Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 - Snowdin Snowdown

[popsofctown]

The first thing I want to say is I feel extremely, extremely bad about posting an incorrect hammer VC. It is a total failure as a mod. At the time of that VC my V/LA had not quite started, but I was more rushed than usual because I wanted to pack, and go to sleep early to decrease the likelihood of missing my flight. That is a terrible nonexcuse.

Since it was a spare hammer and not a lynch hammer, it did not reveal Oversoul's alignment, so it was reversible. Oversoul actually was added to the spare PT, but was removed before he could view it.

The immense bulk of my guilt with the bad VC was that it was borne of interpreting Xayah's spare vote differently, which may have been influenced by knowledge of her alignment. May have - I actually had trouble with Oversoul and Wisdom the whole game, because I have some kind of words-synesthesia I guess. There was at least edit in the preview phase of a day 1 vote count where I had to correct unswapping Wisdom and Oversoul also (because I've played Pokémon enough to identify his avatar as a Whimsicott, and like 6/9 vowel and consonant sounds overlap or somesuch). So maybe I would have made the same mistake with Xayah as town.

No one in the game discussed moderator thought processes. It's possible someone used it to inform their read but refrained from repeating the line of thinking in thread because it is dirty pool, which would be sportsmanlike.

I told myself I would never mod again during the one or two days afterwards, but I've forgiven myself likely more than I should. I only really want to run Mini Themes, though, and coincidentally the faction unfairly harmed by gross negligence was being played by the Mini Theme list mod, so she may very will reject my /ins to the Mini Theme queue, in which case I will take off from modding for at least several months. I apologize to all slots in the game for the mistake again

[popsofctown]

wow post 1000 pagetop of infinite shame perfecto

[mastina]

Yo Oversoul you kinda gamethrew by killing me, because, uhh yeah…was never going to vote anyone other than Elements here.
Also kinda gamethrew by killing the people who scumread Elements the whole game, e.g. Nymph.

[Something_Smart]

I only really want to run Mini Themes, though, and coincidentally the faction unfairly harmed by gross negligence was being played by the Mini Theme list mod, so she may very will reject my /ins to the Mini Theme queue

Lmao don't be so hard on yourself. I've seen mod errors way way worse than that and people don't get punished unless there's a consistent pattern of negligence. You are a very good mod, everyone makes mistakes

[Ginngie]

Honestly I wouldn't call it a game throw

Literally everyone except for Chemist had the wool pulled over their eyes

[popsofctown]

I was immensely confused by the use of the scum-controlled deadline decision to spare mafia.
The correct play was definitely to fight a townie and treat that as the "bonus kill", rather than public cop someone from your own team as a cost to unlock a "bonus kill"

[popsofctown]

I was immensely confused by the use of the scum-controlled deadline decision to spare mafia.
The correct play was definitely to fight a townie and treat that as the "bonus kill", rather than public cop someone from your own team as a cost to unlock a "bonus kill"

That said, I come to this site for mountainous style social deduction games, not games that emphasize mechanics strategy. So the lack of reward for sparing mafia (= getting mafia townread) is a weakness in the setup I'd like to fix. I don't think I can run this neutral route again, it reinforced what I already believed about it : its EV is perfectly fine for both town and scum, but it has an unnatural relationship with the pacifist route and totally flipflops on the significance of the spare area. Nacho emphasized early on in this game that the spare room can be used to protect strong players and guarantee they participate in endgame, but clearly that's not the case if the game goes neutral - the mafia was able to ensure neither Ginngie nor Rakan participate further in the game.

[popsofctown]

"definitely" is a strong word, there's no -proof- fighting is better since either Ginngie or Rakan would have to be permitted to participate in LyLo. But I view having twice as many possible deepwolves as powerful.

[mastina]

Honestly I wouldn't call it a game throw

Literally everyone except for Chemist had the wool pulled over their eyes

Yeah, everyone except for Chemist had the wool pulled over their eyes; that's precisely why it was a gamethrow.
Everyone else was townreading Over soul, yet instead of bringing literally any of them to lylo and instead of night killing the only player with the correct read, they took the player with the correct read to lylo.

They could've, TWICE, spared Oversoul. Xayah could've hammered that spare on either D3 or D4, but did so neither day.

They could've not confscummed Xayah, and used the doublekill to kill me and one of the two townies from the spare PT. Yes, that'd leave whichever of Ginngie/Rakan alive and conftown that they didn't kill, but it'd leave both Chemist/Elements as not conftown, and leave both Xayah and Oversoul's alignments unknown.

Plus the night kill on what was a free mislynch, and all the night kills on all the people who had the worst reads.

Scum doing literally any other actions than what they did, would've won this game, but they basically did the gamethrowing move at every opportunity, including the night before lylo.

I think that in terms of day play, scum should've won due to both being so widely townread, but by making bad calls on where to vote/spare/kill, they handed the town the only condition where town could've won.

[the worst]

I told myself I would never mod again during the one or two days afterwards, but I've forgiven myself

This was an ambitious game to run. I can tell by your posts in the mod pt (which I couldn't keep up with completely - I'd need to sit down and really digest the setup) that you were passionate about running this well. The flavour, vcs, role PMs etc. were all really clean.

Errors happen, especially when you're less experienced. I'm glad you've forgiven yourself because I think you should.

Well modded pops. And well played both teams, grats town on the win! Great 3p!

[popsofctown]

Oh, yeah, there's a mod PT. It's not designed for public consumption, it has posts totally edited in over older posts when I know I don't need the old one and stuff that's uncorrected. But I might as well release it.

It doesn't have any sort of "ok N2 X sent me Y" this game is way too mountainous to need that.

[popsofctown]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11290596

[Chemist1422]

Incorrect VC had no effect on my read at all

I had actually forgotten it happened

[the worst]

from a design pov the mod pt shld be a very spicy read

[the worst]

we don't rule against angleshooting but I think we're generally ntb at not angleshooting tbh

[Something_Smart]

Uno, Dos, Tres, Cuatro, Cinco, and Seissy

Goddammit now I have pretty fly for a white guy stuck in my head

[Chemist1422]

5 bucks chemist votes Oversoul because MS loves to throw

:dabemoji:

[Nachomamma8]

I loved the setup. I loved the playerlist overall. The game itself was... questionable?

I think one of the major strengths of the setup is that it very highly rewards a town that is engaged in the beginning and it very highly rewards a town that coordinates well together. We didn't do that. In particular, feel the constant quickhammers obliterated the opportunity for either side to actually get on a roll and would heavily encourage everyone involved not to do something like that in general. It frustrates me in particular because it's disrespectful - to the person you're quickhammering, of course, but also to everyone else who might want to contribute, and it's incredibly pro-scum to cut off the discussion in the way that it happened - I wanted to post about my townread on Elements which possibly changes the flow of 3p LyLo, giving me more time to post means that there's a chance for me to town myself which means maybe I don't get lynched instead of killed, making Oversoul keep up in a decently paced game means that he doesn't get to lurk as much as he did here, etc.

I think the "double barrel idea" is a great one and also would make the neutral route a bit more interesting although I love the idea of the neutral route in general - seeing towns attempt to figure out whether they're getting better townreads or better scumreads and follow that route accordingly would be pretty interesting.

Pops, if you run a .3 please let me know - would love to play!

[Oversoul]

I feel good enough about my play to say this is a win for me. Fun last scum game on site so I’m glad that everyone had a good outcome.

[Ginngie]

you were a pleasure to play with

[popsofctown]

from a design pov the mod pt shld be a very spicy read

Oh yeah there are a bunch of rejected redesigns in the mod PT.
First time I just made the dead players suffer but this time I hid it in the mod PT.

[Ginngie]

No, if you explained I wouldn't be scumreading you about your actions even if I didn't care about the explanation itself.

It's about the effort and transparency of thought heehee

Someone gets it!

yo you wanna join me on a Soul wagon

reading my ISO to review and I think this is hilarious given hindsight

[popsofctown]

If I run Undertale again it will be a 2.0 as I don't think I can use this neutral route again. It will go to Double Barrel or something else.

[Chemist1422]

I feel good enough about my play to say this is a win for me. Fun last scum game on site so I’m glad that everyone had a good outcome.

:c

[volxen]

Damn Oversoul, nice job with the deepwolfing! I only briefly skimmed portions of this game but I thought that you were likely town and that Elements was likely scum -- some of Element's posts felt similar to his posts from Undertale 1. It seems like Elements and I may have tainted the Pacifist route from the first game -- everyone in this game seemed really opposed to following the Pacifist route. I still think that it's a good path to try and follow as town as long as there are enough strong townreads still alive and if you can delay sparing the PR to day 3, and spare strong townreads on days 1, 2, and 4.

Pops I hope that you are planning to run this setup again, as I still need to play this setup as town (preferably as the PR ).