Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[Titus]

Question.
How many SEs are now in newbie games?
I played some games with 5 SEs, but there are only 3 SEs here.
Which is awesome, because there are only 2 players who can do reading here

Wait 3 SEs...only 2 can read? Huh?

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.05

Soča River, Slovenia

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Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Blatant Scum

(3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf

Map Wolf

(2): faüstiv, GuiltyLion,

Rise

(1): Blatant Scum

Not Voting

(3): Gjt, Titus, TheGildedSun

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-11-20 10:30:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

[Titus]

SEs are much better than newbies in reading and I am the exception proving the rule.

Actually, not true. Reading is about assessing the emotional state. I'd argue newbies are better at reading each other, SEs know the jargon and read each other better.

[Blatant Scum]

I participate. I told you I want to push rise. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.

[TheGildedSun]

My apologies. I didn't realize this had started.

Hey Titus, welcome back!

After you reassess, could you provide some insight or reads on some of the players, it would be interesting to hear from you so we could get an understanding of your slot.


Gjt- like to hear from you again too.

[Titus]

also i lied about my blatantscum TR. I think he's kinda null actually, I just wanted to see how people would react if I TR a slot that was being shadethrown; see if anyone panicked.

Interesting gambit. What did you learn? How can we trust your other reads?

[Titus]

what i still don't get is why blatant scum self voted. I don't want to see someone else defend their actions as wifom, i want to see them say it themself.

I agree with this.

[Blatant Scum]

I like how people tries to find sense behind my actions.

[Titus]

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

[Titus]

VOTE: Map Wolf

[Gjt]

reason for tr on GayBabyJAilor is that, whilst he is being scumread, his playstyle or tone hasn't changed. He's not panicking. He's a new player and I think GBJ as scum here would have wilted a bit but I'm seeing no signs of that.

Doesn't rule them out either, but is it also first game here or first game because if it's just here statement means nothing really. I would rather go for this lynch, but looks like I'll be alone there. Not one for joining wagons for sake of it

VOTE: GBJ

[Titus]

Gjt, would I be correct in assuming you TR both wagons?

[Map Wolf]

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

I'm not trying to push for a lynch on BS. I want to put some pressure on them because if he is town, then he's not contributing enough.

[Gjt]

Gjt, would I be correct in assuming you TR both wagons?

Not 100% sure just yet, one more than the other, but for now I wanna stick with my original guy feeling and stick with it

[Gjt]

*gut feeling

[faüstiv]

Nothing scummy about that now was there

actively lurking is a scumtell in my book

You don't seem to be a newbie.

VLA this weekend.

V/LA noted --P

My apologies. I didn't realize this had started.

hmmmmmmm

[faüstiv]

also i lied about my blatantscum TR. I think he's kinda null actually, I just wanted to see how people would react if I TR a slot that was being shadethrown; see if anyone panicked.

Interesting gambit. What did you learn? How can we trust your other reads?

nothing really. I was hoping for something bigger

[Rise]

Agree in that the list didn't say much, but is that really scum indicative? Could it not be a townie trying their best? I do think there's parts in it that's worth questioning but your full tunnel on them really wasn't something I could agree with.

As for my vote on Blatant, like I said, I find their behaviour really weird and I'll clarify once I'm on a computer (which is soon). I'm not a fan of their recent posts either so I'm happy with where my vote is right now.

Rise - how do you think scum would be more likely to play:
1) trying to pretend to be townie, being helpful, making statements that look like they're doing something, avoiding behavior that draws attention or gets them voted (my impression of Map Wolf so far)
2) trolling, being weird, calling further attention to the fact that people are already voting/suspecting them (my impression of Blatant Scum so far)

I strongly disagree with you that scum are more likely to play in style of #2 than #1.

This isn't a good point imo. Like, you're using generalizations to say: just because something isn't likely, it isn't possible. That's obviously wrong. Shouldn't all possibilities should be considered, or at least recognised? Anyways, to answer the question, I think it depends on the person. Strongly disagree is so strong.

More importantly, I'm curious why you keep dismissing/defending Blatant's behaviour. Do you townread all trolls? What would it take for a troll to be suspicious to you?

Have more thoughts on Map/Guilty/Blatant etc which I will share soon.

[Rise]

Agree in that the list didn't say much, but is that really scum indicative? Could it not be a townie trying their best? I do think there's parts in it that's worth questioning but your full tunnel on them really wasn't something I could agree with.

As for my vote on Blatant, like I said, I find their behaviour really weird and I'll clarify once I'm on a computer (which is soon). I'm not a fan of their recent posts either so I'm happy with where my vote is right now.

Rise - how do you think scum would be more likely to play:
1) trying to pretend to be townie, being helpful, making statements that look like they're doing something, avoiding behavior that draws attention or gets them voted (my impression of Map Wolf so far)
2) trolling, being weird,

calling further attention to the fact that people are already voting/suspecting them

(my impression of Blatant Scum so far)

I strongly disagree with you that scum are more likely to play in style of #2 than #1.

Also (forgot to add), Blatant doesn't actually seem like he's calling attention to himself imo. He generally makes irrelevant comments and the occasional weird one that makes people go "what?" before they move on cause he doesn't explain himself/there are other people to question. He's slipping under the radar.

[Rise]

Nevermind, I'm gonna go to sleep. Will make those posts/catch up later.

[GayBabyJailor]

I like how people tries to find sense behind my actions.

how about you actually try to explain yourself instead of forcing us to speculate your motives?

[GuiltyLion]

To be honest, I still don't like GBJ pushing Blatant. It feels a bit fake or convenient. Still, if Blatant is town, then their behavior is really not useful at all. I will VOTE: Blatant Scum as I don't like their posts myself tbh:

65 is a pretty stupid post. Their entire posting history consists of short comments with little substance.

To be clear, what I don't like is GBJ seemingly pushing him quite hard.

This has already been spoken about. As I, and Guilty Lion have said, it seems too obvious. Why in the world would mafia attempt to stand out? Unless they're trolling. If they're trolling, then maybe looking into a policy vote. I'm pretty sure a slot can't just refuse to contribute to the game, regardless of alignment.

Is it just me or does Map Wolf's sudden vote on Blatant seem a little contrived? He provides no backing other than things that have been mentioned over and over and I feel like it's in an attempt to move the heat off of him back onto Blatant.

I'm not trying to push towards a lynch. I'm trying to have Blatant participate more.

Rise defending me in 127 feels a bit convenient. Like "Look, I was right about his alignment!" in the case that I'm lynched and flipped as town. I do agree on their criticism of Blatant in 131.

Also I liked Map Wolf's #126. It answered a lot of my questions for his earlier list so I'm not gonna question further.

Don't like this post. There's nothing wrong with questioning me. There are people that should perhaps be questioned more, but questioning me is never going to hurt town as it forces the actual scum to give away information.

So I don't really like the whole defending me thing. If they are town, then there's nothing wrong with questioning me and no need to defend me hard. If they are scum, then trying to appear on my side is pretty convenient.

mmmmmm I kinda townread these posts blah

[GuiltyLion]

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

cmon Titus this isn't really saying anything

[GuiltyLion]

This isn't a good point imo. Like, you're using generalizations to say: just because something isn't likely, it isn't possible. That's obviously wrong. Shouldn't all possibilities should be considered, or at least recognised? Anyways, to answer the question, I think it depends on the person. Strongly disagree is so strong.

More importantly, I'm curious why you keep dismissing/defending Blatant's behaviour. Do you townread all trolls? What would it take for a troll to be suspicious to you?

Have more thoughts on Map/Guilty/Blatant etc which I will share soon.

First things first - I don't believe I ever said "it isn't possible" that Blatant was scum. Can you point out where you got that from my post?

Second, you need to read this - Mafia: Balance of Possibilities versus Probabilities

The idea that "all possibilities should be considered" is scum-motivated, in practice that mostly just means using unlikely explanations to paint likely town slots as scum. Especially in D1 the odds of nailing scum are pretty low and the vast majority of D1 wagons and scumreads are on town players. As a result it's far more important to be in the mindset of answering "why is that slot scum?" than to be thinking "why is that slot town?", especially once you get to "unlikely possibilities". Again, most slots are town by default.

I don't townread all trolls, I just think trolling is not alignment indicative most of the time. Blatant would be suspicious to me if he were making arguments/votes that I thought were disingenuous or unlikely to come from a town mindset. And I haven't seem him do that yet this game.

You also didn't even answer the question, of whether you think #2 is more likely than #1.

I think this reply is written from the mindset of someone who wants to keep pushing a Blatant Scum lynch rather than genuinely believes that slot is scummy, and I think if you had good arguments for him being scum you'd be using them instead of trying to poke holes in my default townread argument. I also have a gut dislike of the difference in how you approached Map Wolf's slot vs Blatant's slot but I haven't had coffee yet this morning and I don't feel like I can put it into good words yet as a result.
VOTE: Rise

[GayBabyJailor]

what i want to hear about blatant scum is from themself. I don't want rise's scumreads and guiltylion's NAIs, i want to see blatant defend themself for once