't add up at all.

[JacksonVirgo]

I understand where you're coming from, give me a day and I'll write a list okay? I am just hot and bothered at the moment, hope you understand. Seeya

[Uncrowned]

You've said minimal about Ethos this entire game. You've either said (at various stages of the game) that he's town or scum, and that's about it. You also said he doesn't done much this game, which is true. But that's it. No other reads, no posts he's made that have set off alarm bells in your head, nothing except that "oh, he must be scum because I'm pretty sure Worst is good."

The lack of reads is unsettling and I think you've seen the opportunity to bus him and haven't given it the proper setup. You've slipped up, and now you're making all these reads on me while entirely ignoring the guy you are almost certain is scum. How does that make sense? It doesn't.

[Uncrowned]

Sorry, was writing that post up and didn't see that reply. That was just a continuation of my thought process.

This shit is stressful so i get you. take a break if need be.

[the worst]

Spoiler: location: inside of duck's head; subject: uncrowned part 1

I think a no lynch is a bad idea, I'd rather get as much info as we can out of the early stage of the game.

I'm putting my vote on someone who hasn't posted yet.

VOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

Also you're a JoJo character so you're already intimidating me, you stud you.

there's a few factors here which make me explicitly not-townread this rvs:
- the nolynch commentary is surface level NAI but also side-steps an invisible 'call to action'. gard did something incorrect at a policy level but not necessarily alignment indicative; rvs is a good opportunity to assign an asinine motivation to such things (e.g. "she is scum because she refuses to alienate people! *vote*" or "i think she's town because scum would try to go with the flow"
- there IS a vote here which is an opportunity to advance the gamestate but it's thrown down without wariness of the gamestate. the vote is also overqualified (i.e. "I'm putting my vote on someone who hasn't posted yet.") and comes with a cute/flirty comment. this kinda equal probability comes from someone who is just cute and flirty or a guilty conscience (a kind of unconscious apology for voting there)

never been great at finding scum in rvs but i'm >rand finding town in rvs
just kinda... flat-to-nullscum on the opener


53 i don't like rqs (don't have much experience with it, normally i'm like "...mm ok?" and haven't really noticed any patterns with how scum/town answer certain things)
interesting takeaway is uncr being a ~kinda~ semi organised player i guess

1: Fish's playstyle is interesting to me, aggressive town is something seen often, but by drawing attention to himself he could be letting his teammate fly under the radar (assuming he has one).

a part of me kinda likes the paranoid waffling here but don't think it's strongly AI

2: Read back a few pages. Teacher, you said you got a townlean from Gardenia. Why?

this makes me want to check uncrowned's gard/eth0s slot trajectory; did a ctrl+f and there's a lot of mentions. kinda might be noteworthy that he talks a lot about gard when she's a hot subject but not when people aren't talking about her. but then he talks quite a lot about eth0s so i don't think this is enough to be A Tell. at this point in uncr's ISO i'd actually have him s/s with JV before eth0s

134 i can kinda feel the wheels turning but i don't think the post really alignment tells; i didn't really like the gyro push d1 bc it was a little purposeless. nullread on gard persists, no trajectory on fishy as of yet

this could be a post sidestepping two people he KNOWS are town or it could be a towny who isn't really sure how to progress the game
checks out from either
i kinda have a policy for forming lazy reads of "if you can see it from a town pov without bending yourself into a pretzel, hey it's probably just town" - at that surface analytical level i could see this as town.

it's kinda worth noting at this point uncr is playing friendly to chib/salad and doesn't ~townread~ fishy but is also playing friendly to him; the gyro SR is pretty easy to have (I think he is scum because he is not helping) and he isn't engaging with gard or JV. he talks around gard a fair bit but it's indirect at the start of the game. using this as framing for the first readlist which i'll talk abt in a bit more length...

I wanted to see your reasoning since I've got Gardenia still in my "null" category for now, at the time I hadn't really noticed anything from her that pointed me in either direction, personally.

As for your answer, it's okay. The reasoning makes sense, but I feel like the vote on Fish is the easiest one to make at the moment, since he's been the most aggressive player thus far.

this is like, worth reading but i don't think AI
will circle back when discussing the readlist

226 defensive tonality and still slowmoving; again could really come from either of {scum not sure how to move, town still tryna sink his teeth in}

Sure. Usually I hesitate to jump on the person who is being the "loudest in the room" as I feel like it's the obvious choice, especially for people who COULD be evil as the louder people are more likely to toss out accusations and make themselves appear more guilty in the process. However, most of my experiences with these aggressive types in other social deduction games is they've usually been either town trying to catch people slipping, or they're a jester (obviously this role list doesn't include that, so that's not a worry here)

However, I want to keep my mind open to the possibility of FF being a distraction for someone else assuming he has one. I see my mistake though, since the only way we'd even be able to figure that out would be via a lynch. Sitting on the fence in that scenario doesn't really make sense. I was hesitant to push since I'm not sure how that sort of thing plays out here. I'll commit to reading FF as an aggressive townie, rather than a scum at this stage.

And you're right, it is a bit odd. My only logic behind it is that Gardenia had been given a TL by two people I believe at that point (Teacher and Salad, who was in your slot before) whereas I had been read as null at that point and hadn't really been asked for my opinions. I'm starting to understand now that it'll be more helpful if I take an actual stance on things instead of waiting for others to do so.

Sure

this post kinda does two things;
firstly: uncrowned is called to evaluate his reads on fishy and gard.
secondly: the stance that pushing fishy as the noisy player was the "easy" thing to do - i actually found fishy's earlygame pretty scummy. it's totally possible this comes from a mindset which is itself nervous to push fishy but equally possible it's just a newbie to forum mafia.


readlist incoming:

My reads thus far

just a synopsis of thoughts:

my slot

- agree salad/datisi did a good job of propelling the game; this is fine/doesn't feel opportunistic or pockety

fishy

- i actually pegged this read for a partner when i was tunnelling fishy :/ the post in question is mason distancing; i didn't really get "aggressive townplay" but as mentioned just now i'm not really sure how i'd feel if i was a newbie in this game

teacher

- 102 is kinda towny on a policy/surface level; i'd actually call the "teacher/fish being a tvt" comment as a crumb he spotted the mason thing but i don't really get the impression he did

gardenia

- this read isn't telling me a lot... uncr sat firmly null on gard until called to action and others explained why they were townreading gard, but the readlist indicates he's felt the need to evaluate the slot firsthand (rather than just sheeping their reads). the qualifier around including fishy in the trio and just the language around "I believe the vote on me was when we started 'redoing' the RVS." might be kind of unintended distancing language but not a strong feeling vs. rest of his iso

JV

- policy level i LOVE jv pushing someone for pushing low activity! i don't expect uncr to like it tho; there isn't really a read on this slot. i feel like the jv post he talks about probably could have invoked some more energy if uncr was being pushed incorrectly. maybe

bugspray

- this nullread is fine

Marionette

- it is an interesting standard that mari is scum for randomvoting teacher but gard is town in spite of randomvoting uncr. ultimately i do agree the vote was kinda offbeat tho.

Gyro

- i don't think gyro really got a fair run d1 but i think i need to accept that the towntell i saw was pretty abstract, and that it's totally fair for town to make this misread.

from a wagonomics pov ultimate lynch wagon had 3+ town on it including the mason duo;

Gyro Zeppeli (5) - Uncrowned,

teacher

, JacksonVirgo,

Fuzanlong

,

Formerfish

so don't have a strong feeling on whether this read was opportunistic or not


this is one of those things the wiki tells us to never post but it's on my mind SO
if i was scum with anyone but uncrowned i think i'd be setting up an uncrowned/eth0s scumteam for the mislynch
the way his read on gardenia is sitting null until he's called to action on it and then pivots to a somewhat overqualified townread just looks v convenient if we operate in hindsight and if JV is town
that being said i don't actually really think the trajectory is super scum indicative; i can also attribute town motive to it so aorn i don't feel like i have a smoking gun

while i'm typing this i'm realising JV who i was hoping to talk to about it has gone afk; fishy still awol; i'll do some housework & resume ISO later.
i'm kinda hoping for a clear or a smoking gun or a partner clear. i kinda want to clear JV/uncr off the last couple of pages but i want to do more work on this. tl;dr working on the first ~10 pages i don't think uncr has strongly alignment told.

uncr if you feel i'm misrepresenting or misunderstanding anything pertinent, please chime in; if it's just playstyle/general mafia theory stuff just maybe have a think about whether it'll help sorting you or whether it's better to wait til endgame

if you're unsure i'd rather have the conversation than not have it

[the worst]

Hey guys, sorry for being away - that earlier thing really killed my mood/motivation for the game :/ I'm gonna try and get back into it though since it looks like things are picking up.

Here's my reads!
townlean
- datisi (Saladman27); salad was lower for me, but your reads/comments boosted you higher! I get good vibes off of you and feel like you're genuinely trying to help out.
- teacher; has asked a lot of questions and done a lot to progress the game. I'm not sure about him but a townlean for now.
- Uncrowned; was eh before but I liked your recent posts!

null/??? people
- bugspray (Chibiie); Chibiie posted a lot I think, but looking back on it, not a lot of it was game related. As for bugspray, I don't have much to go on but would like to hear more about your me and fish being mafia theory? I don't get what you said in 250 (fingers crossed the link works)
- JacksonVirgo (MedicalCoke); basically got a clean slate since coke posted nothing. Hasn't said that much so far so idk.
- Formerfish; Don't know why he's so high on the recent lists? A wildcard for me.

Scumlean
- Gyro Zeppeli; Ok maybe closer to null based on your recent posts, but I kinda didn't like your "haha don't care"ness when you were asked questions earlier (dodging?)
- Marionette; The teacher vote was weird and we still don't have any explanation :/

I probably missed some things so I'm also gonna look through the thread and see if there's anything else I can reply to!

at a surface level I think this is a fairly bad look for eth0s regardless of partner in jv/uncrowned

I'm kinda trotting back and forth around page 10 atm because I have this weird feeling Uncrowned's posts might be townier than I'm giving them credit for at like a pure tone / face value level; pinkie promise I'm going to get back to trying to draw his alignment out of his ISO.

[JacksonVirgo]

Hey guys, sorry for being away - that earlier thing really killed my mood/motivation for the game :/ I'm gonna try and get back into it though since it looks like things are picking up.

Here's my reads!
townlean
- datisi (Saladman27); salad was lower for me, but your reads/comments boosted you higher! I get good vibes off of you and feel like you're genuinely trying to help out.
- teacher; has asked a lot of questions and done a lot to progress the game. I'm not sure about him but a townlean for now.
- Uncrowned; was eh before but I liked your recent posts!

null/??? people
- bugspray (Chibiie); Chibiie posted a lot I think, but looking back on it, not a lot of it was game related. As for bugspray, I don't have much to go on but would like to hear more about your me and fish being mafia theory? I don't get what you said in 250 (fingers crossed the link works)
- JacksonVirgo (MedicalCoke); basically got a clean slate since coke posted nothing. Hasn't said that much so far so idk.
- Formerfish; Don't know why he's so high on the recent lists? A wildcard for me.

Scumlean
- Gyro Zeppeli; Ok maybe closer to null based on your recent posts, but I kinda didn't like your "haha don't care"ness when you were asked questions earlier (dodging?)
- Marionette; The teacher vote was weird and we still don't have any explanation :/

I probably missed some things so I'm also gonna look through the thread and see if there's anything else I can reply to!

at a surface level I think this is a fairly bad look for eth0s regardless of partner in jv/uncrowned

I'm kinda trotting back and forth around page 10 atm because I have this weird feeling Uncrowned's posts might be townier than I'm giving them credit for at like a pure tone / face value level; pinkie promise I'm going to get back to trying to draw his alignment out of his ISO.

I will give my opinion on the other post soon, but notice how gard talked about Uncrowned like they're talkin' to him but not the others? Not sure if that means shiz, but yep