[SETUP] Undertale Semi-Open

[Something_Smart]

In the mod PT I have been posting lots of brainstormed ideas for a new neutral route, since it is the route in the setup I am most unhappy with. I have rejected like 4 ideas already after calculating EVs. (The EV on the current neutral route is fine, but the EV changes very little when the town spares scum, which I view as a flaw.)

I finally have one that seems to have acceptable EVs, and retains the property of being qualitatively different from both pacifist and genocide, and meets the goal of punishing towns for sparing scum. It is very iffy to spare exactly two players, but the original neutral route has that issue anyway.
My nickname for this one is Double Barrel. Some of the inspiration for the design was Nachomamma8's notion about sparing players for being strong rather than just being town aligned, and this setup rewards that moreso than the previous neutral.

I welcome any feedback on this potential design.

Neutral Route: In all other cases, the game enters neutral route. The members of the spared PT immediately kill two players from the main thread. If there are two spared players, each spared player picks a kill in the spared PT without nokilling or targeting the other spared player's target. If there's an odd number of spared players, a combination of players to be killed is selected by majority vote.
After these kills resolve, the spared players are returned to the game. There is no Night 4 nightkill.
The game then continues with the spare option removed and the town win condition of "kill all mafia".

Yes I am not positive how I want the 2 spared players game to work. I thought about different things like them each choosing secretly or picking in order of spared PT seniority. I like having the shots be guaranteed to be different. Currently the 2 spared players route has the lowest EV of all neutral routes (a bug/feature of the original setup as well), so that made me more willing to put off figuring out what to do on that. It's possible a completely different outcome just for exactly two spares is the best thing to do.

Do you mean you don't think it benefits scum to get scum spared in the new neutral route, or in the old one? The benefit to sparing scum is admittedly somewhat subtle in Double Barrel. Scum just controls 2, 1, or <democratic influence on 2> nightkills. But also, mafia cannot be targeted by the nightkills, so even if there's a one out of three scum who doesn't successfully influence the NK decision that scum has the benefit of surviving at least to day 5, where they can push for a mislynch on another spared PT player, whereas if no scum are spared it's possible for scum to lose before a single spared PT post can be quoted and used to push a mislynch.

I think Double Barrel rewards sparing scum more than original Undertale Semi-Open but would quickly say that what I have put down in Undertale Smalltown more dramatically and excitingly rewards the scum for sparing scum compared to either setup. There might be something even better than Double Barrel that doesn't have the complexity cost of Undertale Smalltown, but I haven't thought of it yet.

Ok how about this:

Dating Game:
If exactly two players were spared, the game enters Dating Game. The players in the spared PT try to date. If either player is scum, the date is a failure. The spared players are returned to the game, then the mafia performs strong kills until there is one more town player than mafia. The mafia grants either the (previously) spared players or the (previously) unspared players one day phase of lynch proof.

If both players are town, the date is a success! The spared PT players become lovers and one shot bodyguards. A mafia goon becomes lovers with the player of his choice, choosing mafia if able. The remaining two players also become lovers. There is no night four. The town fights a lover pair, and then the lover relationships end.

In both cases, the town win condition becomes "kill all the mafia", and the mafia must prevent that.

[Something_Smart]

Dating Game seems really random and weird in a way that would detract from the simplicity of the setup.

As for Double Barrel, I may be misunderstanding, but it seems like a step in the wrong direction, because spared scum have even less of an influence on who gets killed.

[popsofctown]

Dating Game seems really random and weird in a way that would detract from the simplicity of the setup.

As for Double Barrel, I may be misunderstanding, but it seems like a step in the wrong direction, because spared scum have even less of an influence on who gets killed.

It's the difference between going to a Walmart with 100$ or going to Walmart with 150$ and a long grocery list, I guess. The investigation effect from the original setup funnels the factional nightkill onto certain targets, especially when a solo scum has been spared.

The RC-style popularity ranking EVs put Double Barrel in line with the Pacifist and Genocide routes, with a mafia member who is 5th most townread in the game paired with an obvscum player barely winning the game. The previous neutral route doesn't have this property, being the 3rd most townread player in the game doesn't ensure victory in old neutral.

I can see how compromising out to a 0-1 preferred NKs in a democratic process in the spared PT is less exciting than two full kills for the mafia.
But giving the mafia those kills, then spotlighting specifically the deepwolf that triggered the bonus kill with an investigative effect means it's less of a reward.

[Something_Smart]

Is it public who submitted what kill in 2-2? Can they target each other?

[Something_Smart]

In short: are you assuming spared scum will use that kill as a NK or be LAMIST and use it as a lynch?

[popsofctown]

Kind of have to answer the questions backwards : as I have it now, the kill has to be a LAMIST vigging, because spared players cannot kill eachother, and since they cannot kill eachother and there is no N4 kill, it is guaranteed that both spared players will be able to post publically in the game thread and post who they killed, which PoEs responsibility for the other kill.

While that has a townsided impact on 2 player double barrel with spared scum needing to convince the town about a "misvig", 2 player Double Barrel is the most scumsided number of spared players, with mafia only needing a scum player to be 6th towniest in the game rather than 5th for all other routes and neutral subroutes.
I guess that's only 1 rank different from 5th, but it also puts the game on evens, and since I've mainly been the one running evens and I like to sadistically punish towns for failure to deadline compromise that should be another scumsided dynamic. So I think that's ok.

[popsofctown]

Wait, actually since it is already LyLo, you can lie about who you shot and do a flat 1v1 against the other spared player. If that's how you want to live your life.

That's pretty interesting actually.

If the clean spared player shot your partner and you truthfully claim your kill, the spared player is almost fullcleared and you can go for either of 2 viable lynches.
If the clean spared player shot your partner and you go into the game saying "I'm the one who shot <partner>" you set up a lynch-all-liars 1v1 and all of the unspared players are fullcleared.

[Something_Smart]

It doesn't seem like scum benefit from being spared then, unless they want to 1v1 (which would be kinda like how it was before).

[popsofctown]

Specifically in 2-2 neutral, or you don't think scum ever benefit from being spared?

I think towns are going to hardly ever go for 2-2 neutral so I think it's not a big problem if 2-2 neutral is the most poorly designed arm of the setup.

[Something_Smart]

In all neutral, I think. Scum don't really get any control over the kills if they have to be LAMIST with them, so being spared doesn't help them.

Also 2-2 shouldn't be worse than the others because then it makes the choice of whether to kill or spare on D4 obvious.

[popsofctown]

It is fundamentally difficult to reward the mafia for sparing mafia in neutral, because if the reward is public in any way then you cast the parity cop effect on the scum PT.

The "failed dating game" scenario illustrates how drastic and absurd it feels like you have to go with the reward in order for it to feel unambiguously positive that you got scum spared.

[popsofctown]

I definitely don't feel like I disagree, I just can't come up with something even better right now.

Double Barrel does remove some bizarre decision trees where it's possible scum gets checkmated BECAUSE scum got spared and I feel like that's reason enough to want to transition, even if I immediately would like to imagine something better than Double Barrel next.

One thing that crossed my mind was letting scum optionally hijack the 3p or 2p democratic kills if they would like, acknowledging it would cause the parity cop effect. I rejected it because complexity cost but that's probably way lower complexity cost than dating game et cetera??

[Something_Smart]

What about making all spared players doublevoters and saying scum only win when they get a majority of VOTES?

[Something_Smart]

With everything else being normal, no N4 kill but standard lynches/kills after that.

That might work, actually.

[popsofctown]

I'm counting that out on my fingers.
So far I think it looks like rank 5 ordinal EV with 3 spares

[popsofctown]

With 3 spares double voters is a good setup, with the desired rank 5 win condition and a meaningful benefit for spared scum: the double vote is actually what allows the setup to stay as good as rank 5 win condition even without the N4 nk
With 2 spares scum gains a rank 7 wincondition, creating a common pattern amongst neutral route designs that makes them very unattractive. If the spare/kill choice on N4 is going to be two sided an "except when" rule for 2 spares is likely to be necessary.
With 1 spares scum has rank 5 win condition. In addition to rank 5 win condition a rank 1 scum does not have to actually play out 3p LyLo due to the double vote, which means s/he's been conferred some advantage by the mechanic.

[popsofctown]

Double Voters seems strictly better than Double Barrel really. It is simpler.

Why don't you like Dating Game though
where is the love in your hearto

[chennisden]

this game has gotten so much love since may!

[popsofctown]

It's like my favorite setup
but also I've never played it lol

[popsofctown]

I've been thinking, almost all routes seem to not have a good incentive to consider sparing after three kills

[popsofctown]

After day 4, New Home is reached. The spare vote option is lost and these steps occur:
First, the town is awarded a

Mercy

bonus that gets stronger the more players that have been spared. Next, the spared players are

Return

ed to the game. Finally, there is a

Reckoning

if a mafia was spared. There is no night 4.

Mercy

bonuses:

• 1 players spared: The mafia must immediately kill two unspared players.
  
• 2 players spared: All players in the game become lover pairs for day 5's lynch. The spared players choose the lover pairings (spared seniority breaks voting ties).
  
• 3 players spared: All spared players become doublevoters.
  
• 4 players spared: If all spared players are townies, the moderator reveals both mafia. Then the town spares an additional player and grants that player bulletproof. All unspared players are removed from the game without flipping. All players become Beloved Princesses.

Return

:
In all cases, all spared players are returned to the game thread.

Reckoning

:
If any spared player was mafia, the mafia may perform two simultaneous kills. (

If the mafia skips the kills, it could become unclear that there was a reckoning.

)

Spoiler: previous rev

After day 4, New Home is reached. The spare vote option is lost and these steps occur:
First, the town is awarded a

Mercy

bonus that gets stronger the more players that have been spared. Next, the spared players are

Return

ed to the game. Finally, there is a

Reckoning

if a mafia was spared. There is no night 4.

Mercy

bonuses:

• 1 players spared: The mafia must immediately kill two unspared players.
  
• 2 players spared: All players in the game become lover pairs for day 5's lynch. The spared players choose the lover pairings (spared seniority breaks voting ties).
  
• 3 players spared: All spared players become doublevoters.
  
• 4 players spared: If all spared players are townies, the moderator reveals both mafia. Then the town spares an additional player and grants that player bulletproof. All unspared players are removed from the game without flipping. All players become Beloved Princesses.

Return

:
In all cases, all spared players are returned to the game thread.

Reckoning

:
If any spared player was mafia, the mafia may perform two kills, one after the other. (

If the mafia skips the kills, it could become unclear that there was a Reckoning.

)

[popsofctown]

I think exactly 2 spares has to be split off from odd number of spares because any mechanic is going to interact so differently with evens versus odds. At that point you want to present the information differently.

[popsofctown]

I measure setups primarily by what townread ranking from locked day1 reads a solo scum has to get to win the setup, with other considerations, for now I'm calling it RCV values after RC. For this setup 0 spares ("Genocide") is RCV6. 1 spare is RCV7. 2 spare: RCV6. 3 spare: RCV5. 4 spare: RCV5.

[popsofctown]

Even if you've lynched 3 days in a row, I think 0 spares and 1 spares should both look attractive in this setup (except when day 4 is LyLo, then you have to spare 0). If you can pick a player that you're never lynching this game anyway, truly truly, then sparing that player essentially forces the scum to shoot 2 people out of your 4 person PoE instead of shooting 1 as normal. However, if you need an additional day phase (and an additional flip) to draw a strong conclusion like betting the game on one player being town, then continuing to lynch is safer.
Sparing a player considered to be an asset early on and killing every other day looks viable too.

[popsofctown]

Loverizing with 2 spares comes out to a good expected value. There is some wiggle room for changing the balance on that one by picking different ways that lover pairs can be selected. My gut instinct is that rewarding the town for sparing two town is a good idea.
Actually an immediate revision I think I would want to make is for it not to be presented democratically at all, so that a senior-spared scum doesn't have to go through the chore of pretending to collaborate as s/he sets up harmful lover pairs. I think maybe it'd be better to lock the spared PT and give the senior member 48 hours to choose. Complexity cost is a valid criticism for loverizing being a distinct mechanic that comes up here, I just think it's necessary.

4 spares is almost identical to the 1.1 Pacifist route except mafia can shoot up to two players if they wish. It's a double edged sword because the victims are town control over the lynch, but also potential mislynch targets.

3 spares is the most complex one to evaluate for balance I think... oh, to the point it checkmates if one mafia is spared. Whoops. I have to rewrite it.
Since reckoning is based on players and winning is based on votes, you should almost all of the spared PT and control vote parity in 5p. You confscum the scum doublevoter then win.

Also I need to fix Reckoning putting lovers on odds.
Basically I need to fix Reckoning
Ok it should be fixed now, it's fewer kills.
Now Pacifist is even closer to old pacifist which is probably good.
EDIT:
Damnit.. even two kills is too many for Doublevoter.
I kind of wonder if I believe in double voter setups, given how unintuitive it seems.